Biblical living

Following Christ in a sports-obsessed world

July 23, 2025 - Denison Forum

In this episode of the Denison Forum Podcast, Dr. Mark Turman sits down with Dr. Ryan Denison, Conner Jones, and Micah Tomasella for a thoughtful roundtable conversation exploring the intersection of faith, sports, and culture. Together, they discuss the spiritual implications of sports gambling, the complexities of compensating college athletes, and what it means to follow Christ in the world of competitive athletics.

They also reflect on the example of professional golfer Scottie Scheffler, whose quiet faith continues to speak louder than his success. Finally, the group offers biblical wisdom for families navigating youth sports and the challenge of keeping Christ at the center.

Whether you’re deeply invested in the sports world or simply curious about its cultural impact, this conversation offers helpful, faith-first perspectives on one of the most influential forces in American life today.

Topics

(00:24): Meet the hosts
(02:17): Culture Brief podcast insights
(05:33): The slowest sports day of the year
(08:18): The ESPYs and sports media
(11:22): Personal sports fandom
(17:20): Scottie Scheffler’s perspective on golf and life
(23:32): Biblical perspectives on sports
(27:57): The evolution of college sports compensation
(33:34): Exploitation of families in NIL deals
(35:34): Spiritual reflections on NIL inequities
(41:12): The rise of sports gambling
(46:10): The impact of gambling on athletes and fans
(55:45): Balancing faith and sports in family life
(01:05:07): Final thoughts and reflections

Resources

About Dr. Ryan Denison

Ryan Denison, PhD, is the Senior Editor for Theology at Denison Forum. Ryan writes The Daily Article every Friday and contributes writing and research to many of the ministry’s productions. He holds a PhD in church history from BH Carroll Theological Institute after having earned his MDiv at Truett Seminary. He’s authored The Path to Purpose, What Are My Spiritual Gifts?, How to Bless God by Blessing Others, 7 Deadly Sins, and has contributed writing or research to every Denison Forum book.

About Conner Jones

Conner Jones is the Director of Performance Marketing at Denison Ministries and Co-Hosts Denison Forum’s “Culture Brief” podcast. He graduated from Dallas Baptist University in 2019 with a degree in Business Management. Conner passionately follows politics, sports, pop-culture, entertainment, and current events. He enjoys fishing, movie-going, and traveling the world with his wife and son.

About Micah Tomasella

Micah Tomasella is the Senior Advancement Officer at Denison Ministries and co-hosts Denison Forum’s “Culture Brief” podcast. A graduate of Dallas Baptist University, Micah is married to Emily, and together they are the proud parents of two daughters. With an extensive background in nonprofit work, finance, and real estate, Micah also brings experience from his years in pastoral church ministry.

About Dr. Mark Turman

Mark Turman, DMin, serves as the Executive Director of Denison Forum, where he leads with a passion for equipping believers to navigate today’s complex culture with biblical truth. He is best known as the host of The Denison Forum Podcast and the lead pastor of the Possum Kingdom Chapel, the in-person congregation of Denison Ministries.

Dr. Turman is the coauthor of Sacred Sexuality: Reclaiming God’s Design and Who Am I? What the Bible Says About Identity and Why it Matters. He earned his undergraduate degree from Howard Payne University in Brownwood, Texas, and received his Master of Divinity from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. He later completed his Doctor of Ministry at George W. Truett Theological Seminary at Baylor University in Waco.

Before joining Denison Forum, Mark served as a pastor for 35 years, including 25 years as the founding pastor of Crosspoint Church in McKinney, Texas.

Mark and his high school sweetheart, Judi, married in 1986. They are proud parents of two adult children and grandparents to three grandchildren.

About Denison Forum

Denison Forum exists to thoughtfully engage the issues of the day from a biblical perspective through The Daily Article email newsletter and podcast, The Denison Forum Podcast, as well as many books and additional resources.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

NOTE: This transcript was AI-generated and has not been fully edited.

Dr. Mark Turman: [00:00:00] Welcome. This is the Denison Forum podcast. I’m Mark Turman, the host for today’s conversation. We’re gonna pick up a topic that hopefully is relevant to you. We’re gonna talk about the intersection and sometimes collision between faith, sports and our culture. So this is gonna be a round table discussion between me and three of my friends and coworkers.

You’ve heard before Dr. Ryan Denison, senior editor for Theology here at Denison Forum. He’s been a part of our conversations before He’s joining us again. We also have Conner Jones. Conner, welcome to the podcast. Conner is the director of what we call performance marketing. Can you explain that, Conner?

Conner Jones: Yeah, I could. It would take all day. ’cause I’m still trying to learn it myself. Mark.

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. So we may be the organization that created a thing called Performance Marketing that will change the world. But we’re not even sure exactly what all that is, but. We think Conner’s doing a really great job of it.

Conner Jones: I appreciate that.

Dr. Mark Turman: Conner is also the co-host of [00:01:00] what we call Culture Brief, another podcast from Dennis and Forum that you may have caught up to. If not, we’re gonna tell you a little bit more about that. His co-host is Micah Tomasella, and I have to really focus sometimes to say that last name syllables, mark.

Lots of syllables, lot of syllables. Micah Tomasella, incredibly great last name.

Micah Tomasella: Thank you sir, by the way. Thank you sir.

Dr. Mark Turman: And Micah helps us in our development area. Your official title is Senior Advancement Officer. Senior Advancement Officer. Which really sounds cool. Yeah, it is cool. But Micah manages a ton of relationships with people that relate to our organization.

Some of you know that we are a donor supported ministry, and if you’re one of those people, we’re grateful for you. And you might have had a conversation with, with Micah already. If not, you’ll probably have one soon. But we’re grateful for you and for all of those that help us to do this work, to share God’s truth in a way that is full of love and compassion as well as conviction.

And we’re glad that you’re [00:02:00] along with us for this conversation. But guys, we we want to welcome you again into this conversation on Denison Forum. But you, I was gonna say you host the sister podcast. It really should be the brother podcast. Yeah. Of yeah. Probably Little Brother podcast. It’s, it’s the little, you know, we, we won’t say Little Brother.

Yeah. We’ll just say Brother. Yeah. But you guys tell us about Culture Brief. You’ve been doing this for several months now. It’s been well received, it’s growing. Tell us what your goals and purpose are and what Culture Brief is all about.

Conner Jones: Yeah. It’s kind of what it says in the title. We’re trying to brief the audience on what’s happening in culture that includes politics.

Just news headlines that includes technology, entertainment, Hollywood, movies, TV shows, and of course that includes what we’re talking about today, sports.

Micah Tomasella: Mm.

Conner Jones: And we try to just bring a biblical perspective to all of the big things happening in the news and headlines that week across culture.

Micah Tomasella: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I couldn’t say it any better myself. Ultimately, we believe that if you listen to this podcast once a week, we release every Thursday morning. [00:03:00] If you listen to it for those 40, 45 minutes, we really can give you a good rundown and breakdown of all of the biggest topics that are happening in the news, giving it to you in bite-sized chunks, but also helping us all apply the headlines to our lives.

God, what would you have me do about that? How can I be a part of the solution? How can I be a part of change? And we also just have a ton of fun. We do a lot of polls for our audience, talking about restaurants and celebrities and just all kinds of different things. So we definitely love engaging with our audience.

It’s just been a ton of fun and such a blessing for Conner and I to be able to do it. Conner and I have been. Very close, very close friends, best friends for, gosh, over 10 years now. So being able to host this podcast together has been really, really fun.

Conner Jones: Yes. Yeah. Lots of banter. Lots of banter and jabs at each other, for sure.

Micah Tomasella: Yeah, that was, that was about as nice as I’ve been to Conner a long time. That was really, really nice of me, what I just said.

Dr. Mark Turman: We’re glad that you polished it up, you know, here on the sophisticated Dennison Forum. There you go. Podcast. There you go. There you go. And we hope y’all will check that out.

Again, one of the distinctives. There’s actually three podcasts in Denison Forum [00:04:00] World. You may, if you’re a follower of Dr. Jim Denison’s daily article, you may be receiving that as an email, and that’s great. You can also get it in a podcast version. Just go and subscribe to the DA or the Daily Article podcast and you can get the daily article that way.

Those of you who do read or listen to the daily article know that Dr. Ryan Denison who is the son of Dr. Jim Denison writes weekly or the daily article at least once a week and sometimes more often than that. And so you’re probably familiar with his work. Ryan, great job on the DA today. We’re recording on the 17th, and so Ryan had a great, great daily article today that you can check out on the pro-life movement, some stuff there but a little bit of a distinction.

Three podcasts coming from Denison Forum. We have the Daily Article podcast. We have the Denison Forum podcast, which typically takes an issue like we’re doing today in sports. And does a deep dive on it. In some way. We often have guests come on [00:05:00] and take us into kind of an interview format. They might have written a book on this or some other type of work, and we go deep dive into that.

That’s a lot of what we do on the Denon Forum podcast. And then Culture Brief, as the guys just described, they will touch on a lot of different stories that are happening in a week’s time and give you some understanding of that along with spiritual and biblical applications. So that’s kind of how the podcasts are unique and we’re glad to get to do this stuff together.

We collaborate with each other and help each other to figure out how to do good work to serve you well. And we hope that today does that. I wanna set guys a little bit of the context. Help me if I get this right. As I said, we’re recording on June the 17th, which. At least in the United States to me, is the slowest sports day.

All year long. If you July 17th, July whatever day follows the MLB All-Star game. Yeah. And last night, the Epsy, I’ll tell y’all a little story. Got home last night after full days of work, and my wife’s chilling out on the [00:06:00] couch after dinner. She turns on the television and there’s an award show and she starts paying attention, which she doesn’t usually pay that much attention to award shows, but she’s what is this?

And I said, it’s called the ESPYs. And I said, they celebrate people in sports and they give out a bunch of awards, like the best play of the year all kinds of stuff. Ryan probably knows more about this, or you guys do than I do. And she goes, I can’t believe you’re not watching this. And I’m like. I gotta tell you, I, I don’t like it.

I’ve watched a little bit in past years and it’s not my thing. So they put the ESPYs right behind the MLB All-Star game for a reason, because there’s not much else going on. Football training camps haven’t opened yet. Baseball’s turning the corner. If there’s anything going on in the soccer world, I’m unaware of it.

Some people are gonna say wait a minute, the British Open is starting. That’s true, but that’s across the pond. So we’ll get around to that. We’re gonna touch on that in a moment. All I’m [00:07:00] saying is, is that if you’re listening to ESPN or your favorite sports talk show, they’re probably struggling to find something to say.

You guys agree with that? Don’t agree with that? Am I on the right track here?

Dr. Ryan Denison: I do think it’s, you know, the prime season for Hot Take Media. When it comes to sports, because there’s no games to talk about, like you said. So they just figure out the most out outlandish things they can possibly say, the worst predictions you could ever hear, and then they just spend hours talking about those.

Dr. Ryan Denison: So it really is the dry season in that capacity. And I can’t wait for baseball to start again.

Conner Jones:Big, big top list season, like top 10 quarterbacks going into the new year, you know, like all of that or the, the hot take season, the is D’S legacy tarnished, you know, type of conversations where they’ve just got nothing to discuss.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s slow.

Micah Tomasella: I mean, and also we’re very close what, five days away from rookies reporting to all the NFL mini camps and stuff like that in cooler weather temperatures, mainly like in California and [00:08:00] other places. And so there’s just all those football headlines coming in and then Yep, we’ll start to get all the hot takes of, oh, the whole team looks awful.

And then that team that looked awful during spring training or you know, all that, the mini camp stuff. Then they end up winning the Super Bowl or something like that. So everybody’s got an opinion. Everybody wants to share it this time of year.

Dr. Mark Turman: Okay. So did any of you watch the ESPYs?

Dr. Ryan Denison: I saw it in clip format, but I didn’t see it live.

Dr. Mark Turman: Okay. What does that mean, Ryan? To see it in clip format,

Dr. Ryan Denison: that means the best of the best parts of the show made it up on, made it on X and so I, I felt like I could consume the parts I wanted to in about five to 10 minutes and save the rest of that time for something else.

Micah Tomasella: Yeah, they picked a host this year that people were more excited about.

Shane Gillis, he’s very popular. Comedians, people were excited about his sound bites and you know, kinda just the way he’s gonna roast the crowd and stuff like that. So I, same for me, I just saw like a few clips. I did not sit down and watch the whole thing. Same.

Conner Jones: And all the clips were literally of Shane Gillis.

I barely saw any athlete. I don’t even know who won. I don’t even know what, I dunno anything about the awards, but I saw a lot of funny jokes being said, you know, like it Yeah.

Dr. Mark Turman: That’s what you see nowadays. Yep. Alright. One other [00:09:00] a couple other things to set context here. I’m probably not going too far out on a limb to say that Ryan’s the biggest baseball fan in the room.

Dr. Ryan Denison: That’s possible.

Dr. Mark Turman: Very possible. And probably biggest baseball fan in our ministry. And maybe this entire 12 story building that we’re in right now, also maybe in Texas also

Conner Jones: likely. Look, Ryan, Ryan likes Minor league baseball. That’s how big of a fan.

Dr. Mark Turman: He, he can tell you about minor league baseball.

He’s right. Reason I bring it up, historic kind of thing. Major League Baseball’s changed the All-Star game in some ways and it ended in a way on Tuesday night of this week. That’s never happened before in something called a swing off. Ryan, can you give us a quick understanding of what Major League Baseball’s done here?

Dr. Ryan Denison: Baseball’s been trying for years to find some solution to extra innings that didn’t involve actually having to play extra innings.

Micah Tomasella: Hmm.

Dr. Ryan Denison: A few years back, I guess it was more than a few years back now, they caught a bunch of heat because they just ended the game in its high and everyone agreed that’s the worst possible thing you could do.

But at the same time, nobody wants, none [00:10:00] of these teams that send their players to the All-Star game want them getting stretched out and extra innings or anybody getting injured. So the swing off was kind of a new way of being able to actually have a winner without having a risk, you know, extra innings or boredom there.

And to be honest, I loved it. I thought it was a really fun way to finish it. I thought it kind of highlighted just the exhibition format of an All-star game and really just kind of, it struck a great balance of not trying to make the game something it’s not, which I think is something a lot of the other leagues struggle with.

They try and the NBA, whether NFL, all NHL, all their all-star games just don’t even feel like the sport and baseball’s the one that comes the closest. And I thought this was a great, great way to kind of emphasize that, yes, this is still baseball, but it’s also just for fun.

Conner Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other leagues could take notes from the MLB on like being innovative and trying to renew just excitement in your audience by the pitch clocks.

Even now I’m seeing that they’re trying to. Bring in the, the robotic umps. Everything that baseball’s doing, because they started losing viewership and, and excitement behind the [00:11:00] sport. They’re doing things that are great like this with All Star game. Other leagues should probably take some notes.

Micah Tomasella: It’s also been a while since the MLB has ever been referenced to, in terms of being on the cutting edge of anything.

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, the fact that they’re evolving and doing what they can to become more interesting ’cause it really is such a great sport. Yeah, it’s exciting.

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. So anyway, those are some things happening around us. Last bit of context. I want you to, I want our audience to know who they’re talking to and who’s talking to them and from what perspective.

Gonna let you guys kind of tell off a little bit on who you are from a sports standpoint. And I’ll go first. I’m the oldest person in this conversation, 62 years old. And I’m gonna ask you to each tell me are, do you consider yourself a fan or a fanatic when it comes to sports generally?

And what is your favorite sport? I would tell you that I am a fan of most all sports, but I’m not a fanatic about any of them. If I was ranking my favorite, it would be golf, college, football, [00:12:00] and baseball. And I would rank them almost all equally important to me. And that’s just where my favorites are.

So I’m the senior guy playing on the senior tour here, if you will. Tell us how old you are. Fan fanatic. Oh, by the way, one other thing. I’ve only played one team sport, and that was one year of little league baseball. So since the fourth grade, I’ve never been on a sports team other than church softball.

So tell me how much you want me to know. Fan or fanatic Conner.

Conner Jones: Yeah. I, I’m a, I’m a fan of most sports. I’m a fanatic of NFL Football and golf professional golf. College football I love as well. Fall is just the best time of the year, in my opinion, in terms of sports. Just football is on from basically Thursday to Monday night, and it’s at my household.

Yeah. And it’s awesome. I grew up playing some sports, some team sports. As a kid I was not athletic, I was not good at them. I was a proud starter of the C team in middle school on basketball. Yeah. So we had C team in my school district. Yeah.

Micah Tomasella: But you were the starter though, right?

Conner Jones: I was the, I was the [00:13:00] starting point guy, man.

Dr. Mark Turman: Hey man, just go with that. Yeah.

Conner Jones: You know.

Dr. Mark Turman: What about the D team?

Conner Jones: We didn’t even have enough kids at the school to have a D team. They had the start one for cars. I mean, yeah, it was basically a participation team at that point. But I just, I man, I love sports and I really enjoy right now, this time of the year, professional golf.

Just watching those guys not play team sport and it’s just a totally different dynamic. But football’s the, the king of sports and it’s king of my household too. Hmm.

Micah Tomasella: Yeah, so I’m 29 years old. I grew up in DFW southeast of Dallas. Sports has been such a huge part of my upbringing in life. I think some of the greatest memories of my upbringing is being at a Rangers game, going to a Mavs game, going to see the Cowboys play when they were in Irving.

Even then, you know, right before they moved watching the Longhorns win the championship in 2005, Mavs winning in 2011. I mean, it has just been such a, such a cornerstone man. Like I was not the guy who collected the Yugi O cards. I was collecting baseball and football cards, and I was playing all the sports.

I mainly played football and basket, not football, sorry, baseball [00:14:00] and basketball through high school. Really enjoyed that. I would say this, and this is a very succinct answer, I am a fanatic. Of NFL football. I have a, I’m a fanatic of the Dallas Cowboys. I’m a fan of the NBA. I’m a fanatic of the Dallas Mavericks.

I’m a fan of the MLB. I’m a fanatic of the Texas Rangers and I am a fanatic of college football as well, and a fanatic of Texas Longhorn football. I also love golf. I watch tennis. I just like people like seeing them compete at the highest level. It is just sheer will versus sheer will. It’s the modern day Roman Coliseum.

Conner Jones: Okay. It’s the modern day col gladiator. He’s pretty deep. He’s got really deep. I should clarify, Mike and I were same age. We grew up in Dallas, both big Dallas sports fans of all the teams. But we are young enough to have never seen the Dallas Cowboys win an NFC championship in our lifetime. That’s correct.

That’s correct. They won a Super Bowl right before we were each born, and it’s been misery since then. Entire, it’s a lifetime. Entire lifetime.

Micah Tomasella: It’s been a lifetime of disappointment. You’d think it would teach us [00:15:00] humility, but still, every single year we say. This is our year. We done boys. We’re gonna win it all.

Dr. Mark Turman: If you need Ryan to share stories about Troy Aikman, he can probably do that. I can share stories about Roger Alback. There you go. I can. There you go. But glory days. I can spell Sta back if you need me to The glory days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ryan,

Dr. Ryan Denison: Your perspective. I’m, I’m 39 years old, so I do remember vague.

I have vague memories of the last time the Cowboys were good. I remember more the Super Bowl parties ’cause my parents would always get like m and ms back then would make different colored m and ms for the teams that were in the Super Bowl. And I always remember those being there. ’cause when I was five or six, that mattered a lot more than the outcome of the game.

That’s cool. But I was pretty awesome. I wish I’d still do that, so it was great. But

Dr. Mark Turman: yeah.

Dr. Ryan Denison: But growing up do you have

Dr. Mark Turman: fan or fanatic?

Dr. Ryan Denison: Probably Micah said it well. Fan of Basket Fan of the NBA fanatic of the Mavericks, probably fanatic of baseball and the Rangers. But baseball and basketball are definitely my two favorite sports.

I love football as well, but to be honest, I, I’m, I watched that [00:16:00] more for fantasy football. Even the time Fantasy football. Didn’t even mention fantasy football fan.

Micah Tomasella: Yeah, yeah. Big deal. Big deal.

Dr. Ryan Denison: I started that in high school with some friends and it’s, I’ve been hooked ever since. Mm-hmm.

Micah Tomasella: So have we,

Dr. Ryan Denison: so it was, it’s been great.

But growing up, I, I played basketball mainly. Kind of played little league baseball for a bit, but really kind of fell back in love with baseball in college. When I came to understand back then, the Rangers were awful. And the thing I loved about baseball was that even if you follow the minor leagues, there was always something you could put hope in.

There was young players, there was guys who you knew didn’t really have a great shot at making the majors, but when they’re playing against other 18 year olds, then they look phenomenal. And so the thing I loved about baseball was it just. It gives you space to hope that the other sports don’t. And I think that’s really kind of what I fell in love with in a lot of ways.

When all my other sports teams sucked, they were just, there was always room for hope when it came to baseball.

Micah Tomasella: That is so true about baseball, right? There’s just so much complexity to it. So many different storylines in every single game. That’s a great point.

Dr. Mark Turman: I don’t know about you, Conner, but I feel like the fanatic side of the room is over [00:17:00] there.

Yeah. I mean, Conner does really love sports. The more reasonable I love sports. You gotta go with me here, Conner. Okay. You gotta be on my side here. Sorry, mark. I’m

Conner Jones: trying to make sure.

Dr. Mark Turman: No, mark. You’re on an island. I’m on an island. You’re on an island. I’m on an island.

Conner Jones: You’re right. They seem like a maybe more fanatic, widespread, but I, my fanaticism stays with football for the most part, but I, I, I dabble in all the other sports, you know.

Dr. Mark Turman: Okay, so maybe a good segue here is, is how our, our good friend from Dallas, Scotty Scheffler, kind of turned the sports world a little bit on its head this week. Close friend

Micah Tomasella: Scotty Scheffler.

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, we wish he was our close friend. We hope he listens to this maybe in proximity. And we, and we’re gonna celebrate Scotty’s comments, but it is the beginning of arguably the biggest golf tournament in the world.

It probably should be characterized that way as the British open starch this week. And high expectation for people like Scotty Scheffler. But he was interviewed kind of at press day, if you will, and people were asking him interesting questions like, what’s been the greatest celebration of any tournament?

[00:18:00] And he said, you know. It really doesn’t last more than about two minutes. And he went on to say some pretty astounding things. We, we know many people know of his very dedicated faith as a Christian. And he made a statement. I, I watched different parts of the interview. He said, you know, if I ever think in any shape, form, or fashion that being out here as a professional golfer is gonna hurt my marriage or my parenting my family, it’ll be the last round of golf I ever play.

And it, when he said that, it reminded me something of the legend of Bobby Jones who gave up golf kind of at the t at the peak, at the pinnacle of his career. What’d you guys think of Scheffler? And his comments about sports is great, but sports is not everything.

Conner Jones: Man. It, it was just truly an amazing statement to say, knowing he’s on the world stage, knowing he’s the world’s best golfer, and that he has such a platform.

And most athletes in that scenario would not say anything along the lines of, golf’s [00:19:00] just a game. I get to play it. I’m, I enjoy competing in it. I love it, but at the end of the day, it’s just golf essentially. And he is I’d rather be a great father than a great golfer. I’d rather be focused on my family.

I love when he said, if it ever impacts my home life or my faith, I’m done. Most athletes would really struggle to make that commitment. And he just is showing his faith without standing back. And Micah said it on our podcast yesterday for Culture Brief. He said it, it doesn’t come across as church either.

He is not like trying to preach it on anybody. He’s not trying to say, anybody else should think this way. But he is saying, here’s how I feel about this. And it comes across as just so real and genuine. You can see his faith being lived out in this massive platform, and he is using his incredible talents to do that.

It’s just awesome to see. Yeah,

Micah Tomasella: I really enjoyed it too. I think it was really relatable for a lot of people what he had to say. I’ll read just a couple sentences of what he specifically said. There are a lot of people that make it to what they thought was going to fulfill them in life, but you get to number one in the world and then they’re like, what’s the point?

This is not a [00:20:00] fulfilling life. I love being able to play this game for a living. It’s one of the greatest choice of my life, but does it fill the deepest wants and desires of my heart? Absolutely not, right? It’s, it’s kind of a, it’s an understanding of human nature that all of these things that told me would bring me fulfillment.

Win that tournament for us, like we talked about. Get that next promotion, buy that bigger house, get that nicer thing, go accomplish this. And then as Scotty said, it lasts for two minutes and then you’re left wondering what is the purpose and meaning of all of it in the first place. And so the way Scotty put it, you see golf.com circulating it, saying that this was incredible, ESPN, just the way he said it was so relatable, but it really has such a biblical message to it that it’s finite.

Victories, accomplishments. It’s finite. What’s the meaning? What’s the purpose? We’re searching for something deeper. And Scotty really touched on that. Yeah.

Dr. Ryan Denison: And one thing I’d add to it is that I think his status as the best golf player in the world gives him a gravity to those statements that mm-hmm.

Other people. Absolutely. I mean, if the [00:21:00] person who’s finishing 50th or 60th and all the tournaments says, you know, winning’s really not that important. It’s different than the guy who’s actually doing all the winning. And I think there is, there’s something to that. Like he’s, he’s able to say that and he says it without any hint of disappointment in the reality of the way.

That’s true. So many other athletes, you hear them say similar things after winning a championship and there’s almost like a depression in their voice about it, where they had put all their hopes in that, and then they come to find out it’s not, it’s not fulfilling and they don’t know where to go next.

I mean, Scheffler said it knowing full well I can say this ’cause I know. This isn’t supposed to be fulfilling. It’s not that. It’s, it’s failing to live up expectations. It’s everything it’s supposed to be. It’s just not supposed to fill those deepest needs.

Dr. Mark Turman: And I, I love you the way you put that, Ryan, that just really resonates with me.

And, and Micah, what you were saying that Scheffler said about you get to be number one in the world. It, when he said it, I almost thought that’s a arrogant statement, but I thought there’s nothing arrogant about the way he’s saying it. [00:22:00] And it made me also think of the guy in business who gets to the top of the business world only to find out that that wasn’t satisfying either.

And all those kinds of things. But what I, you know, we kind of all intuitively know sports is just about having fun is what it really is supposed to be about. But in our culture, kind of the, one of the driving reasons we wanted to have this conversation is it just looks like in many ways that people have, in some ways turned their sports into their religion.

We’ve talked and we’ve written in Denison Forum World about how people have done that with politics. And that politics is now kind of this 24 7, 365 Yeah. Thing. And that people have really just so totally embraced it as almost a religion. And for some people it really would meet that criteria and people have struggled with that relative to sports as well.

Loved what Scotty said in that regard as well. That, [00:23:00] hey, this, you know, I loved when he said, you know, I struggle to walk up to a tournament like the Masters or the British Open and wonder why do I want to win so bad? Especially when somebody like he knows he’s won enough to know if I do win. It’s a, it’s a blip on the radar.

And then the next thing out of somebody mi somebody’s mouth is, is what are you gonna do next week? And, and he just understands that perspective. So we’re gonna deal with some of those, these related topics and how faith just enters into these kinds of conversations. Ryan, you are the guy that has a doctoral degree in church history.

We’re gonna take that background along with your love for sports and just say, can you give us a, a brief overview? If we were to write, what does the Bible say about sports? What might be some of the things that we would talk about?

Dr. Ryan Denison: I think you’d probably start with Paul, like he, Paul, for all by all historical accounts, was not a terribly athletic person.

He still seemed to love sports.

Micah Tomasella: Hmm.

Dr. Ryan Denison: In his [00:24:00] letter to the Corinthians, for example, like in one Corinthians nine, he uses the example of running a race. He uses the example of athletic training and even talks about boxing as analogies for understanding the Christian life. And I think sports does have a unique ability to speak to the, the need for competition, the need how being great requires sacrifice about how.

Really putting in the work is essential to seeing the rewards. And I think Paul really taps into that and a lot of his writings elsewhere. And like second Timothy, he talks, he’s the same example. To kind of encourage Timothy to not give up, to understand that when things get hard, that that’s not a bad thing.

That just means that it’s a chance for you to improve and get better. And I think that’s, so one of the things I love about sports and I, I think one of the ways that we can apply these passages today so easily is because it’s the same, like our faith hasn’t changed. It’s still something where faith is not supposed to be easy.

I mean, it’s, our salvation is, is simple, but that doesn’t mean it’s easy. And [00:25:00] wrestling with what it means to grow in our faith on a daily basis, to resist temptation, to really kind of play into the, to see God’s redemption of the trials that we face. I think a lot of those, those same sports analogies still carry true today in a way that whether you’re talking about.

You know, ancient Roman athletic competitions or the Super Bowl still kind of rings true, and I, I think it’s really cool how we can make, how there’s such a short leap to make in those between 2000 years of history.

Dr. Mark Turman: So there’s, there’s certainly enough there to know that sports were operating in the culture and in the background of biblical times, particularly New Testament.

We know that the city of Corinth where, you know, we have two very substantial letters to the believers at Corinth. They were the home of what was called the Isan games, which were the pre precursor to the Olympic Games. So it may have been part of the reason that Paul pulled out some of those metaphors.

We don’t know if it was Paul that actually wrote to the, he the letter of Hebrews, but there’s reference there in Hebrews [00:26:00] 12 about running your race. So we know that it was a part of their world and a part of the context. There’re probably not too many obvious examples of somebody that had become, that had made this their faith or their religion, but.

There probably was. We just don’t know who they were because we tend to go too far with a lot of things in our world. And we’re gonna try to expose some of those things and try to work our way through them for your benefit in the rest of our conversation. But right now we’re gonna take a side, a take a, a moment to step aside, take a breath and catch our breath, and we’ll be right back in just a second.[00:27:00]

Welcome back. Continue our conversation here on the Denon Forum podcast about sports. Micah, let’s talk about some of these complex issues. We’re gonna jump into this whole thing about [00:28:00] college sports and get us up to speed on this first comment.

Micah Tomasella: Yeah, so college athletes have been paid, especially through endorsements and certain things for a few years now, but really there was a court case that made it completely official.

And what we’re experiencing is a, a complete shift in college athletics. The NCAA recently agreed to a $2.8 billion settlement in house versus ncaa. So starting next year, officially, schools will be allowed to pay athletes directly, not just through NIL deals, not just through advertisers. Schools will be paying their players basically salaries, but through actual revenue sharing with up to $20.5 million per school.

Now, some schools, like we’re we’re gonna talk about, they’re never gonna get to that number, but the bigger schools. You’ve got that 24 $20.5 million per school kind of cap. But then if you’re at a larger university with a larger footprint like the University of Texas, Ohio State, Alabama, any team in the SEC, the list goes on and on.

Then the endorsements, the NIL deals, these kids are gonna end up making a ton [00:29:00] of money. And there’s pros and cons of that. These players are putting their bodies on the line to hopefully make it to the prof, you know, professional level, because this is not just college football, it’s for every sport.

So some of them will make it to a professional level, a lot of them will not. So this isn’t just a tweak, it’s a total overhaul. So here’s why it matters. For years, college athletes generated billions while receiving little more than a scholarship. Now, for the first time, schools will be legally allowed to actually pay players a portion of that revenue.

So here’s here’s the basics of, of the new model. It sends billions to former players that were denied past compensation. So it, it rights some wrongs and then it shifts college sports into a semi-pro business model. And then it opens the door for roster wide pay, not just the stars, like the backup, backup, backup, offensive lineman.

If you’re playing at the University of Texas, you’re gonna make a better salary than a lot of people. So that’s, that’s kind of where we’re headed. In short, it’s a win for fairness, but it’s not without fallout. It’s not without its issues. So here’s the good, here’s the good part of this that I can [00:30:00] clearly say athletes finally get paid for the hours risk and value they bring to their schools.

It levels the field for players who may not land major NIL deals, but still give, they’re all on the field. That also adds honesty to a system that has profited off of what you might call free labor for many, many years. In, in a sense it’s been free labor. Here are the challenges. Lots of challenges.

Big schools. They love this. This is good for them. They’re cashing in schools like Texas, Ohio State, Alabama, like I mentioned, are already raising full war chests to fund these payments. Smaller schools, many are opting out. We actually talked about this last month on culture brief. Houston Christian, formerly Houston Baptist, recently announced they can’t afford to participate.

They pulled out of this deal. So that’s gonna widen the gap between the haves and the have nots in college sports. And what about non-revenue sports? What about all the other college athletics? All the other schools? All the other teams, yeah. When budgets get stretched, programs like tennis, swimming, wrestling, including many women’s teams are gonna take a hit.

And this could [00:31:00] solve one equity problem while creating an entirely different equity problem. Any thoughts on that so far?

Conner Jones: Yeah. I just know that some of the Olympic sports like you just mentioned, those coaches are worried about this because they’re like, you’re gonna focus so much on the big sports.

Football and basketball ’cause they make so much revenue. These sports where it may not be a revenue driver, but it’s definitely a driver in other ways in athletic athleticism as well as creating Olympic teams for the future. And also there’s typically scholarships that go to those programs as well.

Are those gonna get pulled back? They’re all kind of worried about that. But you’re right, this does solve a lot of the problems that players have had for a long time. A lot of the problems that coaches have had, it’s also gonna probably help solve the problem of so many players are coming on these NIL deals to these schools and then they transfer out to go to another school ’cause that’s where they’re gonna get another deal.

But this may open the opportunity as a like kind of semi-pro league to get multi-year contracts for players. So they don’t just come play one year outta school and then hop to another place. Yeah. They might be able to say, okay, yeah, I’ll sign a three year contract for this amount [00:32:00] of money, whatever they can negotiate and whatever their agents are negotiating.

So it seems like this could be a step in the right direction, but there’s a lot of unknowns still.

Dr. Ryan Denison: And one thing I would add is I’m really curious to see how the schools go about helping these kids learn how to manage that money. I can imagine, oh, being paid millions of dollars now. I was 18 years old.

Yeah. And so if these schools start to treat the athletes as employees where they’re like, yeah, we’re giving you the money up to you to figure out how to use it, that’s gonna be a recipe for disaster. If they start building into the kind of the athletic curriculum. How do you manage your money? How do you pay your taxes?

Do they start getting accountants that step in and help out?

Micah Tomasella: Yep.

Dr. Ryan Denison: I mean, there’s lots of gray areas where some schools can step in and I think even beyond the money really make a difference in these kids’ lives that teach them lessons that extend well beyond the playing field. Which again, is part of the, one of the things that theoretically these student athletes are getting when they go to a school is they’re getting an education that sets ’em up for life.

That’s right. If they get an opportunity to learn how to manage money by actually having money, then that could be great. If they end up [00:33:00] leaving owing back taxes and broke because they have no idea what to do with, with all this newfound income, then I think it’s just gonna exacerbate an already problematic system.

That’s a great question.

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. And you’re gonna see, and you’re gonna see stuff and you know, I don’t know that I’m paying enough attention here, but there’s probably already new industries jumping up such as particularly agents, right? Yeah, no, no doubt. So there’s a whole new level of agents that have typically been in the professional sports, that are now in these sports.

Conner Jones: They’re not even just that, there’s not technically a certification process for these agents, like there is for the pro leagues. Oh, wow. So you got these just basically people are like, Hey, I’m an agent. And they’re, they’re, they’re making these families believe that they’re a trustworthy person and they’re taking advantage of these families because they’re just, they’re like, my kid’s just in high school.

I don’t know anything. Hope God is through it, but without a certification process, which hopefully that comes down the line with the settlement as well. You just have

Micah Tomasella: amateur hour out there. So yeah. So there are some things being floated the next six to 12 months of this is huge. I’m gonna lay out a few of those things real quick, but I just want to put some real numbers behind this.

Okay. The [00:34:00] highest NIL valuation for a college athlete is with Arch Manning, the quarterback for the Texas Longhorns long line of legacy when it comes to great quarterbacks, right? Yeah. So Arch Manning has a $6.8 million valuation, has major deals with companies like Red Bull, right? Adding to already a very long line and list of advertisers and people who are sponsoring him.

So these top athletes are living in a new era, and this, this ruling, like we’re talking about is just making it official. But here are the ideas that are being floated. The work is in progress for the next six to 12 months will be critical. So athlete unions might start popping up. Oh wow. It could allow bargaining, but mostly viable in the Power Five conferences, the largest conferences.

But there’s most likely going to be unions. I mean, just like in the MLB, there’s an M-L-B-P-A, there’s a players association that represents the players as a whole.

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah.

Micah Tomasella: And then that the other side is the owners. And in the same way, it’ll be the schools and then the athletes that could help federal [00:35:00] legislation.

It’s possible, but it’s in a politically gridlocked spot right now to kind of fix it. Tiered participation. So schools could then choose whether to opt in or where they want to opt in. So there’s some ideas being floated about if you’re a Houston Christian University, is there a way they could opt in at a lower level with other smaller schools that want to compete as well?

And then finally, I think this is the thing that probably just needs to happen and that it will is tight, is more tight, NIL oversight. Things like salary caps. Things like somebody actually running it, like a committee running it and saying, here’s what’s fair, here’s what’s not fair. But I just wanna jump into the spiritual application of it that it makes me think of.

And then I’d love to get y’all’s thoughts. This, this ruling is creating major gaps. Some athletes are getting millions, others are getting nothing. They’re being ignored. Same sport, same work, different outcome. It sounds unfair and it’s something sounding unfair, also sounds and feels familiar. We’ve all felt that way before, right?

Something being unfair. We all feel the pull of comparison [00:36:00] in our lives. Who’s getting, who’s getting what? Who’s ahead? Who’s being noticed? Comparison steals joy and it blurs our view of what God is actually doing in our lives. And the scripture I wanna call to here is in Philippians four 11 through 12.

And Paul writes this, not that I’m speaking of being in need for, I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. I know how to be brought low and I know how to abound in any and every circumstance. I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance, and need. So if anybody could learn to be content and we should listen, it’s Paul, that dude went through a whole lot in the face of every type of adversity you could ever think of.

He preached the gospel, he stayed faithful. So what’s the, what’s the lesson for us through this? He had to learn, commitment sorry. Contentment. I think maybe we should too. So here’s the challenge. Let’s not look sideways. Look at everybody else’s race. Let’s look up. Focus on our race, celebrate other people’s wins in your [00:37:00] lives, and then thank God that you are where you are right now.

You don’t need someone else’s story to live out your purpose. And then contentment isn’t about settling for less, it’s about trusting God with the timing, the path, and the outcome.

Dr. Mark Turman: Oh, great stuff. Great stuff in this. Yeah. Thanks for bringing us into that because it’s so much to think about. And one thing that, as you were describing it is, is like so many things in life, this is really complex and it’s been complex and it’s been big business.

It’s also been in some ways abusive. You can, you can argue this in a lot of ways. You can hear people saying they always did get paid. They got free college and they didn’t go away with college loans. And then you could turn it the, the way you turned it a minute ago, which is, you know, hey, these universities were making billions of dollars off of essentially very cheap or free labor.

And then there’s always the rule of unintended consequences, right? There’s gonna, there’s gonna be stuff that grows out of the way that it’s being addressed now that nobody anticipated growing [00:38:00] out. Yep. And then one of the, one of the spiritual things that hits, you know, now, now we kind of have to really kind of say, I don’t know that we really can call this semi-pro anymore when you’re, when it’s operating at this level with these kind of dollars.

How could that be called semi anything?

And it also brings, you know, I love that you focus on contentment because it’s one of the biggest spiritual values for us to embrace. And Paul is talking in a financial sense when he is saying this to the Philippian church, he’s talking about material financial stuff.

Micah Tomasella: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Mark Turman: And one of the things I learned is of pastoring churches and in my own personal experience, money creates as many and possibly more problems than it solves. And I remember when one of my favorite college athletes said, you know, was talking about this. And I thought to myself. If I was 18 or 20 years old and you put me in an environment where a hundred thousand people had come to watch me do something, I’m not sure I would be sane.

I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be sane. Yeah. Very hard to stay humble and, and if you add hundreds of [00:39:00] thousands or Ill even millions of dollars to, oh by the way, millions of people are coming to watch what I do week in and week out, and they’re giving me a ridiculous amount of money to do it and I’m 1820.

Just a kid

Micah Tomasella: still. Yeah.

Dr. Mark Turman: How could you expect there not to be a lot of really crazy outcomes in that world,

Conner Jones: Ryan Conner. Yeah, I I just can’t imagine sitting in my dorm room, turning on the TV and my face is on ESPN because they’re talking about me. Yeah. And the way I performed in the game on Saturday, you know that that’d be crazy.

So everything you guys just said is so true. There’s a lot of applications, things that we are not sure how this will play out in the future. There will be unintended consequences. There’s probably gonna be some great blessings that come out of it as well. We’ll just see. Hopefully this brings more athletes to a great platform.

They’re like, I can now afford to go to school and focus on this without having to like their ath athleticism as opposed to being focused on having to work or whatever it is. I don’t know, I think there’s gonna be some great things that come out of it as well. But that’s my [00:40:00] thoughts. Yeah,

Dr. Ryan Denison: I mean, I think y’all have covered most covered it.

And, and the one thing I would add is just I do think it also just kind of further raises that temptation for kids that haven’t ascended to that level yet to think, okay, if I just like school’s not. Potentially that important. ’cause if I can get that athletic scholarship, I’m set for life. Whether I make it to the pros or not, like I’ll be a millionaire.

And like kind of, there’s already so much of a temptation for young athletes to think that sports can be kind of the way that they make it in life. And I think this is gonna exacerbate that to an extent. But at the same time that temptation’s always gonna be there. And so I think learning to manage that well is just part of being a good athlete, part of using those gifts.

And I think so much of it does go back to and I think that’s one of the lessons we can take is it goes back to the idea of if God has gifted you in a certain area, he is also asked you to use those gifts. And I think with athletes, they’re asked to use ’em. There, there’s accountability too because like I’ll mentioned, there’s gonna be contracts, there’s millions of people watching, there’s millions of dollars involved now.

[00:41:00] But for all of us, I mean, if God has gifted you in a certain area, he has done so with the expectation that you will use those gifts well and it’s a call to stewardship.

Dr. Mark Turman: Good point. Amen. Good point. All right, let’s move into another area. We wanna talk about something that for me was significant when I was 20 and starting out in ministry and then kind of faded out, and that is just a focus on gambling.

Conner, take us into some of the issues that are rising relative to sports and sports gambling these days.

Conner Jones: Yeah. First off, it kind of actually ties into everything we just talked about with the ncaa. I’ll hit on that in a minute. And the warning you gave Mark about money and the what it can cause and temptation and greed and all of that, and all ties back into that.

And there’s a lot of warnings in scripture, and I’ll hit on a few of those. But basically sports gambling’s, I mean, we’re, we’re approaching like it being an epidemic like it, it is so widespread in America now, and particularly among the younger generations and young men specifically. It is. It just, it grabs you and [00:42:00] it’s hard to get out of.

Gambling, if you get really into it, it’s a very big addicting thing. People have always known that, but there’s never been such ease of access. And that’s because in 2018, the Supreme Court struck down a decision that basically prevented sports gambling across the US except for in Nevada. So it used to be you had to go to Las Vegas if you wanted a sports gamble, or you had to use an illegal bookkeeper, which was a common thing.

But now it’s legal in 39 states and in DC and in Puerto Rico. And so you’ve got so many people that are sitting on their phones just placing bets. Yeah. And it’s,

Dr. Mark Turman: you know, this is crazy. It’s, it’s it’s old, but it’s new. Tell you a little personal story. The very first MLB ball game I ever went to, I was 10 years old.

My sister took me to the Houston Astrodome. I saw the dreaded Houston Astros. Ryan and I share a particular feeling there. We all share it, we all share it, we all share that. But in those days, it was the Astros in what I consider to be then and now, the ugliest uniform I’ve ever seen. Sorry to all my friends in Houston.

[00:43:00] But they were playing the Cincinnati Reds and they were playing against Pete Rose. Oh yeah. Pete Rose at the top of his career. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. My sister prepped me by telling me, Hey, this guy slides face forward. Nobody else does that. And I remember going into the Astrodome kind of praying that I would get to see him do this.

So had seats eight 12 rows up from the field, and I got to see Pete Rose do a headfirst slide. That’s awesome. Which was just absolutely phenomenal. And then. Pete Rose blows up his career by gambling on his own team. Yep. So anyway, not to derail you kind. No, it’s,

Conner Jones: it’s true. It’s always been a thing.

There’s always been athletes shoeless Joe Jackson with the White Sox, right? Yeah. There’s always

Micah Tomasella: been Shoeless Joe reference, man.

Dr. Mark Turman: Wow. That guy big right there. Stuff. I’m just, he, he, I’m genuine. Like he had to compete with you. Mic. I’m genuinely impressed. I mean,

Conner Jones: it kind of just hit me a minute ago. Wow.

I was thinking about history. Shoeless Joe, there’s just, the point is there’s always [00:44:00] been gambler, there’s always been the temptation even for players and there still is today. In fact, we got some NBA players who are currently under investigation. Jte Porter from the Toronto Raptors.

Dr. Ryan Denison: Yeah.

Conner Jones: Was given a lifetime ban.

Mike Pete Rose was Lifetime Band from the MLB because he was quite literally gambling on the games he was in and messing with his stats. Who was the player that just got in trouble? And then Malik Beasley. Yeah. On the Detroit Pistons is being investigated currently. He’s probably gonna get suspended because there’s quite literally some footage of him very clearly not playing good defense about to say in all these clips.

He was betting on his own unders. Yeah. Essentially is the, is the the charge there is that so

Micah Tomasella: many clips where he was making like, just airheaded mistake after airheaded mistake at the end of certain games.

Dr. Mark Turman: Okay. Number one, you guys know more about sports than you should know. I’m just calling all three of you out.

You just know more than you should know. I can just, the shoeless Joe Jackson comment took us down this road. Okay. But here’s the, the other thing that just jumps into my mind at this moment is we are all, we all have been talking [00:45:00] about learning, about reading, about writing, about podcasting, about. How we’ve lost confidence in the government.

Mm-hmm. We’ve lost confidence in education. We’ve lost confidence in medicine. Now are we getting, heading down the road because of gambling? We, oh, we no longer feel like we can trust the sports that we enjoy. Because these guys are hedging their own performance. It’s a

Conner Jones: great question. There’s a lot of people that are like, the leagues have to make sure they, this is why they’re, they’re putting down these lifetime bands.

’cause they’re like, if we let players get away with this and not put a severe punishment, it will continue to, to spiral.

Dr. Mark Turman: But, but let me, let me challenge that thought a little bit from a standpoint of, but now we’ve rolled back the penalty that Pete Rose was, that was put on him.

Conner Jones: Yeah. That, that’s true.

If we

Dr. Mark Turman: weigh long enough, we’re gonna okay. We’ll just forget. I, I do think the, I’m sorry to take us down a road. I do think

Dr. Ryan Denison: the penalty on P Rose was like, he can get in now that he’s dead. He can’t get in while you’re alive, which still kind of this pretty steep

Micah Tomasella: penalty.

Dr. Ryan Denison: Yeah. Okay. So I guess it’s still there, but if, okay.

What you’re caring about [00:46:00] is a legacy that survives you, then yeah. That’s not that big. That’s not as big of an impediment as it used to be.

Dr. Mark Turman: Okay. Ryan, thank, thanks for bringing us back to Grace. It was a good call. Bring us back to Grace. All right, Conner, keep going.

Conner Jones: Yeah. Anyway, so we got all these states that have legalized it and since that’s happened we’ve seen $330 billion wagered on games.

Ryan, you wrote an article earlier this spring about March Madness, specifically in some of the betting in that regards. March Madness had $3.1 billion wagered on it this year, which is insane. We got. Estimates saying 20 to 40% of US adults are gambling on sports. Wow. Now, this can take place in fantasy football.

This can play take place just on your phone watching a game. I would venture to say each of us, and probably a lot of people listening to this, cannot listen to or watch a show without getting some sort of gambling ads in relation to sports. You’re listening to a podcast, you’re probably gonna hear a draftings or FanDuel advertisement, right?

Yep. You’re watching a game live and the like, FanDuel or ES ESPN BET thing comes up showing you the odds for this this specific you know, [00:47:00] quarter or whatever. It’s, and you can literally get on your phone and bet on it right then and there it is. Live betting. It’s even gone beyond sports. There’s call sheet and poll market.

You can bet on politics and the weather and everything. It’s just crazy how much gambling has taken over our culture. It’s no longer you have to walk into a literal casino or a horse racing track. It is in your hands and that’s scary. And the league’s like it. Fantasy Life Founder Matthew Berry, he recently said in an interview I was reading.

It’s taken a while to get here, but at this point, all the leagues understand how important gambling is. It’s because it’s a fan base that needs to be catered to. Studies have shown that if somebody plays fantasy sports, they’re twice as likely than an average sports fan to watch more games, buy more tickets, and buy more merch.

So all the leagues in their own way are embracing it and pushing it. Leagues like the boosted revenue. The TV networks, like the boosted viewership that comes from gambling and the states that are legalizing this, like the boosted tax revenue, there’s basically positives for each of them. They have an incentive to continue to press gambling and what they’re not recognizing, it’s like [00:48:00] there are people who are losing their entire savings.

They’re ruining their family’s finances. There are men who are blowing away all of their college savings, like young, high, high school kids are doing this. Wow. ’cause the age verification is just not great, and you only have to be 18 in a lot of states. And so yeah, you’ve got these high school seniors who are like, oh, I can make a quick buck.

No, it’s not that easy. But what they do is they convince you it is, and they bring you in. You’ll hear these advertiser advertisements and it’ll say, join FanDuel today and get $500 to play with. They’ll give you $500, and you’re like, okay, that’s house money. But the idea is to get you addicted to it.

Get addicted to the high that you feel during a game when your bet hits, but then how many bets are not hitting? That’s what they’re banking on, and that’s what’s more likely to happen. I also think it can, it can rob

Micah Tomasella: the spirit of sports and of itself.

Dr. Mark Turman: Definitely. Yeah.

Micah Tomasella: If you’re watching a game and interested in it purely because you have a ton of money writing on it, that changes the way that you, you view a game when the Dallas Cowboys inevitably [00:49:00] fail and flounder whenever they make it to the playoffs and get bounced out in the first round after another great year.

That disappointment would be even greater if I had placed all this money on it and they lose. My goodness, I’m not sure if I could recover from that.

Conner Jones: Yeah. It’s the integrity of sport. And this is what you were just talking about, does this affect the integrity of the, of not only the sport and the athletes and the refs and the coaches who could potentially be involved in under the table gambling on their own sport, but it also affects the integrity of just fandom.

Yeah. All of that. And it’s affecting so many people’s lives. And there’s parlay bets that they bring you in with for $5. You can bet on three different things that if all three of those things happen, you’ll win this big chunk of change. And so a lot of people are like, oh, just $5 and I can win 200.

That sounds great, but how many times you just keep doing That’s right. And doing that and doing that, riding that high. And then you realize if you actually go and look at your finances, there’s a good chance you are just bleeding money. And then there’s also the aspect of the mental health of the athlete.

So the NCAA actually came out and [00:50:00] said, harassment related to sports betting can actually cause serious harm to student athlete mental health and wellbeing because people are. Attacking them on social media and even in person sometimes saying, Hey, when you dropped that pass, you lost me $500. Oh,

Micah Tomasella: wow. You know, they’re blaming the athlete.

Imagine in

Conner Jones: college,

Micah Tomasella: in college, a college athlete is in this is what a lecture and a classmate who betted on the game Yep. Is upset at him because this actually

Conner Jones: happened. Yeah. This, this is, this is a real thing. And blaming people for your action of making a a a bet is totally wrong. That’s absolutely the wrong way to see it.

But it’s also, it’s just affecting a lot of things. We’ve seen other players get suspended. We’ve seen JohE, Tani’s, interpreter get

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah.

Conner Jones: Imprisoned. Wow. Because he was taking JohE Tani’s

Dr. Mark Turman: money and Gig Ruined his life. Yeah. Ruined his life. He’s the sweetest thing going ever. Yeah. It’s

Conner Jones: just, it’s crazy.

But I mean, do you guys have any just general thoughts on, on sports betting? It’s obviously just so ingrained in our culture now.

Dr. Ryan Denison: One thing I would say is that I, I do think it’s all important, just speaks to how important it’s to know kind of where you’re weak in a [00:51:00] lot of ways. Because I think there’s some people that.

They may place a $5 bet and for them it’s okay, if I don’t hit, I’m not gonna Starbucks in the morning. And that’s their mentality. Like as soon as they place the bet that money is gone, if it comes back great. Other people that are more prone to like kind of get addicted to it. Yeah. For them placing a bet’s a sin.

I, I mean, speaking for myself, like I, in that article about the NCAA a, I talked about how I’ve not really ever been all that prone to alcohol. Like I’ve never really enjoyed it that much. And so I don’t really have to worry, if I have a drink, I’m not worried about becoming an alcoholic. I do enjoy that dopamine high from kind of playing poker or doing other things like that.

And so I know for me it would be a sin to been on sports because I’m more prone to get into trouble with that.

Micah Tomasella: Hmm.

Dr. Ryan Denison: And I think one of the things Paul talks about he writes about how, you know. Not all things, like all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful, but not everything glorifies God.

Hmm. Preach. And I think that idea is important. Preach, preach. To keep in mind with this, [00:52:00] with this topic especially, is that if you know that you are prone to addiction of any sort, if you know that you are prone to chasing that high of, of winning, then gambling holds a, it holds a risk for you that it may not for other people.

Conner Jones: True.

Dr. Ryan Denison: So just ’cause you can look around and see all your friends having fun with it and not really getting into trouble doesn’t mean you won’t. And so really wanna encourage people if you have a history with this, to not even dabble to as a, as the scripture say, like flee from temptation. If you don’t, then that doesn’t mean you should start.

‘Cause it can, it can become an addiction for anybody. I think it is a, I think an example though of how, while some things are sins for everybody. Other things are sins for some people and not others based on whether or not they’re likely to lead to addiction, whether or not they’re likely to lead to making other compromises, and I think gambling’s an excellent example of that.

Conner Jones: Yeah, I mean that, that’s great. I would say another just great piece of wisdom comes from Proverbs 1311 says, wealth gained [00:53:00] hastily. Some versions say a get rich quick situation, it will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it. So the idea of just hoping you hit something so that you get an immediate sense of wealth, it’s the same thing with the lottery.

Any sort of gambling, right? And it’s easy to get the high that you’re talking about, sitting at a table and a casino is the same type of thing. That dopamine rush, if it’s a problem for you, yeah, you probably should not dabble in this because it’s dangerous. The Bible does not specifically say that you should not gamble.

There’s not a specific verse about that, but there’s so many warnings about wealth and greed and what can happen when you are so focused on money and getting rich. That you end up allowing it to ruin

Micah Tomasella: you. And also just how quickly something can become an idol. Yeah. Sports betting or sports.

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, exactly.

Definitely. Yeah. When you combine those two wealth and sports I mean it’s, you know, obviously this is a huge icon. Some of the wealthiest people in our culture are athletes. And not to knock them for that, they were pursuing their excellence. And, you know, there’s a lot [00:54:00] of a lot of reasons why that’s good and why it’s honorable in every way.

And many athletes do incredibly good things with their money. They create foundations and they help bless people in all kinds of situations. They pay for medical bills and they feed the hungry both here in the United States and other. A lot of these athletes are exemplary in that way. But you know, it just kind of astounds me.

I can remember you know, starting out, first full-time job I had as a pastor was in the season when the, the Texas lottery where we all live was being proposed. And I was a part of, of helping to inform people about the dangers of playing the lottery, which has now been with us for decades and is almost just a given.

But there’s so many inherently dangerous things in here. These things can, you know, and the culture that fully embraces gambling hides the, the stories of brokenness they hide. Oftentimes, the statistics of the number of people who have really damaged or [00:55:00] ruined their lives, ruined their marriages, ruined their families.

Because they were deceived. Much of what we’ve been talking about is deception to try to pull you in. And that’s the way almost all addictions work is it works with it with a deceptive type of approach. And Conner just made me think of another Proverbs verse that says, you know, Lord, don’t give me too much.

Or I’ll forget about you, or Don’t give me too little or I’ll curse you. Give me my portion. Gimme the portion that’s gonna take care of me. And that’s gonna create that sense of contentment in my life. Because we live in a world in which so many of us think that having a lot of money and having a lot of fame is what real living is all about.

And the Bible speaks very clearly against those realities. All right, guys, we got just a little bit more to go and there’s so many more things we want to say, but let’s step aside, catch our breath one more time, and we’re gonna come back with one more topic. All right. Welcome back to the Denon Forum podcast.

We’re talking about sports, faith [00:56:00] and culture, and lots of big stuff to think about here that we’re all hearing about almost every day. But guys, I want to kind of bring us to maybe kind of some of a landing spot just to kind of tell you guys, because I am older than you so I can you know, I can mentor you in these ways.

But I will tell you when it comes to faith and when it comes to kind of ground level living where we all are, you guys are all dads. I’m a dad. I’m a granddad now, and my daughter just told me a few days ago, Hey, signing up her oldest child, seven years old, to play her first more organized sport, she’s gonna play volleyball.

Okay? Super excited about that because her mother, my daughter was a varsity athlete and a. Kind of peeked over the fence about playing college volleyball. So we had a great run in that. But where you guys may be headed as young dads and where many people are right now is how do [00:57:00] sports, the pressure of sports for children and for teenagers, how does that work when it comes to the spirit spiritual development of that child and the way the family operates?

Are you guys thinking about that? Are you just trying to not think about it until you get there? Did you deal with it when you were a teenager? And lemme lemme give you one quick story. In the town I grew up in, in east Texas, there was a baseball team that was playing in the playoffs for the city championship.

And they had a key game that that came up on the schedule. And on this baseball team was one of the best players whose faith was that of a Seventh Day Adventist. And this player had told his coach before the season, Hey, if it gets to this time of day during the week, I cannot play in this in this window of time.

I don’t know exactly what that window of time was for him as a Seventh Day Adventist obviously [00:58:00] probably had something to do with Saturday, but he had told his coach right up, if we get to this point, I cannot play the game anymore. And it came up that in this particular game, all of the players didn’t show up.

Some of them just they were on vacation or they had other commitments or whatever. So there were only nine players on the field for this kid’s team. And we got up to that window where he told his coach, if we get here, I can’t play anymore. And it got to that point, he walked off the field, told his coach.

Coach, I’m sorry, but I gotta go. They had to forfeit the game and the coach nobly, I think, looked at this young man and said, it’s not your fault. It’s the teammates who didn’t make it here today. Anyway, families are dealing with things perhaps not that, that severe, but this whole idea, I can tell you honestly, just struggled that with this as a pastor, also struggled with this [00:59:00] as a parent because like I said, I had a, a child that played varsity athletes varsity sports, and there were constantly tournaments and games and all kinds of things that were set right in conflict with doing important and valuable spiritual development things, particularly in the context of our local church

Dr. Ryan Denison: Thoughts.

I know it’s something that my wife and I have talked about. ’cause our, our son loves baseball and we know a lot of people that do travel ball baseball. He’s got friends that are gonna be starting to do that soon. And those tournaments start on Sunday mornings. And one of the things we’ve talked about and prayed about is that we’re just not willing to Ms.

Church. I, I don’t wanna be dogmatic about that. I think it’s should be a conversation between you and your wife and or your, you and your spouse and God. But at the same time, I do think it’s important to keep in mind that if you choose to ever kind of choose sports at a time when it’s seem, [01:00:00] when the more, when the other decision would be to go to church or to do something spiritual, to have those conversations with your kids.

To look for ways to make that time up to be intentional about redeeming that in ways that if you feel like God is, just to go back to travel ball, if you feel like God has called you to play travel ball baseball and it’s gonna require missing church. Make sure you’re there on Wednesday nights, then listen to the sermon on the way to the tournament.

Make time to carve out so that your kids know, yes, we’re doing this, but God is still important. God is still more important. But mostly just pray about it. And I would say let the bar be God convincing you that it’s right to do versus just looking for God to tell you. No, I think it’s the default in these situations should always be God first and whatever that looks like.

And I, I do think that, I don’t wanna say that God will never lead someone to make a different, to make a choice. That would mean you Ms. Church on some Sundays to go to a travel ball tournament. I think God could do that sometimes, but I think that would [01:01:00] probably, my guess would be that’s more the exception than the rule.

And I, I just would hope that everyone who makes that choice is praying about it first. Because I think that’s, that, that’s the chance, that’s, I think that’s the danger of it, is when we kind of run the risk of. Teaching our kids through our actions that we say church is important until it comes into conflict with something we want to do.

And I think sports have a unique ability to test that, especially if you’re passionate about it. So that would be my encouragement, is just to make sure that you’re praying through it, that it’s a conversation between you and your spouse and even involve your local church. And make sure that if you’re, that whatever choice you’re making, it’s, it’s grounded in faith and it’s grounded in the wisdom of God.

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. That’s so good. Ryan, you guys, did you guys run into this as you were coming up through your teen years? I know you’re not there yet with your kids, but have you run into this in some way?

Micah Tomasella: Ran into it some growing up. I mean, I, we’re not there yet. Our girls are young, so it’s something to think about.

I just kind of keep coming back [01:02:00] to, it’s a balance, just like almost anything else in our lives. And also if you are intentional as a family, as mom and dad to carve out rhythms and priorities. No matter what comes in the face of that, this is what we do, this is how we do it, this is what we are about.

And nothing gets in the way of that. Now that that doesn’t mean that you can’t get flexible and you can’t be flexible because I don’t think the answer is also to not let your kids be involved in sports because maybe this sport will conflict with something on Sunday from time to time. My goodness. I think we can all say that we learned the value of hard work, teamwork, and action.

Being able to take criticism from a coach. Yeah. And being able to apply it. Mm-hmm. Being humble in victory, finding joy, and a way to work on it in defeat the life. Lessons in sports can last for a lifetime, so you don’t wanna rob your kids of that either. But at the same time, that can’t become your religion very quickly.

It can [01:03:00] become your religion. So it’s a balance. Yeah, that’s great. Great insight, Conner.

Conner Jones: Yeah, I, I fully agree with that. I’m thinking about a lot of the professional athletes they play on Sundays, right? Yeah. In fact, golf, Scotty Scheffler, who we talked about at the beginning of this podcast, he golfs every week from Thursday to Sunday in tournaments.

He hopes to be playing. Yeah. He, he

Dr. Mark Turman: wants to be playing on Sundays. That’s, that’s, he almost always is,

Conner Jones: that’s the whole thing there. But he’s still, you know, he is intentional in his faith. There are other ways to apply faith and all of that. But I do, I, I do remember as a kid, there was only one time, ’cause I did not really play, like I said, I was not a great athlete, but there was one time my game got delayed from Saturday, Sunday for weather purposes.

And I remember my parents were like, you’re not gonna get there until the second half ’cause we’re going to church. And I was like, come on. So I went to church in my jersey. Like I, I, they dropped me off at the game as soon as they could, but that was the way it was. And I think it’s different.

It’s like you’re saying, Ryan, you gotta pray through this, figure this out for your family and for your kids what’s best. But you never know when God is also crafting an incredible talent for these individuals. Like your kids are, are they actually on a path to use this as a [01:04:00] platform in some way for the gospel?

Like Scotty Scheffer, like a bunch of athletes, you know?

Micah Tomasella: And then, and then maybe if they’re not, you know, maybe you could scale back a little bit. Know maybe if your kid’s not that good, no. Maybe you should get ’em to church.

Conner Jones: Yeah, I think everything you said Micah earlier about don’t let it become the religion.

I’d say this is just about sports fandom in general. For those of us who don’t play sports anymore or really anything, really anything like if, if you are getting so emotionally invested in a sports team or a game specifically that it’s affecting your thinking process, then it’s hitting your faith, right?

Yeah. Faith in God is number one. You should not be letting anything get you that riled up. Just like you should not be letting anything else like sports. It could be something, it could be your job, it could be whatever it is in your day-to-day, week, you know it, whatever it is, it should not be taking precedent over the Lord.

That’s ultimately what it comes down to.

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. A great, great call out makes me think of some of things my pastor taught me. You know, he would, he would talk and preach at times about, Hey, less newspaper, more Bible. You know? Hmm. And if, if you know a whole bunch of sports stats. But you don’t know very many Bible [01:05:00] verses.

There might be a issue for you as a believer that you might want to think about and talk about. But that’s none of us though. That’s none of us. We’re good. But yeah, we’re good to go. Yeah. We’re gonna, we’re gonna close here in a minute with a, a verse that we were talking about offline that Ryan’s gonna share with us.

But really some great things to think about and, and something we should call out many. Of the professional sports, many of the college sports and teams, they have faith opportunities for their athletes.

Micah Tomasella: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Dr. Mark Turman: That are built into the rhythms of the way that their sports work. I have a good friend who’s connected to our ministry, some who has been the chaplain for a number of years, for one of the major college football teams.

And he has had enormous opportunities to share his faith and to pour into college athletes who may know almost nothing about Christianity or they don’t know how to live out their faith as young men in the environment. And so he’s had an opportunity to disciple them and to be a part of that because this university and that football coach said we are gonna have a [01:06:00] chaplain.

And you don’t have to participate, but it’s here if you wanna participate. I have another really good friend of mine who helped lead our church. His daughter was a really great soccer player. She went on to play college soccer on a scholarship, and he’s, and she had a, a practice that was happening every Wednesday night, so she couldn’t be in our youth program.

So he said to her, Hey, you’re gonna have to go find a church in the area that has a student ministry that happens on Tuesday night or Thursday night because you need to be a part of something like this. She went and did that. And then, you know, other stories of her and others who look for ways to, to, even in an early age, turn those platforms into platforms to share and show their faith.

And like you said, Micah, Mongo, in the way that you lose an incredible opportunity to show your faith and when you win. All of that is a way to, to live out your faith. Even if it doesn’t always happen exactly the way we at least think. It used to happen before the world didn’t [01:07:00] gather up the calendar the way the world gathers up the calendar now with little to no respect for what people of faith people in churches may be doing.

Ryan, you had a great verse that I thought might be a good capstone for our conversation today. You wanna share that with us?

Dr. Ryan Denison: Yeah, I think, and it really goes back to what you’re saying, and it’s the second half of that verse I mentioned earlier from Paul where he says, all things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful.

He follows that up by saying, all things are lawful for me, but I will not be dominated by anything. And I think as we think about just the ease with which, if you’re passionate about sports, that it can take over your life and. I mean, we were talking earlier about how like today was one, we started the conversation by talking about how today is one of the darkest days on the sports calendar.

’cause there’s nothing going on and it’s like dark days. Maybe it’s the brightest day, maybe no, it really is,

Micah Tomasella: it’s a dark day.

Dr. Ryan Denison: But to some extent, like just turning on the tv, looking through and not having any sports to watch like that, that is [01:08:00] something that creates a sadness, is maybe an indication that sports are a little too important at times.

And I think all of us kind of have that. And if you’re not a huge fan of sports and is still stuck it out to the end of this conversation, first off. Thank you. But secondly, like all of us have something in our lives that mm-hmm. Satan will use to try and dominate us. Yeah. And keep us away from God.

And I think that’s just, whether it’s sports or politics or whatever it may be in your life, just be aware of what that is. Ask the Holy Spirit to let you know what it is and then make sure that. You understand that just because there it’s not inherently bad does not make it good, and doesn’t mean that it’s something that God wants to have a great deal of influence in your life and really kind of take that to God and just ask God, is there anything in my life that threatens to kick you off your throne as my top priority?

And then listen. And whatever he shows you, take that into account when you’re thinking about how you’re gonna [01:09:00] spend your time, how you spend your energy, how you spend your resources. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, God really is the only thing that should dominate any aspect of our lives.

Dr. Mark Turman: I don’t think we can end anywhere better than that.

Ryan, thanks for that. And guys, thanks Conner. Micah, thanks for being a part of the conversation. You can catch Conner and Micah on Culture Brief and we hope that this conversation has been helpful and useful to you. If it has, please rate review us, share this with others so that they can find the Denison Forum podcast.

And we look forward to seeing you next time and for our next conversation. God bless you. We’ll see you soon.

Micah Tomasella: See ya. Bye.

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Wednesday, July 23, 2025

Biblical living

Following Christ in a sports-obsessed world

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