Why are some atheists becoming Christians?

On this episode of the Denison Forum Podcast, Dr. Mark Turman welcomes theologian and scientist Dr. Alister McGrath for a thought-provoking conversation on the relationship between science, faith, and the rise of New Atheism. Together, they examine the influence of voices like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, and how their arguments have ironically led some to consider the Christian faith more seriously. 

Drawing from Dr. McGrath’s book Coming to Faith Through Dawkins, the discussion highlights powerful stories of former atheists who encountered Christ through intellectual inquiry and personal reflection. This episode encourages believers to approach cultural and scientific questions with both clarity and compassion, showing how reason and faith can work hand in hand in today’s world.

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Summary

• (00:59): Introducing Dr. Alister McGrath
• (02:00): Dr. McGrath’s journey from Atheism to faith
• (05:02): Current ministry and reflections on faith in the UK
• (07:58): The New Atheism movement
• (09:15): Personal stories of faith transformation
• (19:01): Critique of Richard Dawkins and New Atheism
• (24:42): Contributors and their unique journeys
• (29:10): The misuse of history by New Atheists
• (34:34): The myth of conflict between science and faith
• (38:51): Old Atheists vs. New Atheists
• (43:21): The role of faith in the scientific community
• (50:24): The impact of the pandemic on Scientism
• (56:16): The importance of personal faith stories

Resources

• Ask Us Anything: [email protected]
• Alister E. McGrath
• Coming to Faith Through Dawkins: 12 Essays on the Pathway from New Atheism to Christianity
• The Dawkins Delusion?
• C. S. Lewis: A Life 
• How has Denison Forum impacted your faith?
• Subscribe to The Daily Article by Dr. Jim Denison
• Stand. Engage. Transform. summer campaign.

About Dr. Alister McGrath

Dr. Alister E. McGrath is a former atheist who studied natural sciences at Oxford before switching to theology and becoming an Anglican priest. He served as the Andreas Idreos Professor of Science and Religion at the University of Oxford from 2014 to 2022. He holds three doctorates from Oxford in molecular biophysics, theology, and intellectual history. McGrath is also the author of the international bestseller The Dawkins Delusion?, as well as C. S. Lewis: A Life and his latest book, Coming to Faith Through Dawkins: 12 Essays on the Pathway from New Atheism to Christianity.

About Dr. Mark Turman

Mark Turman, DMin, serves as the Executive Director of Denison Forum, where he leads with a passion for equipping believers to navigate today’s complex culture with biblical truth. He is best known as the host of The Denison Forum Podcast and the lead pastor of the Possum Kingdom Chapel, the in-person congregation of Denison Ministries.

Dr. Turman is the coauthor of Sacred Sexuality: Reclaiming God’s Design and Who Am I? What the Bible Says About Identity and Why it Matters. He earned his undergraduate degree from Howard Payne University in Brownwood, Texas, and received his Master of Divinity from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. He later completed his Doctor of Ministry at George W. Truett Theological Seminary at Baylor University in Waco.

Before joining Denison Forum, Mark served as a pastor for 35 years, including 25 years as the founding pastor of Crosspoint Church in McKinney, Texas.

Mark and his high school sweetheart, Judi, married in 1986. They are proud parents of two adult children and grandparents to three grandchildren.

About Denison Forum

Denison Forum exists to thoughtfully engage the issues of the day from a biblical perspective through The Daily Article email newsletter and podcast, The Denison Forum Podcast, as well as many books and additional resources.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

NOTE: This transcript was AI-generated and has not been fully edited. 

Dr. Mark Turman: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Denison Forum podcast. I’m Dr. Mark Turman, executive director of Denon Forum and host for today’s conversation. We like to talk about faith and culture, where they intersect, uh, where they sometimes challenge and compete with each other. Our goal at the Denison Forum is to help the church, to help believers to understand today’s culture from a biblical perspective and to respond with redeeming, uh, grace, influence, and truth.

Through God’s word and through God’s spirit, thank you for being a part of this conversation. Over the last couple of decades, particularly, there’s been a lot of conversation about how science and faith either compete or combat with each other. Uh, today we’re gonna talk about how they compliment each other.

Uh, you may have heard of this movement called the New Atheism. That started to arise about 20 years ago, right after nine 11. Somewhat sparked and maybe even ignited by, uh, the nine 11 attack. [00:01:00] But we’re gonna talk today with Dr. Alistair McGrath. He and his friend Dennis Alexander, have compiled a very powerful and interesting book.

That is called Coming to Faith through Dawkins. You may have heard of Richard Dawkins, Peter Singer, Christopher Hitchens. They’re sometimes referred to as the new atheist who have said that, uh, that religion is of no value to our world and that science is the only way to discover actual truth. Dr.

McGrath and Dr. Alexander challenged that notion. Uh, so through a series of essays from scientists, journalists, a graphic designer, a pastor who started out as atheist, but through the questions of Richard Dawkins and others. Actually started to ask even deeper questions that ultimately resulted in their conversion to Christianity and their becoming defenders of Christianity.

Let me remind you who [00:02:00] Dr. McGrath is. Alistair McGrath is a former atheist himself. Who studied natural sciences at Oxford until he was led through his own questions to switch to theology. He just recently retired as Professor of Science and Religion at Oxford, and is author of the very well-known book The Dawkins Delusion.

Atheist fundamentalism and the denial of the divine. Today we have a very interesting, powerful conversation about how science and faith actually work together to bring us closer to God. So we’re excited to have you along for the journey. Thanks for joining us, Dr. McGrath. Welcome to the Denison Forum Podcast.

We’re glad to have you with us. And I’m delighted to be here. Thank you for having me. Well, this is an exciting and unique form of writing, uh, based on some of the other things that you’ve done. The book is called Coming to Faith through Dawkins, 12 Essays on the Pathway from New Atheism [00:03:00] to Christianity.

Uh, look forward to getting into some of the details about this book and the background of the book. Uh, but it’s something of a unique approach for a. Christian apologist, a cultural, uh, apologist such as yourself. Um, but I wondered before we talk about some of the stories that are contained in the book, if you would tell our listeners a little bit about your own journey of faith and, uh, what you are doing now in ministry.

Well, thank you very much for, 

Dr. Alister McGrath: for asking me to do that. I mean, I, I was a, an atheist. Teenager. I rebelled against Christianity, and one of the reasons was that because I felt that science and religion were oppositional and I loved science as a teenager, so that drove my atheism. I felt I had to choose. I couldn’t be.

A scientist and a religious believer. So I chose science and I think I began to become very dogmatic about my atheism and feeling that in effect, uh, people who believed in God were mad or [00:04:00] bad or sad or possibly all three. And it wasn’t really till I arrived at Oxford, Oxford University, where I met some very intelligent Christians who, um, in effect were very happy to talk about their faith, about the relationship with science and faith, whole series of things like this.

And I began to realize I had mis misjudged. Things. So actually what I had done really was to. Reject a caricature of Christianity rather than the real thing. And I think it just shows how you, when you encounter a, a living, an exciting version of faith, that really does make you rethink things. And I think that’s one of the reasons why I decided to become an apologist, because I rejected Christianity.

’cause I did not understand it. And so for me, one of the great things about apologetics is trying to be able to explain to people what Christianity really is and showing them why it’s so exciting and so relevant. So that’s. An ongoing story, but, uh, I made a good choice, or rather, God, I hope, made a good choice in choosing me and I’m delighted to be, [00:05:00] um, 

Dr. Mark Turman: in his service at this moment.

And what is, uh, your area of ministry and service look like now? Are you currently teaching at Oxford? What is, what is your position in, in work today? 

Dr. Alister McGrath: Well, I’ve just retired from, uh, an endowed professorship at Oxford, and so I now have much more time at my disposal to be able to write, to speak, to visit people and so on.

That’s very exciting. So really, if you like, um, I, I’m, um, someone who spent my academic career understanding Christian theology and talking about relationship with science and faith and doing apologetics, and I now have more time to do all of these things, which is, in my view, really wonderful. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Well, that’s, uh, exciting to hear and your work has, uh, already been extensive and impactful and certainly, uh, confident that this new, uh, compilation of essays will be impactful as, as well.

Many of our people that listen to this podcast are, uh, active, healthy, engaged believers in local churches. Uh, [00:06:00] we would wonder, uh, I would wonder. Your general assessment right now of the movement of faith in Christianity within the uk. Obviously deep, deep connections on so many levels between the United States and the, and, uh, great Britain.

Um, but we hear various reports, uh, both positive and negative about, uh, what God is doing and how God may be stirring. In the United Kingdom, what would be your general, uh, view of that right now? 

Dr. Alister McGrath: I think we we’re seeing different things in different places. Uh, one of the, I’m afraid rather, the sad patterns we’re seeing in many established churches is that congregations are aging and young people are not coming forward to take their place.

But elsewhere, what we’re seeing is very dynamic. Churches emerge with lots of young people who are very excited about their faith and want to do things for God. So it is a mixed picture. I mean, as someone who, um, attends my local church on Sundays, [00:07:00] I’m one of the younger members of the congregation, I have to say.

Um, I, I do worry about this, but I, I’m just very grateful. There are so many younger people in university cities and all over the place who are. And so I think that, uh, it’s, it is a mixed picture, but happily, there are some very good things happening, and I’m delighted to be involved in some of those. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah.

Fantastic. Well, we’ll pray for that to expand, uh, across generations. But let’s, let’s talk about this book and, uh, the compilation of the book. Uh, obviously unique, uh, in that it has, uh, a multiplicity of voices, uh, that are here sharing, uh, their own journeys. Can you give us a little bit of the background of how the concept of this book came about?

Um, what, uh, what was the purpose of a, of a compilation of essays? Uh, help us understand a little bit of the background of what gave rise to this work. I. 

Dr. Alister McGrath: Yes. Thank you. That’s a very good question. Um, Dennis Alexander [00:08:00] and I know each other very well, and we talk a lot, and one of the things we, we talk about a lot is the impact of the new atheism.

And one of the things each of us noticed is that we had met. People who wanted to do various things like study science and religion. And very often when we asked them What got you interested in these questions, they would say, well, you know, we read Richard Dawkins, we were atheists then. And then he made us rethink things and we went and read some Christian books and we decided we’d become Christians instead.

And we, we were quite surprised by this. And as we compared notes, we began to realize this, that this is actually. A systematic pattern. A lot of people were reading Richard Dawkins expecting their atheism to be reinforced. In fact, it was called into question because he’s very shrill, he’s very superficial.

He is very aggressive for all kinds of argumentative shortcuts. And people were saying, well, I think I need to check this out for myself. So they would read people like CS Lewis and. Tim Keller and others [00:09:00] and would discover something very, very different that they liked. And so they become Christians as a result.

And so what we found was a lot of these people didn’t want to put into, put, put into print their, their ideas because they felt this might be difficult for ’em. But in the end we found 12 people from five different nations who were very happy to tell their stories. And the story is that of Dawkins being a catalyst either into the faith or growing in their faith.

And Dennis and I both felt, wouldn’t it be wonderful to let these people tell their stories in their own way, in their own words? Because in effect, each of these stories is about a life that has been transformed. S Dawkins, in effect, became a catalyst, though not I think in the way he would’ve hoped or intended for their discovery of Christian faith.

So that is the background. So eventually we found 12 people who said, we are willing to go into print, and we’re delighted they did, and I think they tell some [00:10:00] really fascinating stories. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Well, it, it is a fascinating, uh, approach to the conversation for sure. Let me pause for a moment and ask you to define for those who they may have bumped into one of these new atheists, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Peter Singer, that type of thing.

There will be some, uh, listening to us who are not familiar with the term new atheism and new atheist. Can you kind of define those for us? Certainly, uh, 

Dr. Alister McGrath: the term new atheist began to be used in 2006. Now. That’s when Richard Dawkins published his book, the God Delusion, when Sam Harris wrote his letters to a Christian nation, when Daniel de wrote Breaking the Spell, and a journalist called Gary Wolf put these three names together and said that there’s something new happening here.

It’s a different kind of atheism. It’s very slogan driven, it’s very certain about its beliefs. It’s very aggressive. And he said, look, this is something [00:11:00] new. Um, Chris Pigeons published his book the next year, so at this stage of just three people in the movement. But, uh, GA Gary Wolf sketched out this, uh, new form of atheism, which I think was very, very media friendly.

Drew a lot of favorable media attention until the media began to look more closely and discovered it was rather shallow, rather simplistic, and actually really quite aggressive. So we’re talking about movement that really came into being in 2006 with the publication of Richard Dawkins book, the God Delusion, and when Christopher Hitchins came along 2007 with God is Not Great.

That kind of way meant these four guys. Was seen as being at the forefront of a new cultural movement. And for a while, for several years, people thought this is the future, and then it began to become obvious. It was nothing of the sort. And that’s really where this book comes in. 

Dr. Mark Turman: So, uh, in, in, in that sense, it feels [00:12:00] like, uh, in some of the observations I’ve had, that there was a, a, a great deal of emotional anger behind some of these writers and thinkers, uh, a great deal of, um, maybe a desire for attention, popularity, uh, celebrity, if you will.

Uh, and some of that started to come across, uh, in your study of the new atheists. Um, have you found that, uh, they are driven by any of those things or are they, are they, uh, driven by, uh, some kind of hurt, uh, relative to faith and journeys of faith? Uh, as we often see with people who become shrill and angry, uh, about, you know, contrasting beliefs to Christianity or to any faith, uh, and, and do you sense that.

Um, are they collaborating? Are they pursuing a, a collective agenda, uh, over the last two decades or so? 

Dr. Alister McGrath: Well, I think the, the dominant emotion that I see is anger. [00:13:00] They are angry that religion exists in the first place. They are angry that people take religion seriously. They are angry with, um, critics of faith.

Who simply use argument. They want to use ridicule. They want to make fun of religious people. They want to shame people about their faith. I think that’s a very important point because what we found here in England is that many teenagers who had. Christian faith found themselves under real pressure at the high schools because the, the, the friends were saying, have you read Richard Dawkins?

He, he, he will rubbish your faith. You know, in effect, you, you, you can’t stand up, you know, you haven’t got a faith worth defending. So it was really very aggressive and I don’t think really Christian leaders were prepared for the sheer. Aggressiveness, um, and nastiness of the, the new atheist agenda. So I think it did take a lot of people by surprise, but it became very clear.

I think that the movement was simply critical. It it rubbished [00:14:00] religion, but it didn’t really have an alternative vision of reality to offer. I think that was one of the things that really made people begin to ask questions. You know, what exactly is this? It’s very, it’s very, very clear. It’s very, very certain about its beliefs, but actually it’s not really clear what good this does.

So in many ways, I think the new atheism, um, thrived for a short period because of its novelty value. Indeed. Here in Britain, we have an atheist philosopher called John Gray, and John said, look, really educat. Um, a media show. It’s, it’s not about intelligent ideas. It’s simply about gar garnering media attention.

And that’s all there is to it. It’s shallow, it’s superficial. It has nothing significant to say. Having said that, um, his, the influence of the new atheism still lingers. Even though I think it’s fading, but what I think Dennis Alexander and I hope is that this book will [00:15:00] in effect, redirect the conversation entirely because by allowing these people to tell their stories, in effect, each of these is a personal testimony to faith and it’s much more interesting an argument.

It’s about someone telling the story of how they, uh, began thinking this and then. Began to rethink and rediscover and, and suddenly found Christianity, and it was wonderful. So it’s a very moving, very exciting read, both in terms of, um, motivation, but also in terms of the ideas that will give it to readers for how they can talk about their faith to their atheist friends.

Dr. Mark Turman: Yes. And, and, and as I was working through some of the book, I was just, it, it is a very unique approach to apologetics, both, uh, what we might call traditional apologetics as well as current cultural apologetics. And there is, there is a, a great irony in this book, um, that, uh, as you point out in the preface that.

Uh, as in [00:16:00] instead of Dawkins, uh, really disin diminishing religion, uh, across a broad spectrum, he actually has triggered a fresh interest, uh, for many people in not only faith generally, but faith with depth. Uh, now you’ve spent a lifetime, uh, already, uh, helping people to, uh, understand the faith, uh, intellectually.

But one of the things that’s interesting, I think about this book is the combination of rigorous intellectual pursuit as well as, uh, personal emotional investment. Uh, can you talk about the combination of those two things as essential to Christian witness? 

Dr. Alister McGrath: Thank you. I, again, I think that’s a really good question.

Certainly. Um, a, as we read these people talking about how they came to faith through d.

What Dawkins are saying doesn’t actually really make all that much sense. In [00:17:00] other words, they’re intellectually assessing. Dawkins are saying this doesn’t really stack up his inconsistent, his arguments. His arguments don’t take him where he thinks they do, or Dawkins uses criteria to judge religious people, but he doesn’t use to assess his own beliefs.

So there’s a very strong intellectual element in many of these writers who very often have an academic background. Not all, but many. Alongside that, there’s a sense of joy, delight, the sense of inner transformation, which results from coming to faith. So we have this remarkable synergy of head and heart in these stories, and that’s one of the reasons why I find ’em so moving.

They are in effect talking about the transformation of their lives. And I think readers will will find the them really interesting. ’cause they’ll say, oh, I can relate to that one. Oh, that’s really good. That helps me. And, and it will because these people are in effect, um, if you like that they’re almost like representative.

Most people reading this book will be able to say, [00:18:00] that guy I. Is where I am. That’s really helpful. It helps me to work out how to talk to my friends. So I think you’re right. Head and heart both matter and many of these stories really make that connection very powerfully. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. I’ll give you one, one example that really just caught my attention.

I was reading the essay by Johan Rasmus, an an African, and uh, at the end of his story he says, you know, I sometimes feel like I have to be converted every morning at least. Through, uh, a couple of cups of coffee. Uh, his, his honesty and his, uh, description of continuing battles off and on with various levels of doubt and the ongoing pursuit of faith.

I just resonated very deeply with some of those thoughts. I’ve, I’ve made statements at times similar to that, of. I, I feel like I need to be converted all over again and speaks to the journey of faith, not just simply to the events of faith, uh, both of [00:19:00] which are important. Um, I was wondering, you’re, you’re very careful, especially in the beginning of this book to say, look, this is not intended to be some kind of an attack upon Richard Dawkins personally.

Um, and uh, I’ve even had, uh, others say to me, you know, Richard Dawkins is fabulous, and these other, uh, so-called new atheists are in certain categories of, uh, science and intellectual pursuit. They are exceptional thinkers. But as one, uh, apologist said to me, Richard Dawkins just needs to stay in his lane.

Is, is that a fair statement? 

Dr. Alister McGrath: Well, I think it is. I mean, you can be a world expert in science and not know very much about anything else. And I think that’s one of the things we see that when Richard Dawkins talks about Christianity, he gets it wrong a lot of the time. And the problem is, if I’m put like this, he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know.

He, he really thinks is I, I know what Christianity is. I won’t bother asking [00:20:00] Christians. I just tell people, here’s what Christians think. Isn’t lu of rubbish. But when you start looking at is a. Terribly inadequate, understanding. He gets things wrong all over the place, and if he had bothered to talk to Christians, he might have written a rather better book.

So I think that that’s a very important point to make, that actually many of our contributors here make the point that they simply felt that Dawkins was presenting a deficient, uh, a very misleading account of what Christianity was, and were, were, were angry with him for that. I have to. I think we, we don’t criticize Dawkins.

I think we’re more concerned with really just saying, look, here are people who initially thought Dawkins was right. Nevertheless took him very, very seriously and read him, and then discovered actually he was not. And that’s such an interesting story to tell because. Um, since Dan and I discovered these people, we’ve come across lots more people who have similar stories to tell, and I, I’m sure there are a lot of people out there who would be willing to tell [00:21:00] those stories and churches on the media because we need these stories to be told.

We need people to say in effect. That, um, Dawkins, um, does not get things right that he in effect misunderstands a lot of things. And it’s really important that we make sure people understand what Christianity is and why it’s so transformative. And I’m an example of someone who discovered that this is why it’s so important for me.

So I think we’ve, uh, got a lot to say and I hope this connection says help people. 12 people, they write very, very well. And they tell very, very good stories, which are true stories. And I just think we need to get those stories out there and I think they’ll be really helpful in the field of apologetics.

Dr. Mark Turman: Yes. I, I think so. I, I want to, I want to get to some of those contributors, uh, in just a moment, but I, I can hear somebody in perhaps in their own mind listening to us asking. Wondering Dr. McGrath, do you know Richard Dawkins? And, and do you know him personally? And if you [00:22:00] do, what uh, how would you characterize your relationship to him?

Dr. Alister McGrath: Well, I dunno him personally. He and I have met personally and talked about things. Um, but I have to say that, um. I did not feel we had, um, a, a meeting of minds or an engagement of ideas. Um, uh, maybe I’m being unfair, but I very often felt when I would ask Richard Dawkins a question, the answer I got was almost like a, a prerecorded answer.

You know, almost like it had been scripted in advance and I didn’t really feel he was. Engaging the questions I was asking. So I, my feeling is that, um, what Dawkins does is raise some very good questions and gives very inadequate answers to them and does not want answers to be heard. And I think one of the things that does disturb me a little bit is that, uh, certainly here with Richard Dawkins, also with Christopher Hitchens, that the chosen weapon for, um, [00:23:00] engaging Christians is not intellectual argument.

It’s ridicule, it’s abuse, it’s in effect, you know, you are evil, you are mad, you are bad. You know, it, it is very much about, in effect, there is this thing called religion. If you are religious, you are stupid, you are evil. And in effect, it’s about a categorization of people in a way that is, um, I think really quite, um, unsettling and deeply disturbing.

So I think it’s very good that the tone of this book is very positive. You know, where that, here, that these people are saying, look, um, Richard Dawkins had this effect on me. Here it is. Um, I’m telling my story and I want you to look not so much at Richard Dawkins, at the arguments he uses and the responses I make in, in fact, 

Dr. Mark Turman: engaging 

Dr. Alister McGrath: him.

Dr. Mark Turman: Should Christians boycott? Is Christian nationalism biblical? Should Christians send their kids to public school? We tackle these questions and [00:24:00] seven more in our latest volume of biblical insight to tough questions. Support the mission of Denison Forum and request our new book [email protected]. Yeah, so, so important.

And I, I don’t think we would’ve necessarily used these terms back in the early two thousands, but, uh, it sounds like that in some ways the new atheist, uh, helped to promote the idea of cancel culture. Um, that if you have a contrasting idea, then you should be shamed or you should be silenced, or. You’re dangerous, uh, you’re a threat that that is essence what, uh, the idea of cancel culture is all about.

Um, I’m, I’m wondering, could you give us some description, uh, a little bit more of the kinds of people that are included in this book through their essays? Uh, tell us a little bit more about. Who the contributors are, what some of their backgrounds are. How did you choose, how did you find them? How did you [00:25:00] choose who you would include?

Dr. Alister McGrath: Well, what we did was we, um, we tried to persuade some people who had been speaking to us, to, um, put their thoughts down. And some of them did have to say, but many just said, look, this is, this is. Slightly dangerous. You mentioned cancel culture that actually some people felt that actually this, this might make their professional lives difficult.

So we respected that, but we kept on looking. Um, Dennis, Alexandra in particular had access to very good networks and we came up with a group of people who in effect. Um, as we conversed with them, as we, we, we got, got a sense of who they were, where they’re coming from, we began to realize each of them was telling a quite distinct story coming from a geographically different place, from an intellectually different place.

Um, and that really, um, if I put like this, it wasn’t as if we put a, a big notice of saying, wanted people to talk about moving from Dawkins. And much more people kind came to us. Possibilities. And we found in effect 12, that [00:26:00] we felt had a wide range of different stories to tell different geographical origins, different issues being raised, different genders, different social contexts.

And what we wanted to do was to have a diverse set of stories, which in effect raise all the right questions. So people would feel on reading this, you know, oh, oh, that, that, that, that’s where I am. Well, that’s where my friend is. I, I could use that story to really help them move on. So it is a very diverse group of people.

And as you’ll have noticed, Dennis Alexander and I both stand back. I. We simply say, here are these people our idle introduction saying, remember what a new atheism was because it has faded the way. And then we’re into the, the, the narratives, the stories, the testimonies. And really what Dennis and I were simply saying is we are standing back that here, here are the stars of the show.

And so we were very happy to make those 12. Presentations, those 12 essays, the, the centerpiece of this book. 

Dr. Mark Turman: So [00:27:00] in Yeah. And they, and they are incredible to read. They’re just, uh, just different, uh, angles that, uh, and you’ll find your, you, like you said, you can find yourself or find someone you know, in one of these stories, oftentimes.

Um, this, this is dangerous for me to ask and you, you may not want to answer, but, uh, of the various essays and stories, uh, which one do you feel like is most transformative? Uh, that may be a polite way of saying, uh, Dr. McGrath, do you have a favorite? Uh, which would be. Probably not the best way for you to answer.

Um, but, um, is there, is there one that you regard as either personally, uh, insightful for you or that held your attention for some reason in a way that, uh, surprised you? Well, I have to say that, um, I read them all 

Dr. Alister McGrath: with delight. I mean, I just thought this is so good, but one did stand up because of the, the background.

This is, um, Sarah Irving Stone. Who’s an [00:28:00] Australian journalist, and, um, she tells the most wonderful story of how, um, in effect, as a journalist, as, as someone who reflected on these things, she began to really have some very significant doubts about Dawkins and how this motivated her to begin to. Think again about everything.

And what I think moved me was that she was extremely good with words and they’re, they’re all, these are all great stories, but she just seemed to have a particular ability to put her finger on the, the nub of the issues, what we’re really talking about here. And as I read that one, I thought that that one will really speak to a lot of people, particularly women who I think will, will feel that, um, there’s a problem with, with Dawkins.

Way of thinking about women, but certainly she speaks very powerfully. But what I, I’ll say again, is I think each of these essays has its own distinct integrity and identity, and actually will, will speak in different ways to different people. So you’ll find something in here you like. 

Dr. Mark Turman: [00:29:00] Yes, absolutely. And I, and I’m grateful for you bringing up, uh, stone break’s work.

I had a, a couple of questions I wanted to. To parse out with you a little bit in that regard. Uh, part of what she talks about is, uh, the new atheist. Uh, what she would, I think, describe as misuse of history. Uh, and one of the, uh, one of the interesting and wonderful dynamics of getting into apologetics and to the story of Christianity and the story of the world as they weave together, uh, is to discover.

All of the good that Christianity, uh, and, and faith have ignited and inspired. Um, but we live in a, a time when, uh, so many things, uh, the foundations of of society, uh, institutions are being questioned and being doubted. And, uh, we’re seeing fresh levels of chaos, uh, on a broad scale that come from that level [00:30:00] of doubt and that level of.

Of, uh, questioning of the very foundations and institutions of society, um, uh, history being one of those. Uh, I wonder if you would have a comment or two about, uh, the importance of understanding the value and pursuit of, uh, seeing history in its correct light. And maybe how you might comment on, um, the misuse by the new atheist of, of histor of history and historical pursuit.

Dr. Alister McGrath: Yes. I think that’s, that’s a very good point. I mean, for me, the new atheist cherry pick history. In other words, they, they tell a story, which in effect deliberately excludes anything good Christianity has done. And. Focus on things that either represent or are misrepresented as Christianity doing bad things.

And I think many of my atheist friends are really very, very angry about this because they says it [00:31:00] gives atheism a bad name if we can’t be truthful and honest doing why we’re here. I think that’s a real concern. And also. Um, really Ms. Reads history at many points. He says, look, um, atheists don’t believe anything, so there’s no reason atheists would ever do acts of violence.

Well, I’m sorry, that’s just not right. If you are an atheist who believes that religion is evil, then you’re going to want to eliminate religion. That’s what happened in the Soviet Union, and Dawkins, I think, is rather naive, rather. Well, how should I put rather, um, rather anxious not to talk about that. But certainly, um, many of his atheist critics, like for example, I mentioned philosopher John Gray would say, look, you’ve got to be honest about this.

Atheism, Hass done some very bad things. Come on, own up, be honest here. And that I think is a, is a very fair point and certainly several of our contributors do explicitly critique this, um, misrepresentation of history. A very good account to this would be, for [00:32:00] example, uh, um, Tom Holland’s book Dominion, which is a very good account of the impact Christianity has had on history, which actually many secular, um, authorities here in England think is very, very.

Uh, respectable. Very, very, um, important needs to be read. So I think Dawkins is seen by a lot of people now as in effect, having to misread or misrepresent history in order to make his case for atheism. That’s not a good place for Dawkins to be, I think. 

Dr. Mark Turman: And, and yes, I, and very important am am I on the right track with you, Dr.

McGrath? That if we cherry pick history, if we misuse, um. The, the pursuit of historical understanding, then we’re stoking, uh, a level of. Doubt that is dangerous to us personally and collectively am Am I on the right track with you? You are on the right track. I think history is 

Dr. Alister McGrath: very, very important. Um, we need to learn from history.

If [00:33:00] we don’t, we simply repeat the mistakes, but we also need to be able to, um. Challenge people who offer us an interpretation of history, which is, for example, very anti-Christian. Um, and say, well, that may be how you see it, but actually there are other ways of looking at this and they’re much more reliable.

And I think what you are doing is simply offering a misreading, a misrepresentation of history. And we need to be able to talk about this. And that’s one of the reasons why we do need Christian pastors who know their history, who can say, look, this simply nonsense, lemme give an example. Hit. Book God is Not Great, where he makes the point that, um, a particular American writer who’s religious in the early 19th century was against smallpox vaccination, and he says that’s just the way religious people are.

They’re against scientific advance. Well, I mean, anyone who knows anything of history will make two points. Number one, Jonathan Edwards probably a. Most famous historical Christian died because he wanted to [00:34:00] prove to his students at Princeton that smallpox, vaccination was safe. In other words, he was absolutely committed to it.

And number two, in the 20th century, George Bernard Shaw, well-known British atheist. Ridicule, smallpox, vaccination as kind of a fantasy nonsense. So, you know, history is complicated and these guys simply tell an incredibly simple narrative that in effect, uh, blanks out everything that’s good about faith and simply allows them to focus on what suits their purposes.

We to challenge that and say there’s a better way of reading history. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Hmm. Yeah. And that, that brings to mind this, this question I wanted to ask you about, which is. There is this, uh, what I would call myth, that there is enmity between science and faith. Uh, has, uh, has that idea that science and faith are incompatible.

That they are in conflict with each other, uh, that they cannot, uh, ever be reconciled. They’re com they’re one must overcome the [00:35:00] other. Has that always been with us or is that something that, uh, the new atheist, uh, revived in some way? Because when you start reading just world history as well as Christian history, you’ll find that many of the best scientists were also people of very deep faith.

Can you give us some context and understanding to how we’ve gotten to this place where even something like. New atheist and new atheist, new atheism can rise as it did so rapidly following nine 11 and, and over the last 10 to 20 years. 

Dr. Alister McGrath: Well, I, a new atheism depends on the idea that science and religion are incompatible because then they’re able to say, look, two science, it’s much better.

But what. I think any historian would say is this idea of a conflict in science and religion is really a 19th century invention. Um, it actually originated in the United States, um, with, uh, a, a number of writers who wrote [00:36:00] very aggressive books like the Warfare of Science with Christianity and things like that.

And that kind of way created an impression. And it’s one that the new atheism kind of way repeats again and again and again. But as a historian, I do not see this tension there before the, uh, 19th century. And you’ve made the point very clearly. If you read earlier, scientists, like for example, Kepler. You know, Kepler basically, um, was very, very clear.

His Christian faith informed his astronomy. His understanding of how God created the world and him meant that in some way we were able to use our minds and mathematical abilities to understand how the so system worked. And he was absolutely clear. He was thinking God’s thoughts after him. He was very, very clear.

His faith was reinforced by this, and we find this again and again and again that, um, early scientific research was governed by this basic principle. We are learning to. Appreciate the [00:37:00] richness, the complexity of nature, and in doing so, we learn more about God. I think it’s an extremely important point.

Early science was saying, the more we know about the creation, the better. We appreciate the wisdom of God. That’s a very important theme, um, for many people in the early modern period. Their religious faith was a motivation to do science because they were studying God’s creation and thus enhancing their appreciation of who God was and what God had done.

Now, I think we need to, in effect, tell that story and make sure it doesn’t get drowned out by new atheist writers who do not want that story to be heard. 

Dr. Mark Turman: And, and it’s really quite astounding, uh, uh, just working my way through the very first essay, which is the story of, uh, uh, of a, a man that was a young Christian when he started to encounter Dawkins and how that was, uh, initially, uh, threatening [00:38:00] or troubling to him, but became the trigger, uh, for him to do further investigation, even to the point of learning that even the scientific method.

Uh, the work of of Christians. Seeking to understand the world as a way of knowing God deeper. Uh, am I saying it right? Am I summarizing him well? 

Dr. Alister McGrath: Yes, you are. This is Shart a wonderful piece of testimony, and again, if, if there’s anyone listening to this who wants to think about relation of science and faith, that opening essay will be a very good starting point.

It’s historically reliable, and he explains very clearly how his own journey of faith proceeded and the questions. He is a scientist kind of way, uh, engaged along the way. So I think that that’s a very important point to make. There are other scientists, of course, in the volume, but that’s the opening essay and it’s very well done.

Dr. Mark Turman: So I wanna, uh, wanna pivot for just a moment you, in, in contrast to the new atheist, Dawkins and others you’ve mentioned, [00:39:00] uh, other atheists such as John Gray, um, uh, give us the kind of. This category of new atheists versus others who, uh, uh, unashamedly describe themselves as atheists, but. Um, would have, have had some of their own real problems with the way that Dawkins and Hitchens and others have approached some of these topics.

Uh, give us a little bit of an understanding about, uh, I, I don’t know if we would call it traditional atheism, um, if there’s a term for them, uh, but can you kind of give us a, an insight and an understanding of who they are and what their approach is compared to the new atheists? 

Dr. Alister McGrath: Well let, let’s call ’em the old atheist.

That, that, that’ll give us a kind of way of, of thinking about them. Uh, I mentioned the philosopher John Gray. And John Gray wrote a very interesting book called Seven Kinds of Atheism. Seven Types of Atheism. And in it he’s really just talking about, um, what he [00:40:00] thinks atheism is like as an atheist is.

Very much in his gun sites. I think there are two things I would point out. Number one, um, older atheist writers would say something like this. There are some intellectual difficulties with arguments for existence of God. Let me tell you what they are. In other words, it’s. It’s engaging ideas. Dawkins and Hitchens say religious people are idiots, they’re dangerous, they’re damaged, they’re deluded.

Um, in other words, they’re, they’re attacking people. It’s very, very different. I think that that’s one of the most disturbing features about this. I mean, for example, think of Sam Harris’s op-ed piece in the New York Times, saying in effect that, uh, uh, Francis Collins shouldn’t be involved in. Government service because he was a Christian.

You know, he, he believes these ridiculous Christian things, therefore he should not be involved in, um, national Institute of Healthcare. And of course, people reacted against that. Very [00:41:00] aggressive, said, looks, this guy’s good. Um, we need him there. And, and they were very angry, Sam Harris. So that’s one thing to single mark.

The, the focus on religious people, individuals rather. The second thing that’s really worrying is that in effect, the new atheism, um, in effect, um. Sloganizing. It’s all about in effect slogans that are going to grab newspaper headlines, but in effect, don’t engage Christianity. And for me, I think the most disturbing thing is that in effect, what Dawkins and Hitchens present as Christianity would not be recognized as such by ordinary Christians.

And the problem is there are a lot of people outside the church who say, well, this must be what Christianity is, because Dawkins and Hitchins are saying it’s like this. And so they are gaining their understanding of Christianity from Dawkins and Hitchen. That’s not good news. So that’s why it’s so important that, um, any Christ involved in the media takes the [00:42:00] time and trouble to make sure people understand what Christianity really is.

The other thing we is really disturbing about new atheism is, um, it’s, it’s evidential asymmetry. In other words, uh, the new atheist writers in effect will Chris. Will not apply the same critiques to their own views. And that’s an extremely important point. If you, if d Dawkin says to me, prove you are right about God, uh, I would say back, well, you, I’ll try and do that.

Can you prove that you are right about your atheism? He would say, well, no, I can’t, I, you can’t prove a negative. But I’m sorry. What he is saying in effect is you’ve gotta prove what you believe. I don’t need to prove what I believe I’m immune from. In other words, I stand above assessment and criticism and accountability.

So there’s a real problem there, I think. And those are some of the reasons why I think, um, many atheists will breathe a sigh of relief that a new atheism is so obviously on its way out. But I want to emphasize that this does not give [00:43:00] Christians a cause for rejoicing. There there’ll be new challenges to face.

But, uh, certainly I think we can begin to build on, uh, what happens in new atheism and thinking about how we, um, preach, how we teach our faith, and also about how we engage with the public domain. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, so helpful. Um. As you alluded to earlier in our conversation, uh, some indications that, uh, to be open about your faith in, in various, uh, en environments, particularly the scientific academy, that type of thing.

Some people have been cautious, um, to say, well, if I’m open about my faith, then. Um, that could be damaging to me professionally. Do you think that that is changing? Do you think that there is a fresh openness within the scientific community, within the academy, um, that being people of devout faith? Not necessarily.

I mean, hopefully Christian faith, but not [00:44:00] necessarily faith, uh, Christian faith, it could be, uh, Islam or other faith. Do you sense that that is turning to where. Uh, the general academic and scientific community is now more, uh, turning away from these new atheists toward a respectability about faith and, uh, an o and that scientists and, and other professionals can be more open about their faith.

Is that changing? 

Dr. Alister McGrath: I think there’s still a cloud over things by people like that, that, that the kind of aggressiveness of the new atheism does continue to hover over the scientific landscape because many of these, um, people were, were, were scientists and hence kind way. Seen as having some sort of authority within the scientific community.

Now things are getting better. I think five years ago Marilyn Robinson wrote that faith had virtually been shamed out of the public square. I think we’re coming back in now, but I think, you know, we just have to [00:45:00] say, um. We’ve got to work very hard to build relationships with people to, in effect talk about our faith in a way that’s responsible and, um, gracious and winsome.

But it can be done. And I think that, um, there is a sense in which, and people are now reacting against new atheism and what Dennis, Alexandra and I. Very much hope will be the case. Is that in effect, um, these essays, which are very well written, very cautious, very um, modest in many ways actually may help model the kind of way we might talk about faith and engage with our culture.

Because I think there are real possibilities here and I think that we are coming out the woods, so to speak, but still quite a long way to go, but right, people are time. We may be in a better place. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Well, it’s, it’s, uh, a great expression that I think of what Tim Keller talked about when he talked about winsome faith, um, uh, [00:46:00] intellectually robust, um, but as you said, joyful and, and, um.

The pursuit of truth, the pursuit of, of, of truth, not just simply the winning of an argument or, uh, the injury of a particular person. Um, Dr. McGrath, how do you see this, uh, operating today within the academy, within institutions of higher education? Are the, are, are the new atheists still holding court primarily there or?

Are they receiving in the upper echelons of education globally? Do they get preference? Um, uh, we have a, a colleague, uh, here in the United States who likes to say that ideas have consequences and bad ideas have victims. That’s why, uh, this book and this conversation is important to engage, um, uh, people like Dawkins and others.

Is there, uh, a continuing presence, even [00:47:00] domination of, of thinking, uh, like the new atheists still in the upper echelons of the academy? 

Dr. Alister McGrath: I think that is definitely receding, certainly in the humanities because, um, people like Richard Dawkins, um, are very, very dismissive of the humanities that, uh, that hasn’t helped ’em.

I think they, they, they have been unwise, I think, in that respect. I think even amongst the scientific community there, there’s a, there’s a growing feeling that these guys have overstated that in effect, um. Fail to do justice to the complexity of issues and that there is room for more to be said. So I think it’s very important that, um, people who read this book or people who listen to your podcast will in effect say, maybe I could help to move things ahead by, um, doing certain things.

If, if that happens, that would be wonderful. I think that broadly speaking, if I, this, there’s a new generation of [00:48:00] academics rising up. They think about things in a different way, and that means that church leaders, people like us, need to in effect, think about how we help them to see that Christianity is intellectually respectable, but that is also life transforming, and that’s very, very important.

And model a graciousness, which is in effect about what Christianity does to people. And again, that’s one. Friends who I know were turned off atheism. Mm. Because they said Richard Dalman is so aggressive. He’s so nasty. Uh, I, I don’t want to be like that. I think that that, that, that’s good to know. I think.

But that could be said about Christians as well. If, if we, if people say that guy’s really aggressive and nasty, don’t to be like that, they might well say, and therefore Christianity is not. Not for me. So we don’t think about these things, but I think, um, there are good signs here and really we’re looking to a rising generation of people who are in effect coming up through the ranks who will [00:49:00] be tomorrow’s standard bearers.

And I think there’s a lot they can do. And obviously we want to do all we can to encourage and enable them. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yes. And that’s been, you know, over I would say the last 10 to 15 years. One of the things that’s most encouraged me, and I just would want to add this to our conversation, is. I remember when one of my own church members, I was pastoring a church.

He gave me the work of Francis Collins first, uh, piece of work from Francis Collins that I had ever encountered. And it was difficult for me to understand since I’m not a scientist, uh, in some ways. But it was also incredibly. Affirming and empowering. Uh, as in, in, in this work, he not only described his intellectual pursuits, but also his personal journey of faith and wove these two things together, and you start meeting people like that.

You start meeting people like yourself. Uh, John Lennox, uh, a scientists here. In the United States named Jim Tour, and, and all of a sudden you’re like, uh, you, you [00:50:00] find that Christianity can very much hold its own in the discussion of ideas and in, um, uh, the category of respectability. Uh, I’m wondering, wanted to get your, your thought or comment on this.

Um, uh, I wonder to the extent that the new atheists have been the promoters of what would be called scientism, the religion of science. Do you think that the global experience of the pandemic has brought doubt to those who have started to subscribe to Science is ultimately the only way we find truth? 

Dr. Alister McGrath: I think that, um, the pandemic has, I think, helped science in one way because clearly it, it was saying, look, we, we need.

Professional help to be able to deal with this virus, which is causing such chaos. I think also there was a, a, an anxiety, a growing anxiety that in effect, [00:51:00] uh, there are bigger issues than science here, there’s, there are a whole series of questions about human wellbeing, about human liberties and so on, and certainly there were people who were a bit worried that maybe science was.

Driving us in some directions that were not really helpful for us. So I think that if I’m put like this, that that, um, the, the COVID Pandemic has brought home to us that, um, science is important, but it has its place and there’s more needs to be said. And of course, that there’s. Always this anxiety, which is, is isn’t really discussed very much that maybe the COVID pandemic itself actually might have been the, the result of some, some accidental leak from some of the board.

I, I very much hope that’s wrong, but it’s there in the background. So I, I think there are, there are questions there. I think those who would say. Sciences are religion. I, I think really, um, science may help you in some ways, but when it comes to really big questions like, how do I live my life? [00:52:00] Well, what’s the point of life?

How can I flourish as a human being? Science may help you a bit and that’s great, but actually you need a lot more than that and that’s why, you know, we need to have a resilient faith. Which is able to help us to cope with difficult times, give us a vision of the difference we can make, and give us a sense of hope that we can kind of get through this and, and, and, and live again.

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, and that’s one of the things that comes through this book strongly as, uh, as we might talk about, uh, common threads through, uh, these 12 essays, hope. Joy and hope as, as well as depth, are at least three of the consistent themes throughout every one of these essays. Uh, as I’ve experienced them, uh, it, and it has been interesting to watch.

I. Uh, the, what might be the crest of the new atheist movement over the last two decades? I’m just wondering, uh, in, we, we now live in a world where the term identity is, [00:53:00] um, front and center and, uh, discussed at various levels. Um, and the idea that. We can make up our own identity, um, and the un the urgent need that the church needs to articulate what a Christ formed identity might look like.

I just wonder how do you think the new atheist might deal with the current questions of identity that we see being, uh, so hotly debated in our culture? 

Dr. Alister McGrath: I think the new atheism is, is very modernist in the sense of going back to the, the enlightenment. Uh, and they would take what I think would now be seen as a very traditional view on these questions.

Um, I, I think Dawkin is particular, is very critical of postmodernism and he is very critical of anything that comes after that. And that’s, that’s one of the reasons why a lot of young people just say this is. I from a Christian perspective, identity [00:54:00] does matter. In Christ that we have this God-given identity, which in effect gives us dignity, meaning, and significance, and whatever other subsidiary identity we may, you know, choose.

This is what really matters, and I think one of the things that church leaders need to do is help. Help people to understand the difference that this makes, why it’s so important, and how it in effect gives a sense of purpose, significance, and also almost sense of calling to be something in this world.

So I think you are right. It’s a very important category and that’s why I think Christians really need to say, you know, my identity is in Christ and this really gives me the specialness, the sense of importance and significance, which will keep me going through life. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. Very, very important topic for us to, to delve into deeper.

So many things I’d like to talk to you about in this book, morality, uh, sense of right and wrong, other [00:55:00] things. Um, but I, I wonder as we get ready to close here, uh, again, just the unique, wonderful and winsome approach of this book. Um, there’s also, I sense in this Dr. McGrath a call, uh, to Christians. Um, one of the things we are, or the thing that we’re passionate about here at the Denon Forum is helping people to be deeply, deeply grounded in Christ, in every way, at every level, to love God with all of their heart, soul, mind, and strength, and their neighbor as their self.

Um, uh, but talk a minute, if you would, about the importance and the power of both intellectual pursuit and personal story. We’ve alluded to it already, um, but how is this book a call for Christians like these who wrote the essays, um, to, to take their faith not only for their own personal, um, benefit. But as an [00:56:00] opportunity of witness, uh, because that’s so much what this book is, it is a powerful expression of Christian witness, uh, on a very deep level.

Can you talk to that a little bit? Yes. Again, I think that’s a, a very, very good 

Dr. Alister McGrath: question. In this book, there are 12 essays in which people talk about how they grew in their faith or medics came to faith. What I wonder is, um, you could say to people who are wondering what they could be doing. What story would you tell?

Mm. What if you were to tell the story of your own faith journey, what would it look like? How might it help somebody outside the faith community discover what Christianity is all about? C. S Lewis is very, very clear. We need to be able to tell a better story, you know, to to show that there’s something different than distinct about Christianity, and very often telling our own story of discovering faith.

Flourishing in faith is in effect a way which people begin to realize what [00:57:00] the Christian faith is all about. So I think the question I’d leave you with is this. If anybody listening to this is thinking about this, what story would you tell about yourself that would help your family, your friends, people beyond the churches say, I suddenly understand what Christianity is all about.

And why it makes such a difference. That’d be a wonderful thing to do. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Oh, that’s a, yeah, a great, great admonition. And we don’t all have the same questions, um, but we all are building a story. I. Uh, that becomes influential and impactful, that becomes that salt and light that Jesus ask us. The last, the last word I want to just share with our audience comes out of the essay by, uh, Johan Erasmus, uh, at the very end of his essay, uh, talking about, uh, the, the rise of atheism, new atheism.

He says, you know, the problem is not atheism. It’s apathy. Uh, that’s our biggest threat. And, uh, if we could leave our audience with any [00:58:00] admonition today, it would be, uh, as, as Lewis said, the one thing that Christianity cannot be is moderately important. It, uh, it either means everything or it means nothing at all.

And, um, we, we need to understand that on a daily basis. Dr. McGrath, thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. Thank you for making time for this. Thank you even more, uh, for this book and for, uh, the creative idea of presenting it as you have. And we would encourage all of our listeners to get the book.

You can get it at all major, uh, book outlets. And, uh, a final word that you’d like to share, Dr. McGrath before we go. It’s been wonderful talking 

Dr. Alister McGrath: with you like this, but my final word is simply, please be encouraged. Read this book and think this is good news, and maybe I 

Dr. Mark Turman: could do 

Dr. Alister McGrath: the same. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Amen. Thank you, uh, to our audience for listening to us today.

If our [00:59:00] podcast has been helpful to you, please rate and review us on your podcast platform. Please share this with family and friends so that they can be encouraged as well. And Dr. McGrath, we hope to have another conversation with you in the near future. Thank you for your time on.