What can Japan teach the global Church?

Mark Turman: [00:00:02] Welcome back. I'm Mark Turman and this is the Faith and Clarity podcast. We're here to help equip you to think, live and serve faithfully as God uh draws you closer to him. This week we're going to tell you a story as we talk about what God is doing to share his word and his love from Jerusalem to Japan by way of America and how God is doing that to plant churches uh in a very, very special part of the world. So we're going to jump right in. Uh today I'm talking with some new friends that are a part of what is called the Mustard Seed Network. And uh if you don't know what that is, that's okay. We're going to explain it to you. But we're talking today with Jay Greer, the president of Mustard Seed Network and Chad Farmer, who is vice president of operations and deployment. They are joining me all the way from Tokyo. And they are either the longest distance podcast that we've ever done on Faith and Clarity or the second furthest. I don't know which one's farther, either Tokyo or Australia, but we've reached at least that far. Uh so guys, welcome to the podcast.

Jay Greer: [01:10] Thank you. It it's good to start out at at least at first or second place. That's that's high on high honor to start off with.

Mark Turman: [01:18] Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, we're glad to have you guys uh sharing a little bit about what God's uh got you all wrapped up in. And uh I wanted to just start uh talking and reminding people about Japan. I can uh I can remember the first thing, the book, the first book I ever read about anything having to do with Japan was uh probably in the sixth or seventh grade and I read uh an American story about the war, uh called 30 seconds over Tokyo. Um and was just fascinated by the story and about the book. Y'all know probably from news that America talks, Americans talk a lot about China. It just seems to be all the time, China, China, China, China is our adversary, China is our competitor, China is the thing that we're all supposed to be most worried about. Um but tell us about what life in Tokyo, what life in Japanese culture is all about. Uh I learned some things just getting ready for this conversation. So kind of frame the country and the culture for us so that we have a an understanding of how that works.

Chad Farmer: [02:31] Yeah, Mark, I'm so thankful that we can just talk about it a little bit and hopefully share some things that will be helpful to everyone as they pray for God's church around the world. And as you mentioned, uh a lot of people, you know, think of Japan, especially in the last, you know, 80, 85 years where in our recent history where we think of the war, we think of World War II. Um and then we think in our, you know, more recent times where we have uh just Japan as a really strong ally uh in the region, in the East politically, Japan and the United States are have become very good friends since that time. Um but what's so interesting about Japan is just how old it is. Um it goes back uh centuries and centuries. Um and you know, we have a culture that has uh been very distinct uh from the rest of the world over on these islands, um starting a long, long time ago and then um, you know, kind of forming a national identity over time and um, you know, there was a distinct period in the history where it was closed off from the rest of the world, which really allowed this culture to become something that is is very different um from many other uh cultures even in uh the immediate region. So, uh it's it's a fascinating place. Um we're thankful that we get to work here. Our our biggest um draw to the country was honestly the need. Um and so we can talk more about the the history of of Christianity in Japan and what God has done over over the over the years. But um the the need here with um less than 1% of the population following Jesus, that is the biggest reason for for us being here and was the impetus for me starting to learn about the the culture itself was hearing very many there there are there are not many churches, um there are not many Christians, um we need more churches there, we need more workers. Um and at that point in my in my history it was, well, let's learn more about this culture that that has such a gospel need.

Mark Turman: [04:49] Yeah. Yeah. So frame that up from a standpoint, uh some of the things I was learning from y'all just by reading is like uh Chad, how many people are in Japan and talk about how urban the uh the population is. Uh you mentioned uh before we started recording that you were riding a train to come down and be a part of work and a part of this podcast. Uh lots of precise trains. I know uh you know, there's been a been a conversation here in Dallas where I'm based uh about building a a uh high-speed rail from Dallas to Houston and we keep praying for that because my daughter lives in Houston and we'd love to be able to move fast. But uh talk about just what it's like as an urban uh based population, uh how big it is and and uh also read some interesting stuff about the aging demographic of the country that seemed interesting.

Jay Greer: [05:46] Yeah. Yeah, and a lot of that I think the reason for the infrastructure and the reason for the things that we'll talk about here have a lot to do with the culture and the people. And and really, I always tell people that one thing that's fascinating if you just Google like Japan topographical map, um you see these 3D renderings of what this archipelago that is Japan looks like and it's extremely mountainous. Um with most of the population living in these lower lying uh valleys. I mean, Tokyo used to be a a giant swamp land in front of Mount Fuji until uh the Pacific Ocean. Um and so the things that I think a lot of people associate in their mind with Japan are a lot of the cultural exports, um that cause them to think a something about Japan. For example, uh I know also there in the Dallas area, you've got the Toyota headquarters and there's a big influence of automobiles, the the audio industry, the technology sector, um and all of these things. It's what's interesting is if you think about a majority of the things that Japan is well known for, particularly the cultural exports, Japan didn't invent. Uh they just took and made better. Um and and I think there's a lot of culturally influenced reasons for that. Um this kind of collectivist culture that we live in over here, uh that even has an effect on trains being on time, like you said, right? And so, uh I think last I heard about 127 million people, a little lower.

Chad Farmer: [07:32] We're going lower. We're we're we're we're diving. Uh the population's decreasing, but somewhere in that in that region.

Jay Greer: [07:39] Yes. Uh yeah, in the 120s of millions um of people. And uh over time more and more people are moving into the urban regions of Japan. Um the the economic incentive is there, the and and everything that comes with that, right? Being able to provide for a family, um being able to to do the things you feel like you want to do. There's just more opportunities um in the urban centers. It's it's it's quite fascinating to me too. I was just talking to someone recently about the cost of homes in rural Japan versus city center Tokyo where we are right now. Um you would not believe they are giving homes away in rural areas because they need people to be able to pay taxes to keep these small villages and towns going and to keep them afloat. Um and so, yeah, gosh, there's a lot that that goes into that. But a majority of people in these urban areas, you've got the Tokyo area of probably diving as well, but 36, 37 million people um in very large even urban centers within that. And so sometimes people come to Tokyo and they say like, well, just let's go downtown. And I kind of say, well, which downtown? Uh because I could take you to about 10 to 15 different downtowns. Um Yeah. And yeah, a majority of the people are living in these places. Um a lot of public transportation, buses, trains, uh a lot of people on bicycles. My my parents just recently visited. They're both in their 70s and marveled at all the people their age who are riding bicycles and and walking and, you know, in the rain and in the cold and um you know, that's that's how it is here. Um I turned 40 last month. And riding bicycles among traffic, right? Um not just Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And and what's what's interesting is is even among traffic and even with these higher urban centers, I think a lot of times, um especially from the context of the United States, we tend to associate urban centers with a lot more danger. Um and and interestingly, that is not the case here in Japan. Um yesterday was a national holiday in Japan and my 14 year old daughter took a train about an hour to ride to this area where we actually are now to meet a friend who also wrote an hour by herself. Um they spent the day shopping and she said she'd be home by five and of course, as a dad, there's always that, all right, call me if anything changes, you know, things like that. But the the even statistically, the amount of burglaries, crimes, things like that are are pretty low. Now, when we start to talk more about the um the spiritual climate and context of Japan, I think it begs the question of, well, what do we what are we counting as crime? Um and how are we actually looking at these things? Um but in terms of our day-to-day safety, it's it's an incredibly safe and wonderful place to raise a family.

Mark Turman: [10:57] Yeah. Talk about, talk about this aging thing a little bit because that seems to be a growing issue in um kind of global awareness really. Um you know, lots of emerging conversations around that here in the United States, falling birth rates. Uh a number of articles in the last year that we've uh kind of watched about the falling birth rate in places like Korea. Um you know, and then I, you know, I saw on some of y'all's information that, you know, people tend to live a long time in Japan, um well into their 80s. Um talk about how that frames the need and frames the culture that you're working with.

Chad Farmer: [11:35] Yeah, it is one of the biggest uh social concerns right now uh for Japan that the the the birth rate is declining, the population is aging. Um and right now, if you were to look at the sales of diapers uh in Japan, you would see that uh there are actually adult diapers out sell uh baby diapers in Japan as a little snapshot into the issue. Wow. Um and so uh the government has been trying to fix this for a long time, uh incentivize it. Um I've heard it say though, I've heard it said that, you know, governments have not figured out how to get people to have the kids they didn't already want to have. And so though there's all these, you know, financial incentives and tax breaks and and and uh great health care offered for uh for families with kids and and all these things, um when people don't have a a vision for uh raising kids for the next generation, um that I that I obviously we believe comes from, you know, a a biblical understanding of the God who instituted marriage and family. Um when God gives you that vision for the next generation and for raising a family and for marriage that reflects Christ's love for the church, um then yes, you'll go ahead and and and do this whole family thing. But unfortunately, I think that vision is lacking in different places in the world and sometimes uh you know, waxing and waning depending on the society. Um we could talk about that in other countries, but certainly in Japan, um a lot of people just look at other marriages they know or marriages they grew up with and say, I don't know if I want that or need that. I think I could be happy without it. And so it's a huge um it's a huge challenge and also it's a huge thing to celebrate um at churches when we see marriages and we get to pray for babies and um and and see people uh rejoicing in God's gift of family.

Mark Turman: [13:43] Yeah, and it's such such an interesting emerging conversation around the world just about the sanctity of life both young and new life in the form of babies, but also the sanctity of life when you get older. Um and especially in countries like this uh where these kind of demographic changes are happening and just important conversations that need to be framed in the gospel about, hey, just because you reach a certain age doesn't mean that your value disappears, right? Um and and then like I said, I would I would imagine as some of these young churches that y'all are working with are emerging that uh not only celebrating marriage but celebrating babies in a really big way and, you know, and we, you know, we we probably grew up here in America in many ways celebrating at least inside the church of, you know, children are a gift of a gift from God and we started with that premise. Um but more and more that's being challenged in the minds of people who don't have a biblical framework and don't understand. So, yeah, so very mountainous um and I think uh anybody would look and agree, a very beautiful place to live, right? Um just, yeah, just tell us what the like, what it's like in the climate of Tokyo and across the island uh or across the country. Is it good weather? Most of us haven't been there.

Jay Greer: [15:08] Uh well, having grown up in Oregon where I feel like if uh if you're from there, you enjoy the rain. Uh but and mountains and then moving to Texas and forgive me, Mark, uh there's not any seasons there. Um and all Texans listening, I suppose. Um I I am very delighted with Japan's weather, uh four distinct seasons, um you know, uh that do come in extremes depending on the part you're in. You know, we uh have friends up in Sapporo on the northern island. They just got the most snowfall, um fifth most snowfall on record ever in the month of January. Uh they set up for church one afternoon, came out and there was about a foot and a half of snow in the time that they were inside at church. Um so, uh Tokyo, I I tell people the weather here is sort of like the lion, the witch and the wardrobe when when it's discussed that it's always winter but never Christmas. Winter here is always sunny but never snowing. Um and the summers in Japan though can be pretty brutal, pretty humid. And uh when I talk to someone from Texas, it's always, oh, so like humid or like Houston rather. And it's like and then some, uh and then some. Um but a lot of recreation, um beautiful mountains. You've got the uh the Japanese Alps to the north and on the sea of Japan side. Um the some of the world's best skiing is here in Japan. Um and being several islands, there's uh a lot of beaches and ocean recreation uh that happen, uh a lot of fishing. Um you know, uh sort of the more you get into it, the more you realize it's like, yeah, this is all stuff that that's just a bit more spread out in the states, but it's all, you know, a bit more compact here, um here in Japan. So a lot of variety in landscape and and weather.

Mark Turman: [17:13] That's awesome. Now, I do have to correct you now, when it comes to Texas, we do have four distinct seasons and we can have all four of them inside of a 30 day or even an eight day period. This is true. This is true. Just like we recently, you know, we just recently had our ice storm for January and then, you know, 10 days later it's 85 degrees and you're starting to see the trees butt out. So we just we just have them all year round and we just kind of rotate them every three or four or five days, maybe a week or two. So we have them all but not for very long. So variety is the spice of Texas life. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So, okay, so that's it gives us a good framework to think through. Um and like I said, 123, 24 million people, uh you know, that's that's several Texas right there. Um and, you know, a lot of big urban centers, not just Tokyo, but uh some other ones and many uh you know, at least a dozen cities with more than a million people. Um how does how does all of that uh and we've talked a little bit already about just, hey, this country's gotten really good at moving people around. Um and and uh just kind of astounding that trains run as efficiently as they do, something that American cities have never figured out uh on any kind of a consistent basis. What are some of the opportunities and challenges of trying to start churches and do ministry in an environment where people live like this?

Chad Farmer: [18:47] Yeah, I think a lot of, you know, urban church planters around the world could talk about some of the challenges of cost and and space and finding a finding an area, you know, where you could gather, where you could um sing and not uh annoy the neighbors and all those kinds of things. So there's definitely space challenges for sure. Um transience is another big challenge that people in urban areas face where someone gets moved in for a job and then moved out. Um and so those things are absolutely hurdles um for church plants. Um and yet, you know, we've seen God answer prayers over and over again as we need space and answer prayers for for people as well. And in fact, some of the transience um has even become a blessing over time as God's allowed us to start a few churches in in a in different cities to where now some are moving from one church to the other and they know, hey, I'll find a similar one in this other city when I get transferred. And so, um yeah, there's a lot of challenges and yet, um just we get to see how, you know, God has been faithful all over the world and for so many years, um you know, as as the gospel's gone to so many contexts, um and he's faithful here with us too.

Mark Turman: [20:14] Yeah. So talk about, let's talk about a little bit more of the spiritual condition of Japan and uh your your network's very committed um to the biblical missional plan of planting faith communities, of planting churches. And I want our folks to get their arms around that. Obviously, uh we've kind of been in a generational reality where church planting has become very uh much a priority, you might say fashionable, uh in in lots of parts of the world, including the United States. Uh but set a broader context, you already mentioned uh you know, only 1% of less than 1% of the culture is Christian. Uh talk a little bit about the history of Christianity. Has Christianity ever been greater in terms of influence and presence? Did did something change? Did the war change that? Um what what's a little bit of the context and history around the spiritual life of the country?

Chad Farmer: [21:14] Well, if I can uh talk about history for just a bit, um and gosh, this will be just a fly over so fast. But um you know, Christianity first came into uh Japan in the 16th century, um through Jesuit missionaries. Uh it then grew in 50 years to 300,000 people, uh which is remarkable growth. Um but then over the next 50 years through persecution, uh it went down to almost nothing. There were a few secret Christians remaining. But those two uh sets of 50 years form the Christian century, uh as some church historians will talk about it. Um and then you have this time where there was very little activity at all, mostly just underground hidden uh Christians uh for a couple centuries until the mid 1800s, uh when the United States uh showed up into the uh Tokyo Yokohama Harbor and said, it's time to reopen to the world for trade. And so, uh Japan reopened, it became this, you know, kind of this uh late Renaissance for Japan. Um but also that's where missionaries were introduced, uh reintroduced to the country and Protestant uh missionaries for the very first time. So that was the second wave. Uh a third wave of Christian work would have been after World War II, um post 1945, uh where even General MacArthur is saying, uh Japan needs missionaries uh and made this big call and thousands moved in. And so, uh when you look back in history and say, okay, there was 300,000 new converts. We don't know how many were genuine and how many were for political or trade decisions. Um but 300,000 in a short amount of time when the population was 20 million uh across the entire country. Uh it's 1.5%. Japan has never had 2% of the population worshiping Jesus. Um so it's not ever had that uh that tipping point where the church uh really influences the society in the way that we would want to see the salt and light really go and make this big impact. Uh you could see a lot of impact that Christians across the years have had in hospitals and schools and different kinds of reform and good things like that. And yet, there's still just not been that huge critical mass. And so often, you know, we're we're talking about, well, we're praying for revival, yes, in a way, but really we're praying for that first great awakening where there would be this movement um of the spirit in Japan to bring people to the gospel and worship Jesus and um where we would see a a large uh portion of Japan uh born again and brought into God's people. So that's what we've been praying for and hoping for for a very, very long time.

Jay Greer: [24:21] Yeah, so it's really just go ahead, Chad. Go ahead. Okay. I was just say, you also in your in your question talked about church planting too and I think that's that has to be linked in all of our missional efforts, all of our evangelistic efforts, regardless of who you are or where you're from. Um because to be a Christian, to believe to to believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, to repent of your sins, to be baptized and to follow him, uh biblically happens in the context of the community that God has ordained in his word being the church. And so, uh Christians gather, we gather in churches. Um and in many places in the world, particularly in the United States, there are churches. There are uh biblically qualified men with 1 Timothy and Titus qualifications um that have been raised up by the Lord to be able to lead in a manner worthy of the scriptures. Um when when you have a history like we have here in Japan of so few people ever being Christian, um let alone uh growing in their faith. You know, you think about the countless commands we have in scriptures of um discipling the younger generation, older men to younger men, older women to younger women. Um families, you know, these sorts of things that have domino effects on generation after generation that in a place like the United States, you see as you drive down any road and see church after church after church after church. Um here there are no churches. And so there's still the need to go to the 99% of the population around us that has not heard and try to win some to Christ and share the good news of Jesus Christ with them in a way that they can hear and respond to and um invite them to respond to. Uh and then they become part of what the Bible says is Christ's body, right? And so these the body gathers together um in accordance with the scriptures. And so, uh the end goal too, if you look at Revelation is also the church. The church is, you know, the marriage supper of the lamb. The church is the eternity, the eternal bride of Christ. And so, um church centered missions is biblical missions. And so, um we want to be all about helping people hear the gospel, grow in their faith and gather into God glorifying um churches.

Mark Turman: [27:03] Yeah. Yeah, it's just it it's just hard for I I would imagine a bunch of us as Americans not in this culture to just even get our minds around that you you could go through any of these major cities and like never see a church. And and um uh so if they're if they're not Christian, what are they predominantly or what are some of the big what are the some of the big faith systems that you encounter when you try to have any kind of a spiritual conversation with somebody knowing that mostly people have no significant awareness if any of who Jesus is. What what are you likely to encounter when you start having a conversation with somebody and if you're fortunate, you get into spiritual conversations, what are you likely going to run into often?

Chad Farmer: [27:56] Yeah. We've got a lot of stories. Yeah, a few stories. Um so you're you're catching me on a good day. I was just looking up some numbers yesterday for a sermon. So I'll just keep these rough numbers, but um the pie chart will will will not work when I try to do this. But um uh it's it's a little over 60% will call themselves Buddhist. Um over 70% uh in Japan practice Shintoism, which is the kind of ancient Japanese folk religion. Um and then you're also going to say over 60% say they are not religious. Um and more have an atheistic framework and obviously we're way over 100% on that on that pie chart. So it it kind of falls apart, but there's a lot of people who will say all three. I do uh Shintoistic rituals. Um I might pray to ancestors. Um I think of myself as Buddhist. I also think of myself as not religious and I think that you know, scientifically we started with without any cause. Um it will go on uh the the universe will end by natural causes um in billions of years. Um and so a person might hold all those things together. Um and so conversations can be really interesting um when trying to also ask people uh what do you think? Uh there's often a uh an answering on behalf of or well, we Japanese people are Buddhist and uh pushing past and saying, that's I I understand that, but what about you? What do you believe? Um and um you know, what do you think about the the beginning of the universe, about your purpose, about what happens after you die, about uh is there a creator? What what makes sense? And so having those conversations is is so crucial. Um and if I could if I could just read Romans 15:20, um Paul says that he makes it his ambition to preach the gospel not where Christ has already been named, lest I build on someone else's foundation. Um as we're having these conversations with people with these different world views, this is one of the most exhilarating parts of of of the job is that we get to go and talk with someone where there's not a foundation for the gospel and regardless of where they're coming from, say, let me just give you the good news. Uh let me talk about what Jesus has done and his death for our sins, his resurrection, uh the salvation that's offered as as you know, by grace through faith. Um it's it's wonderful to be able to see people come into a church community and hear that message and and see what God does with them.

Jay Greer: [31:41] I think the the other big spiritual, um gosh, sad reality that's here is uh a whole lot of cults too. Um and uh just last week or the week before, I was um walking through one station over from where we are now, Shibuya, there's this world famous Shibuya scramble. Um I was down there running an errand. I don't remember what the errand was, but I was, you know, running an errand on the busiest intersection on planet Earth. And uh there's people that in the Japanese sign they're holding said like, let's reduce suicide. Um and I thought, yes, let's let's reduce suicide. That's a good thing. Um and so speaking to them in Japanese about how like, hey, I appreciate you trying to do something good. Um this could be a way for me to talk to them about how I also appreciate doing things that are good and I have a reason for that and do you want to talk about Jesus? And so, um if if I can cheer on a good cause, I'll do it. Um and she says, okay, thank you so much. And so she gives me this this pamphlet and I'm still trying to talk to her. The conversation didn't go anywhere. Um and uh I'm walking, continuing to my errand and uh I look at the pamphlet she gave me and it's a cult called Happy Science. And uh that teaches that happiness can be found through scientific means and very precise measures and this is how we can find and attain happiness and um I thought, man, I I didn't even see that coming. I just saw a shared value of let's do something good and in my mind after having lived here over a decade now, it didn't cross my mind that there could actually be a a dark and twisted means to this really good end um that these people are are trying to do on the streets today. Um you'll see Jehovah's witnesses out at just about every station, I feel like. Um that that look just like the stands that you might see them standing in public, you know, just waiting for you to not a lot of door to door here, but there is door to door here. Um and uh I don't remember the the actual countable number of cults in Japan, but it's in the tens of thousands um of just different cults that exist here. Um and so there's a there's a general view about religion that permeates the culture, which I think is one of the reasons why a lot of people would say they are not religious. Um uh in 94, 5, Aum Shinrikyo. Um a a religious cult um performed a sarin gas attack in the subways in Tokyo. Um Oh wow. Which is one of the large reasons why when you go around Japan today, there are not trash cans in public places because they use trash cans and so to keep things safe, they just took away the trash cans and now everyone carries their trash. That's a that's a different fun story. Um Wow. But uh I was speaking to a college student in a city called Nagoya several years ago and um he told me that this happened when he was a young child. Um and the way he described it really reminded me and made me think of kind of the the Timothy McVeigh cultural moment of like there's a mug shot, there's a, there's a sketch, there's a, you know, that it kind of comes to mind like when he was sharing what he saw on the news and he saw this terrible thing that happened, it reminded me a lot of that for me in the states. Um and he said, he said, I'll never forget my mom said to me, this is religion and this is what it does. You must never be religious. Um and I wondered how many other people because of what this cult had done, um associate religion with this evil um against society in a culture where uh to not do things for the sake of others is really, really looked down upon just in general anyway, right? And so it's just so magnified with what they did in the in the attack. Um and so Christianity is lumped into religious thought, a religion, a way of thinking. And so quite often there can be uh just a preconceived notion that religion equals bad, you're a religious peace person, so there could be something off. I just need to have my guard up a little more um around you or around what you represent, uh which can, not always, but can very well exist, which is helpful for us to keep in mind as we engage and just talk to a normal person, you know.

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Chad Farmer: [37:41] Yeah, it's just an interesting context about even though even here in America how um Christianity and and really all systems of faith, you know, kind of in the in the vein of Richard Dawkins that, you know, all religion is a virus on the soul of humanity and needs to be eradicated. Um you you kind of see that writ large in the Japanese culture is what it sounds like that we've gone, you know, even in America, we've gone from Christianity being respected to being ignored to now being uh labeled in some ways as dangerous. Um you know, the the number one fear of most people in America is that they would live next door to a religious fanatic. Um and but it but at the same time you have the cults, right? There and here playing on people's longing, their longing for something that's transcendent, something that's eternal, something that has hope, um their longing for some kind of a reliable foundation of right and wrong. Um you know, as as Jay was talking, it's like, well, where where do people find some kind of a foundation for establishing morality or a sense of right and wrong? Uh you know, I was wondering in that in that melo of, well, I'm not religious and I am Buddhist in some sense and I am Shinto in some sense, you know, where where is there a compass for determining right and wrong? Uh and then where is the opportunity of a conversation to talk about, you know, what the Bible says, you know, that God has put eternity in our hearts and we we long for that sense that this world is not all that there is. Uh it just kind of kind of sounds like a really hard place to have a even a starting conversation. Yeah, there's that the play the uh the building blocks that we might use in in some in some Western cultures in terms of morality and an overall sense of, you know, there there being a judge. Um and uh you know, if I if I hit rock bottom, I'll darken the door of a church when those things aren't there. Um it it can be hard to start the conversation um for sure. And yet as as Chad was mentioning earlier, um this is a very safe place. So, um you know, if someone thought, oh my goodness, it's just, you know, it's the it's the it's the end product of humanistic atheist thought and there's no morality and it's just, you know, unraveling. It's actually it's very orderly. Tokyo is always in like the top three safest cities in the world. Um uh and one of the biggest principles or values of the culture is uh care for the collective, care for the person next to you. Don't inconvenience the people around you. Um be kind, be considerate. You know, Chad mentioning uh carrying your trash home. Uh if you came and visited, you'd say this place is immaculate. Um the streets are clean, the trains are clean. Yeah. Yeah. Um and you just see foreign tourists carrying trash because they don't know what to do with it. Um but it's, you know, it's it's very, very orderly. Um and so, uh you know, often, I think where things get pushed on is when it's, okay, well what what about when what's good for the collective goes against the heart of God or when we don't have that kind of, you know, incentive to care for the weak. Um you know, so issues like abortion would not be, you know, something that's right in front of someone. Um and especially telling someone else what to do about that. Um you mentioned care for the elderly earlier, that's a that's going to be a huge debate in Japan's future. Um what to do as we have this aging population, um an upside down population as well where people are saying, uh who's going to take care of me when I'm old? Um and so there there is a very strong uh morality in the sense of I should care for my neighbor. Um that is a good, that is a good thing and it makes it a frankly a a delightful place to live often. Um it's just pushing past.

Mark Turman: [41:59] And you can hear the, and you can hear the echoes of the gospel in that, right? Sure. Yeah. You know, I mean, they they they're they're not basing it in uh what we would call a biblical understanding, but you hear the echoes. Oh yeah. In some of the things, just in some of the things that you're saying, you know, concern for your neighbor, uh respect and a sense of kindness and consideration, uh that we kind of all ought to be looking out for each other. Well, I mean, we could talk for hours about how that is all rooted in some part of scripture and in the the the life and ministry that Jesus modeled for us, right? Um but it's just it's interesting that it's there without uh the kind of biblical understanding that that we would say it needs to be anchored to.

Chad Farmer: [42:48] Yeah, there's that uh value of harmony. And so the the step that uh we want to push further into is, okay, we're talking about harmony um with one another. What about harmony with your creator? Talking about love for the people around you or at least care for the people around you so that they don't get mad at you, which could be different. Care for the people around you. What about uh care for your creator? Do you have a do you have gratitude that you've shown to the person who who made you, to the God who who created you? And so there's those other, there's some of those principles that are there that just have to be taken to that next place.

Jay Greer: [43:32] I think the the big problem that arises with the beauty of that care for one another is when there's a breakdown in that, there can be an ostracizing that takes place that is irredeemable in a lot of cases. Um or even a fear of being ostracized or cut off from the group or um I remember uh shortly after moving here, hearing um people pray, ask for prayer at work that they wouldn't make a mistake. Um and I just thought, I don't I don't understand not what do you, you know. And then as I learned more about the culture, it's just I don't want to let the group down. I don't want to be the one singled out. I don't want to be the nail that sticks furthest out, which is the first to be hammered hardest, you know, hammered that's a Japanese expression. Um and so I think we have a unique opportunity as Christians, uh and it it happens in a really beautiful way at a church gathering every week to to forgive one another as we have also been forgiven and to to share beautiful stories in the scriptures of uh like Jesus telling us about this this wayward son who came home after squandering his father's fortune, all of his riches and, you know, what do you think would happened? I think someone here with a would say, well, his dad probably like blocked him, didn't return his calls, didn't answer the door when he rang the doorbell. Um all those things can happen.

Chad Farmer: [45:10] How did you hurt your family like that?

Jay Greer: [45:12] Yeah, yeah, you can't hurt your closest group, the family, right? And Yeah. No, he he gave him a robe. He clothed him. He gave him a ring. He gave him the full honor of son. He he said, you were lost and now you're found. He embraced him. He threw a party. Um like we we can and should know and use the Bible to help speak truth to the hurts that also come with the beauty of this culture that as I think you very astutely pointed out is is close in a lot of ways to um something really good, but it's not gospel centered and spirit wrought and so ultimately it's not leading them to the bread of life.

Mark Turman: [46:00] Yeah, and they start start seeing uh the incredible beauty of grace, of mercy, right? Um that that this this just so profound thing called forgiveness. Um and starts with forgiveness from, you know, the source of life, from the creator of life and then can become the thing that lives and and moves through you uh to other people as well and just so compelling. So let's we got a few more minutes. Tell me, tell me a little bit of the backstory of the Mustard Seed Network. Uh how did this thing get started? How did you guys get connected to it, feel called into it?

Chad Farmer: [46:42] Yeah, um it's now it's getting to become a long story. Um but I was first recruited by um these guys who were starting um you know, wanted to do missions with around three pillar ideas, unreached, urban, church planting. Uh those three things and uh you know, when they were first recruiting me, they were saying we're thinking about San Francisco, we're thinking about Bangkok, Thailand. It's probably going to be Thailand. What do you think about that? And I was really interested. Um uh unreached urban church planting. As time moved on, they said if we really want to do urban, we got to do Japan. If we really want to do unreached, we got to do Japan. At that time, 2006, 2007, it was uh the largest unreached people group. It's now the largest unreached people group is in Bangladesh. Um and then let's go and reach um people there with um with church planting. And so, uh that's really been the heart of of Mustard Seed uh from the beginning. Um and then, you know, it started very small with one team trying to do one church plant and make one disciple. And that was launched after a couple years of language and cultural acquisition, uh the first church was launched in the city of Nagoya, which a lot of people don't hear of Nagoya, it's between Tokyo and Osaka. Um Nagoya is 9 million people. It's the size of Chicago. Um it's a big place. Um but that it was close to where we studied language and so we launched that church and God brought fruit way faster um than we anticipated and it was something that we were so pleasantly surprised by and continue to bring more team members and so in a few years we were able to start another church um in the city of Osaka, um about 17 million people in the Osaka metro area. Um and so my wife and I and some others moved there with that church plant. Um uh I could fast forward at that point and say, um as a network of churches, we worked on church planting churches um and expanded out. But if I pause right there while I'm in Osaka, Chad moved to Nagoya. Um and uh his family relocated there and started worshiping at that church plant in Nagoya.

Jay Greer: [49:11] Right. We my wife is Japanese and the the church in Nagoya, Mustard Seed Christian Church Nagoya was a great fit for our family. Um and uh gosh, Mark, we could talk uh equally as long for an hour about my story of how I got here. I did not have a group of friends who said, let's go plant churches. Uh I grew up in a Christian home but doing what I do now was the farthest thing from my mind for uh a long, long time. Um and so I think God really used us moving here to be involved in Christian ministry to help shape um and solidify my heart for wanting to make disciples. And so, uh one thing led to another and I just said to the pastor of the church we were at, hey, I've got this burden and I don't know what to do about it. Would you pray with me, give me advice? I don't know. And he said, well, it's funny you should mention that. We've actually been praying for someone to help me pastor at this church for a while now and I've actually already written the job description before you moved to Japan and a lot of it seems like stuff you'd be great at. And I looked at it and my jaw dropped and we took about a month to pray over it. Um and decided this is what we need to do. And so I had never pastored at a church, um worked at a church in the Dallas area before moving um to Japan, but um let alone in a second language. And so uh that's how we got started with Mustard Seed Network. Um that was about 2015. Um Yeah. when that transition for our family happened.

Mark Turman: [51:01] Yeah. So I'm I'm wondering, just yeah, thanks for sharing. I'm just wondering, you know, with the the current kind of tone uh in in American culture, uh there seems to be this idea that um you know, uh almost nobody in the world outside of America likes us anymore. Um and I'm just kind of curious how you guys have been received in Japan and uh especially you're not just, you know, a couple of white Americans wandering around Tokyo and around the country, but you're religious white guys walking around Tokyo and the country. Uh are you are you and your fellow church planters welcomed? Are you viewed with suspicion? Are people glad to meet you or are they glad to meet you simply because they're a respectful culture? Um you know, you're starting to hear more conversations in America about, well, I don't know if I want to leave the country because somebody's probably going to be mean to me. Um that doesn't sound like what you're telling me about Tokyo and about Japan.

Chad Farmer: [52:15] Yeah, it's an well, you're asking a lot of interesting questions. I could talk about a few of those things, but it would um you know, uh my wife and I moved over um February 2008. And so it's it's been 18 years um at the time of recording. Should we say that? Um but you know, it's it's been a while and so we've seen several different phases of this, you know. Um so I I remember being here when Obama was elected, you know. Um there's certainly been different, you know, uh tone shifts um as the political climate in America has changed. Um you know, people ask us different questions now, um for sure, you know. Um and you know, it's for us, we're always trying to talk about Jesus more than anything else. So, you know, we quickly move it to that. And you're absolutely right. There's some people where when we have that, you know, hard pivot to, well, let's talk about God now. Um that will say, okay, I now I don't want to be your friend anymore. Um the the thing for us is there's 37 million people right outside the door in Tokyo. Um if if we encounter a few that don't want to talk, that's okay. We'll go to the next. Um and just try to see who's open to those kinds of conversations and and always try to fly that banner of Jesus and, you know, uh God connects us to the people who are open. Um and the thing is, Tokyo's a diverse city, uh Japan's a diverse place, um increasingly diverse. Um it's been very homogeneous for a long time, but it's increasingly diverse. Um and there's a lot of different kinds of Japanese people. And so you're going to find some um where, you know, they're they're far more excited about the most recent Hollywood movie um and Taylor Swift than they are about things happening in Japan. And you're going to find others that are far more excited about everything in Japan. Um but there's so much friendship um you know, uh between the the the countries, um sharing baseball players and such. Um you know, where there's there's a lot of inroads to to friendships. Um and so, you know, uh it's uh yeah, it's hard to get, it's hard to paint with too broad a brush stroke. We could go outside right now and I guess suppose ask the people passing by, what do you think of us two guys? Um and we'd get, you know, various answers depending on the person. Um but you know, God's been gracious to lead us to the people who are interested in Jesus.

Jay Greer: [55:00] And I think I would just add on like I think for any Christian, um no matter if we're over here trying to be missionary church planters or if you're in Dallas, you know, um there's a necessity to abide in Jesus, right? And to to to by the means of grace that the Lord has afforded us to grow in our knowledge and understanding of what God has done for us in Jesus Christ as we continue to share that with other people. And so, um I love the growth we see of the Apostle Paul in the scriptures. Um from a a persecutor of Christians to to a man who who's declaring he's the chief of all sinners. And yet synonymous with the more that he understands the depth of his own depravity in his heart is this growing love and appreciation for the gospel of Jesus Christ that that he can that upon which he's been saved, which he stands and which he will stand, right? And so for us here, for you there, um stepping into those situations in faith to tell people about that really good news, uh that you are also accepted as a sinner saved by grace when people may hear that in these different ways that we're describing, right? I think more and more like 1 Peter comes to mind. Uh okay, I shouldn't be surprised by this fiery trial. Um Romans should come to mind. I should remember what this is actually producing in me. Um and in the context of the church too, right? We have people that can remind us, hey, don't forget, Jay, this is this is actually producing something in you that's God glorifying and good. Let's pray to that end. Um and let's grow to that end. Um and so, uh I think we can often skip that really, really important and necessary step every single day of just being in the word, of praying, um and growing in our confidence and our abiding in Jesus as we step into these situations.

Mark Turman: [57:05] Yeah, that's a good word. Good word. Yeah, it's true. I think, you know, you know, part of the blessing of having, you know, other churches in Japan is knowing, you know, uh there's other churches that are, you know, run by Japanese guys, uh other churches run by Indian guys, you know, there's there's other ones that that, you know, when someone might say, I don't know, I could I could look for a different flavor of church. We can introduce you to great ones. Um there's other ones that we've, you know, locked arms with and we're trying to encourage them as well. And but I think what Chad's saying is also really helpful to keep in mind that, you know, we talk about the struggles in Japan, but we wouldn't want someone to get the impression that, you know, we think this is the only hard place to evangelize, you know. Uh trying to share the gospel with your neighbor in Dallas is still hard. Um trying to share the gospel with your neighbor in Sydney, Australia is still tough. Um Yep. And it's something we have to tell our Japanese church members over here too as they're saying, man, it feels really hard to to do this over here. And it's, yes, it is. It is very hard. And it is also hard um historically and it's hard around the world. Thankfully, God is good and the Holy Spirit can help you out with this.

Mark Turman: [58:24] Yeah, and that's that's true everywhere from from here and and, you know, spent some time in Cuba and some time in the Central American countries as well. It's, you know, it's just hard everywhere. Um and that that's because the devil is alive and well for this time. Um so as we as we wrap up guys, what what's on the immediate horizon and how would you want people to be praying for what y'all are up to in the in the near term?

Chad Farmer: [58:56] Well, there's always a lot of prayer requests for sure. Um right now our we have a network of of 12 churches um that are gathering and uh we always just appreciate prayers for those churches, uh for the teams, um for the church members who are there and for the lost people who are around those churches. Pray that God would bring seekers to connect to those communities to hear about Jesus. That's the biggest always prayer. Um we're also working with um the start of a new school to try to raise up preachers in Japan. It's called Tokyo Keiruso School of Theology. Um they'll have classes tonight um where there's there's 20 students this semester. It just kicked off last semester. We're trying to increase the number of people who can preach God's word to the church and we're trying to teach them in Japan um and provide an opportunity for people to learn in Japanese where they might not have to go and train on on the other side of the world. So, um we're always praying for more workers, uh more church plants, um more disciples to be made. Um those are the those are the big things. Um and there's, you know, other upcoming things uh like Easter and such. But what else should we pray for, Chad?

Jay Greer: [01:00:21] Yeah, for sure Easter. Uh we're often asked that question. I'm often asked that question personally too and I feel like the one I always the answer I truly from my heart want to give to how could you pray for me personally or anyone personally you know who's even a missionary, uh is that they would do what I we've been talking about a little bit here, abide in Jesus and that they would, you know, fully live and do with him. So that I would, that my family would, um that we would remember uh to not neglect the important things at home, our children and our and our spouses. Uh but but that even at our neighbors, um because just like I'm sure the people listening can think of right now, someone who they're like, I just really want that person to know Jesus. We have neighborhoods here too where we we know people's names, we know their faces, we're learning more of their stories. Uh we're hearing different things as we walk by their house that cause us just get us praying. Um we have those people here too. And so, um uh like like Paul prayed, asked for prayer from prison of pray that there would be an open door um for for more gospel proclamation um in our families and in our churches.

Mark Turman: [01:01:35] Yeah, that's a good word. Tell us uh where can we find out more? Where can people learn about the ongoing work of Mustard Seed and what you guys are doing, how they can continue to track with you, pray for you, maybe become a part of what you're doing. Where can we find that?

Chad Farmer: [01:01:52] Yeah, I appreciate you asking. We are Mustard Seed Network and the um uh the website is pretty easy. It's mustardseed.network. Uh so just throw a dot in there, mustardseed.network and you can find out um about the different things that are going on, um how to pray, how to give, all those kinds of things. Um and then other up-to-date uh prayer items will be on social media, um Instagram and Facebook especially. And so, um yeah, I invite people to follow those and you know, in today's day and age, what's wild is, you know, there's also all the different churches that are in our network have their own accounts um that are usually in a mix of of English and Japanese language. So if people want some posts that they can read half of, um they can go and track down our churches as well. Um and you know, find, you know, we're at Mustard Seed Christian Church Tokyo. Um this this one that we're at was was just started um in 2020 and you know, you can find all the others as well and any any way that that people can learn and get connected, um it really is a blessing to have people pray from all over the world.

Mark Turman: [01:03:03] Absolutely. And, you know, if you happen to be visiting Japan, look for one of these churches and go drop in and worship with these folks. Yeah, absolutely. And uh we'll put all of that in the show notes so people can find it. Uh if they're listening, they can uh get to a place where they can go uh find those things in the show notes and connect. And uh we hope we can talk some more as you guys continue to serve the Lord in such a great and awesome part of the world. And uh thanks for being a part of uh Faith and Clarity. I want to thank our audience for joining us as well. And if this has been helpful to you, please rate and review us, share this with others uh who would have a a passion and a vision for what God is doing in other places around the world. And uh guys, it's just a great thing. My mentor told me a long time ago, you know, technology can make us a neighborhood and Jesus can make us a brotherhood. And uh so we'll just keep working to that end. So, um God bless you. Hope you have a great week of ministry and we hope that we get to connect soon again.

Chad Farmer: [01:04:07] Thank you, Mark.

Jay Greer: [01:04:07] Thanks, Mark.