Why should Christians regularly go to church?

Mark Turman: [00:00:03] Welcome to Faith and Clarity. I'm Mark Turman, your host. We're glad that you're with us. We're going to talk about something that every Christian hopefully has on their mind and heart on a regular basis. We're going to talk about going to church, uh, which is our common way of talking about going to worship. And, uh, you may have heard all kinds of reports about how faith, and particularly Christian faith, has diminished in our country, church attendance has gone down, and there's a lot being written and a lot being studied around that topic. Some encouraging news coming out in some research as well that, uh, particularly the younger generation, what we call Gen Z, uh, is actually showing a renewed interest in being involved in faith communities and in the experience of corporate worship. And so we're going to talk about that, some of the issues around that today and how that will serve to equip us and strengthen us to be the salt and light that Jesus wants us to be, but even more importantly, it will help us to bring him the worship that he so rightly deserves. And so, uh, talking with me today, two of my friends, when I'm not out speaking in a church somewhere, I attend First McKinney Church, and I've got two of the leaders here, Pastor Sam Holm. Uh, he and I share East Texas roots. He grew up at in a therapeutic wilderness camp, not because he needed therapy, I don't think, but because, uh, his parents were helping to lead a ministry along with five brothers. He and I come from very big families. Uh, after college, he worked at Pine Cove Camp, which is a great shout out, uh, one of the great Christian camps across the country, uh, that is near our hometown of Tyler in East Texas. Uh, then God called him to serve the local church, and he became pastor of First McKinney in 2017. He and his wife Rebecca have two girls, and I love the way Sam talks about this at church. He says, I just want to help people live and love like Jesus, which is a really good way of what every Christian needs to be focused on. His ministry partner is Justin Hornsby. Justin has been a worship pastor since he was 19 years old and has been serving alongside Sam at First Church in McKinney. He leads worship, oversees various ministry teams, uh, and also preaches, as he did the Sunday before, uh, we recorded this podcast. So he's kind of in the glow of having just finished a sermon. Uh, he serves in worship ministry along with his wife, Holly, and they have three kids. And, uh, I love what Justin, uh, often says, which is music is great, but Jesus is greater. And so we're going to get into some of those topics and hopefully be helpful to you as you think about your engagement in the experience, particularly of corporate worship, all right? Uh, so guys, I just wanted to say thanks for being here. Would you like to say good morning?

Sam Holm: [02:53] Good morning.

Justin Hornsby: [02:55] Yeah, good morning. Thank you, Mark.

Mark Turman: [02:57] Yeah, I always love that pause that comes at the beginning of the podcast. Nobody knows who's supposed to speak first. All right? So, uh, let's talk a little bit about, that's right. So let's talk a little bit about worship and how you guys walk up to it. Uh, so much, uh, written about whether or not people go to church regularly. The number for the last number of years has floated around, you know, that you could be considered a really devoted believer if you show up for corporate worship at a faith community about once, maybe 13 times a year, once a month, 12 times a year. That's considered, uh, pretty aggressive church worship. Um, why do you think more Christians aren't consistent when it comes to participating in corporate worship together? Sam, do you have a thought on that?

Sam Holm: [03:46] Yeah, I you know, life is full and unfortunately, the enemy wants to steal, kill and destroy and one of those things he wants to pull away from us is the reminder that we need weekly of who Jesus is and what he has done for us and our relationship with the Lord. You know, uh, it's it's I don't think surprising that he distracts us from what would attract us to the Lord. So, uh, yeah, he's out to get it.

Mark Turman: [04:13] Yeah. Justin, what are your thoughts?

Justin Hornsby: [04:15] Yeah, I agree. maybe a little different take. I think in part, it's because maybe some of those people when they go to church, uh, they realize I don't really want to be here every week, uh, because what's being presented, uh, from the stage is really not that good or maybe not that different from the world or, uh, yeah, if if there's not a compelling reason to come back every single week, why would I want to come back? So maybe sometimes we aren't doing the best job of teaching people why they should be in church every single Sunday.

Mark Turman: [04:53] Yeah. Yeah, and it's, you know, I love the Sam, you mentioned the word reminder. Um, you know, the the Bible tells us so many things that we need to be reminded of, right? And one of the things that we need God to do is to redeem our memory because we have a tendency to remember the worst things and to forget the best things. Um, and I think about that that parable of Jesus about the different soils and, uh, probably the number one temptation of all Americans is distraction. Um, we we get distracted by so many other things. Um, and we we lose sight of the priority. We forget the priority that this ought to have as the rhythm of our life. Um, you guys, uh, do your sermon and and worship service planning so well. You work together so well, uh, each week, uh, and people are blessed by that. Uh, what would you say to believers as a way of guarding against, uh, going to church, corporate worship, uh, about that being really in their hearts and minds consistently focused on God rather than that kind of simple way we say, well, I didn't get much out of that. Uh, how do we get ourselves into that place where we're we're thinking about what we can come and give, uh, of ourselves rather than what we're going to get out of that experience? How do we know if we've slipped into that trap? How do we know, um, some ways maybe to get out of it? Y'all have a thought on that? Justin, what do you think?

Justin Hornsby: [06:20] Yeah, I think what you're saying is, uh, it's just as important what we bring, uh, to worship, what we contribute than what we receive. And so we know this in scripture, every single one of us has at least one spiritual gift and the purpose of those spiritual gifts are to be used in the body of Christ to encourage, equip one another. So I think we probably haven't maybe taught that enough. People haven't understood that that when you come to church, you have something you're contributing. You're not just here being a a spectator. Uh, you're bringing your gifts to encourage and and build up, uh, the body. Um, we have a lot of people, I think in churches who just, uh, maybe just sit and just listen instead of, uh, contributing. And, um, yeah, I don't know.

Sam Holm: [07:08] Yeah, I completely agree. You know, one of the things that our executive pastor, Chris will say in our church often is that, uh, the church in the West, I think is bored by what they've been told their role is in the kingdom of God. Like it's to come for an hour, uh, to maybe listen to someone teach for an hour or, uh, drop a little money in a plate. Maybe if you're an ultra Christian, you you're serving for an hour. Uh, but God has called us to so much more than that, right? Uh, that we are part of the greatest mission the world has ever known, all Christians, right? And the work of the pastor is actually to equip the saints for the work of ministry, not necessarily to do all of that ministry, right? So we we are we are the ones that are equipping them to be on the front line of what God is calling them to do. And so on some level, church is a launching pad for all that God wants to do in and through their lives with the gifts that Justin is talking about.

Justin Hornsby: [08:05] And and you know, I think one of the things is, uh, real quick, if I can, Mark, just, um, you know, we go see a movie, we go see like a, uh, watch a show on TV, the story's always different, the story's always changing. Well, the gospel doesn't change. So it's the same story every single week. So if if we don't, uh, as believers realize that we need to constantly hear that story because we forget it, then it can seem like, well, I go to church and they're just telling me the same things every Sunday. Yes, because you need to hear every single Sunday that you are a sinner desperately in need of God's grace. And, um, and so I think, uh, yeah, we just have to always be thinking of how do we keep telling this same story, but do it in a in a fresh way and in a way that people never grow tired of hearing of what God's done for them through Jesus.

Mark Turman: [08:55] Yeah, and love seeing how that is is so visible in y'all's work and and also always lands so consistently at the place of joy. Um, that, you know, we desperately need grace and mercy and that God is so eager to give it. Uh, I remember reading, uh, not too many years ago, the pastor and author Paul David Tripp, he said, what most people walk away from church on Sunday thinking is, well, God is good, I'm not, I need to try harder. And, uh, there's some element of truth in that, but it's doesn't go nearly far enough about what Jesus is trying to say to us, uh, in this experience. And obviously, a lot of what we're talking about here at the beginning is about spiritual maturity, it's about spiritual understanding. Uh, it's about getting past kind of the the mechanisms of of religion, which are necessary in many ways, and getting to that idea of relationship. Um, it just astounds me that when when Jesus was asked, uh, how people should pray, he said, start this way, our Father. And it starts very personal, very relational, very intimate, uh, in some ways. Um, and that that personal relationship is really the thing that ought to be the motivating factor. Um, but as it comes to corporate worship, I I over the years, I've just been struck at all of the time, energy, and effort that people like us put into putting together a corporate gathering, and yet the the Bible, particularly the New Testament, says very little about, uh, what we're supposed to do when we get together. Um, you know, my understanding of the scripture is there's only one truly specific worship book, and that's the book of Leviticus, the one that nobody can really get through very well. Uh, but that's the worship manual, at least for the Old Testament nation of Israel. Um, but I remember, uh, reading another source where, uh, a believer, a leader in church took a lost person with him and they went and visited a dozen churches or so. And about the eighth church, the the non-Christian said, is this really what Jesus told y'all to do? Um, so that just kind of leads me to this idea. Sam, I would love for you to, do you have a definition of worship, particularly corporate worship that helps you think about how to plan and approach with Justin? How do you put these experiences together? Is there a definition or a framework that guides you?

Sam Holm: [11:29] Uh, so my definition for worship specifically is centering our mind's attention and heart's affection on God, whereby we then declare his worth in response to who he is. Uh, I think corporate worship, I don't know that I've even attempted to specifically define corporate worship. I may even kick that back to Justin and see if you have a specific definition for corporate worship. Do you have a thought there, Justin?

Justin Hornsby: [11:57] Well, you know, worship, I would just say briefly is our response to who God is and what he's done. And so corporately, that's just what we're doing when we gather together as the body of Christ. Uh, we can all just, uh, worship on our own at home, but God exists in the context of relationship. He created us, uh, to be in relationships with others. Something powerful when we gather together. So just together responding to who God is, what he's done.

Sam Holm: [12:21] Yeah. But it's all over the Bible. To your point, there's not like a, here's what you do in the New Testament church, but we see pieces of that. I'm actually, I'm personally in my devotional time reading through Exodus right now and he's defined so much of what's going to go on in the Tabernacle. In fact, I had forgotten how much he talked about what the the high priest is supposed to wear. He has like a couple of chapters on his clothes and I'm like, wow, I mean, he gets pretty detailed on all of that stuff. Uh, but we do see in the New Testament that they were, uh, all involved, engaging, using their gifts, right? Uh, they were teaching one another through Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Uh, we we see that, yeah, they were preaching the word of God, uh, in their worship services. So the Bible does tell us a lot of what's going on. And then obviously when they're coming together, they pray a lot in the book of Acts. They pray a lot. And I'm learning, Justin knows this a lot about prayer personally and corporately, not just, uh, the interaction or or, uh, transaction that happens when we pray, but the relationship that we get to exercise even together corporately in prayer.

Mark Turman: [13:29] Yeah.

Justin Hornsby: [13:30] Justin, you have something you want to add? Not, yeah, not not to get too deeply like, uh, theological, but, uh, just thinking about what we do in worship. So historically, uh, you know, people think different about this. So, uh, let's say John Calvin, Martin Luther, two of the the the best reformers, like these guys agreed on most things, I think. Uh, John Calvin thought you should only do what the Bible prescribes. That's called the regulative principle. So he only sang the Psalms because those that was the song book of the Bible. In worship, they never sang anything else. If it's not a song, we don't sing it. Um, everything, only what the Bible clearly prescribes. Martin Luther, his was, he adopted the normative principle, which means if the Bible doesn't forbid it, then we can do it as long as it's edifying for the church. So, you know, Martin Luther wrote hymns. He wrote A Mighty Fortress is our God. So that's that's how I've always approached worship is, uh, do what scripture clearly commands, don't do what it forbids, and for everything else, use biblical, godly wisdom. Um, so we don't just sing the Psalms because there's no verse that says you can only sing the Psalms. In fact, Paul says Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. It seems like a variety. Uh, but we're not going to do things in the service that are not edifying and don't build up the body. Um, singing is something we can all do together. Every person can sing at the same time together. We cannot all corporately draw a picture together. Now, we can, like I can draw a picture next to you, Mark, but it's not going to be like the same picture and we're not all going to be able to see your picture, but singing is something we can all do together and glorify and magnify God. Um, so, yeah, as long as it's all building up the entire body, not just a few of us, then we can do that in worship.

Mark Turman: [15:19] And it's it's kind of amazing really when you think about it. Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead, Sam. Go ahead.

Sam Holm: [15:23] I'll just say I'll add, I I have served in ministry for years. You mentioned, uh, camp was part of my past and I was serving at a church before I was here and then the church brought Justin and Holly to our church and for me, like my own heart was drawn into worship on a level that I had not experienced before. And part of that is because of what Justin was mentioning earlier, like, uh, articulating the gospel in such a way that people want to respond through singing and engaging in worship. Uh, it it's a, uh, I I think it's one thing to tell people to sing. It's another thing to remind them of why we're doing it and and their hearts are are invited into this. Yeah, hey, don't just say these lyrics. Jesus has given his life for you, right? That he loves you so much. He's laid down everything. You don't have to earn his favor. You get to respond because of his favor, right? And that that that engages a heart, I think on a level, uh, the room wants to respond in a different way.

Mark Turman: [16:30] Yeah, it's just, you know, it's just the more I think about this and, you know, like I said, all the effort we time and time we put into this, it's really kind of, uh, amazing when you think about it, uh, how much trust God gives us, uh, when it comes to having these experiences and getting to have the privilege that you and I enjoyed, which is putting them together and facilitating them for the body of Christ. It's really kind of amazing that God gives us, uh, the kind of freedom. Uh, I I would lean Justin more toward the Martin Luther side of that. Uh, if the Bible doesn't forbid it, then we probably have a lot of latitude. And you see that. You see that in the the glimpses and the photographs of the church gathering in the New Testament, uh, in all kinds of ways. Um, you know, I I consistently kind of go back in this conversation to Jesus's conversation in John 4 with the woman at the well. Uh, we commonly think about that and teach that as an evangelistic, uh, uh, lesson, but their conversation is about worship. It's about where you worship and how you worship and whether it's right to do it here or do we all have to go to Jerusalem? And it's the one time Jesus explicitly says that the Father is seeking worshipers who worship him in spirit and truth, which I've always taken to be, it has to engage your heart, it has to engage your whole person, and it has to be within the framework of what the Bible teaches. Uh, we don't, you know, in in channeling my John Calvin, right? Uh, we don't just do whatever we want. We do need to stay within the the confines of scripture, uh, because there are lots of forms of worship that are not legitimate and are not pleasing to God. And we need to be careful around that. Justin?

Justin Hornsby: [18:13] Yeah, and and about that, uh, it matters what we do in worship because, uh, we're putting words when we're singing, we're putting words in people's mouths. Uh, so everything, uh, we do, I I've often thought about, what if, what if someone's theology, their view of God, everything they know about God was just shaped by the songs that we sing? Well, it better be that we're singing all of of God's word and not just only focusing on his on his holiness, only focusing on his grace, only, uh, focusing on his blessing. It better be that we're, uh, singing all of it. Uh, and we're responsible every week through our preaching, everything we do, we're we're teaching our people. Our people, we want them to be reading their Bible and hopefully they are. Uh, they're not studying theology. They're not, uh, going deep most of them, uh, in commentaries and so it's our job to explain what the scriptures mean, uh, explain what we're singing, why we're singing it. And, uh, we better do it truthfully, as you're saying, uh, in spirit and in truth. It better be straight from God's word and not our opinion or, um, you know, just what we think sounds best on that day.

Mark Turman: [19:26] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Sam, how did you and Justin become a team? How long have you all been doing this together? How did that happen?

Sam Holm: [19:33] Yes, so we've been doing it together over 10 years now, which is such a blessing for me. But I I was the teaching pastor at a church. Actually, the church we serve in now, Justin and I both love the pastor we served under at this previous church. He used to pastor this church and you used to serve alongside of him, uh, in McKinney. And yeah, so we were, uh, brought in to serve at that church. I was a teaching pastor. Justin was a worship pastor, one of several worship pastors. And, uh, just genuinely, uh, was blessed deeply as he would lead my heart to worship each week. And then I got invited in, the the worship team was doing a life group off campus because of what the the group structure is like in many Baptist churches, the the Sunday morning groups were like, hey, if that's important, how do we do that? And so I raised my hand and said, hey, can I be in that group also with the worship team? And they let me and my wife and family come and then we got to know, uh, Justin and Holly on a deep level and watch what I think is so important. We haven't really talked about this too, but that it's not something we're just doing on the stage, right? Uh, that that there is a genuine growing relationship with Christ that's happening in the life of the believer because it's caught, I think on some level even maybe more than taught in in a room where you're worshiping. So we got to know and see and, uh, watch up close and personal their relationship with Jesus. So when I was, uh, invited to take the role as lead pastor here, uh, I was very excited to to bring Justin and Holly to serve with me. Um, and yeah, they were willing to do that. And now I've been here for nine years. They've been here about eight and a half, I guess, something like that, which is getting close, which is awesome. And, uh, love getting to serve next to someone I respect and consider a close friend. So.

Mark Turman: [21:25] Yeah. Yeah, well, it's a it's a a great thing to watch and a great thing to be blessed by and to get to participate in. Uh, Justin, I was wondering, and Sam, I'll get your thoughts on this as well in a moment, but Justin, who or what, uh, has helped you most as a leader of corporate worship? What's what's been really useful? Who's been, who's been a model for you, if there is one? What's what's helped you the most when it comes to leading a group of people in corporate worship?

Justin Hornsby: [21:53] Yeah, uh, just real quick to go back. So yeah, Sam, uh, and I served together at, um, a different church. We loved, uh, Jeff Warren was our pastor there, Dr. Jeff Warren, amazing pastor. You can look him up. Um, so we, uh, when Sam called me and said, I need a worship pastor at our church in McKinney. Sam and I worked, we met every week and, um, he was one of my great, you know, best friends. And so when he called me and said, come be the, will you come be the worship pastor here? My first thought was, man, I can't work for Sam because he's he's my friend. I can't work for that guy. It's going to blow my friendship up. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Um, and, uh, we were we were kind of in some, he wasn't my boss at the previous church. So it was kind of like, can I have him be my boss now? I don't know about this. Uh, but the Lord just absolutely made that clear that this is where he wanted our family to be. And, uh, so grateful. And one of the best things about Sam is that, uh, I think he understands that God, uh, equips other leaders, other pastors to, uh, with their gifting and to serve. And so he, I've had pastors in the past who would try to like micromanage, even, not saying this is terrible, but I've had pastors that would pick out all the songs. They'd be like, okay, here's the songs you're singing this week, Justin. Or I would go in and say, um, hey, here's the worship what we're planning to do. And then one pastor, he'd be like, not that one. Can't do that one. We're not doing hate that song. Uh, Sam has never once, uh, done that to me. And every now and then he'll send, he'll say, uh, you know, here's maybe a song that I've heard that could be good, but he'll usually always say, but don't feel pressure that you, uh, have to do it. So he trusts, uh, his staff to, um, use their gifts that that God has given us, which I love, uh, so much. And, um, now, as far as, so Sam obviously has been a huge influence on my life, our our previous pastor. Uh, about, I don't know, 15 years ago, I read Bob Kauflin's book, which is called Worship Matters, best book on worship I've ever read. I give it to anyone. Um, that, uh, I I've given it to several people that I've, uh, helped mentor, younger worship leaders. I'm reading it with a young guy right now who's just like 18. We're reading that book, uh, together. And, uh, yeah, so I I think, um, uh, Charles Spurgeon, love, I got him on my little cup right here. Uh, just so so such a gift. I I was reading in Psalm 33 yesterday, something Spurgeon said when he's talking about sing a, uh, Psalm 33 is sing a new song to the Lord. I've never heard this before. Spurgeon says, don't be bringing old worn out praise to God. And that spoke to me like, hey, we sometimes if this is what happens, we're talking about people gathering to worship and not not gathering enough and, uh, only coming once a month. What you're living on old worn out praise if you're doing that. You're living on yesterday or two weeks ago's praise. Uh, we need to be seeking Jesus every day, a new mercies, new songs. Um, yeah, just love that. So Charles Spurgeon, Bob Kauflin.

Mark Turman: [24:58] Yeah. It's kind of kind of makes me think of, you know, if, uh, it's almost like, uh, eating stale bread, you know, if if you're if you're not there regularly. Yeah, it's like stale bread. That's a good one. So, yeah. So so let's try to let's try to just drill down into this really unique experience of of getting people in a room to have an encounter with God. Um, Sam, what are some of the things we should remember about, okay, this is this is not like I'm going to go on a prayer walk or I'm going to sit down and read a devotional or a portion of the scripture for myself, which are all helpful, all really good ways to prepare. What what do you think or what are you contemplating when you're preparing a sermon, helping Justin fashion a worship service? What is important about this unique thing of being together, uh, when we come to worship, uh, week by week? What's important to you in that?

Sam Holm: [25:56] Yeah, well, uh, first, that it's it's not really about us. It's not about me or about Justin. It's not about what I want to say. It's about who Jesus is and what he has done. Uh, the the the room is not ultimately the audience. Like God is, right? Uh, the the people on stage, I think of, I'm going to say his name wrong, but Soren Kierkegaard, uh, his worship model of we are the conductors, that really the people out there are the choir. God is the audience. And so what what has God already said that I need to say again in a way that people can hear and understand and respond to? And as I'm thinking about worship, I'm always thinking about, okay, how am I going to hear first from God, uh, as I'm leading as a preacher typically. I actually, my first three years on a platform at camp, I was leading in song and I'm not good at it. I've learned that in many ways that that's not where my gifts were. Uh, but as I get up front, right, I I need to hear from the Lord and then understand how do I establish that need for the people that are in the room, uh, so that they can hear again from God too. And so, uh, I just said a bunch, but I'll say one more thing in addition to that is I'm continuing to learn the importance of engaging hearts through prayer, like people talking with God as they're in the room, not just hearing me talk to them from the word of God, but them having a conversation with God. I think it can wet their appetite for listening to him as they are in a dialogue with him.

Mark Turman: [27:33] Yeah. Yeah, really good. Really good. If if you guys, you know, obviously we would probably all say that getting ready for worship on a Sunday morning or whenever you go, um, uh, that it really starts hours if not days before, right? Um, but if you had the ability to to do spiritual surgery on the hearts and heads of people, uh, approaching worship, what would be maybe two or three, maybe four questions that you would hope that they would ask or thoughts that they would have about, okay, Sunday is coming and what would you want them to consistently think about on, you know, Thursday evening as the weekend is approaching, Saturday at noon as they're thinking about where they are in the middle of their quote unquote weekend experience. If you could put two or three thoughts or questions in their mind that would help them to set their heart in the right perspective, what would those ideas, those questions be? Justin?

Justin Hornsby: [28:39] Yeah, I think, um, first I would, uh, just ask why. Like, why do I want to go to, why am I going to church this week? Uh, what's my, what's my reason for going? Uh, am I going because, uh, they better sing one of the songs that I like. Uh, that pastor, he better be preaching on, you know, he better really bring the word this or I'm bringing my friend with me. He better give him a word. This guy needs, uh, to hear something. Uh, am I going because, uh, you know, they have the best coffee, whatever. Uh, or am I going because I I believe that Jesus is my everything and if and if I don't go and and hear from his word and be and and reminded of his grace and and praise him for who he is and what he's done, uh, then I'm going to be missing the most important part of my week. Uh, so the why, what why do you go? I think that's a good question for any of us to ask on a Saturday night or even through the week. Uh, we know like making church a priority. We're we're taking the family to church or if you're single, I'm going to church. Why? Why do I feel like this is something that has to be a part of my life? If it's anything to do with any kind of legalism or or selfishness, uh, then that's probably not the right answer. It it needs to be because God loves me and, uh, and I need to I need to hear again about his great grace and praise him with his people. Um, another question would be, uh, is there any area of my life that I need to, um, to confess and, uh, you know, um, we want to have clean hands and and a pure heart before the Lord. We we are always going to be, uh, dealing with the presence of sin in our lives until Christ returns, but but we don't want to show up to, uh, to church knowing that we have been saying things or viewing things or living in such a way that just is so contrary, uh, to who God is and in his word. Uh, so just confessional. Uh, but I think really just asking like, what why do I need to, uh, to be with God's people? Why do I need to be in his house today?

Mark Turman: [30:45] Yeah. So sounds a lot like Simon Sinek, right? Start with why. Start with why. Yeah. Sam, anything you'd add to that? Any any question or idea you'd add to that?

Sam Holm: [30:55] Well, I'm I'm just listening to Justin learning from him like I do all the time. Uh, but that that thing he mentioned towards the end there, confession, I think that is a that's an important part of worship that we often, I think, ignore. I think there there are people that are not even wanting to approach the throne of grace because they don't remember one the gospel that he loves them in their sin, but but it's there there's a block, right, between them and the Lord. And so, uh, bringing that into worship intentionally, uh, saying, hey, uh, as we approach the word of God today, if there's something that you need to to bring before him and confess to open up the heart and for a communication line that is not on your end, not God's end because, uh, through Christ, we have love and forgiveness, but a confession, uh, a turning to him. Yeah, I needed to be reminded of that just now, Justin, so thank you for saying that.

Justin Hornsby: [31:50] And and you know what? I think that's one of the things that that we don't do well as as Baptist in particular, we're we're Baptist. Um, I haven't ever really seen a a Baptist church do that great. I think there are some, but, uh, really liturgical churches, of course, um, you know, Catholics do this, but, uh, and even, I think Presbyterians, others who really follow a liturgy, there's always a confessional time of, you know, so beginning with adoration, we do that. We we we seek to always begin our service with something about the greatness, glory, holiness of God that he's worthy. Uh, but then you usually you would lead into some kind of confession. And, uh, for whatever reason, that's harder for us. Uh, there's not a lot of songs about confession, so you have to it really needs to be like a prayer. Uh, and then getting into, uh, that we've been pardoned through the gospel, the most important part of the story. Um, and then just everything in in response to that. But you were asking earlier, how how do we determine what to do in worship? That's really it. Just telling the story. We have the same story to tell every week. We want to remind people that God is holy, that we are not, uh, but that Christ came to be, uh, our savior. And so is if we're doing that every single week through our songs and through our preaching, through our scripture reading, through our prayers, then we can leave on Sunday afternoon and say, we we were faithful to do what God asked us to do. We told the story of his son once again, uh, the most important story that can ever be told and then leave the results up to him.

Mark Turman: [33:21] Yes. Yeah, that's that's so good. Yeah. It just it just reminds me of a a paraphrase of Tim Keller, right? That, um, uh, we are so broken and so sinful that Jesus had to die, but we are so loved that he was eager to do it, right? And just coming back to that foundational truth over and over again, we are we are so desperately, we we underestimate the severity of of sin, uh, at every level. We just underestimate. Uh, but if you want to know how serious sin is, you look at the cross and the the brutality of what the cross represents, and that Jesus was eager and willing to go do that on our behalf. And that that ought to be, if you if you're asking on a on a Friday or a Saturday about church and you're on your own mind and you're saying, well, I should go. If that's as far as your why goes, it's not going far enough. That's right. It needs to get beyond I should go, right? Sam, you were going to say something.

Sam Holm: [34:23] Well, I was in line with what you're both talking about, the gospel. Uh, Justin sent me a meme years ago. Justin, I haven't forgotten it. It was before one of the major holidays, probably Easter or Christmas Eve, but I think it was Paul Tripp that you mentioned earlier, Mark, and he was saying, pastor, don't get cute. Tell them the same old story again. And I I do think when we think about worship, so often there's this pressure. I mean, we have a creative minister on our team who's phenomenal. Mark does a great job, but there's this there's this pressure to outperform last week by doing some version of an illustration that gets their attention on a better level or, uh, you you have a line that is, uh, memorable or whatever. And then it then it starts becoming about something that it's not about, right? It's it's Jesus and what he has done for us that we we have to. So I I literally I do think of that that quote, if not weekly, uh, several times in a month. Okay, I I start trying to get ultra to creative, to, yeah, uh, it's Jesus is what we've come to respond to.

Justin Hornsby: [35:38] At First McKinney, we really do our best to intentionally, uh, craft everything in our service, uh, so that it's not a performance, not a production. So we could, uh, bring the lights down really low. Uh, we could pump some fog and haze into the room. Some churches do that, uh, not saying you can't do that. Uh, but someone said years ago, yeah, the the, uh, medium is the message. So someone walks into our church for the first time, uh, maybe never been to a church before, and they see that we have, uh, flashing lights, they see there's fog in the room, the lights are down low, everyone on the stage is in a spotlight. They say, well, I've not been to a church, but I've been somewhere that feels like that. I've been to a concert. Uh, I've been, so it must be that those on the stage that when I like when I go to a concert that they're there to perform for me and, uh, I don't necessarily need to join in with them. I'm there to listen to them. And so that we really want to do everything we we can to not, uh, make our services feel like it's a a show in any way. I I love this thought from, uh, John the Baptist. So John the Baptist, there in John chapter one, uh, it says at the end of John chapter one that he had his own disciples. So some people were following John, not that they were worshiping him, but they were following him. Jesus comes on to the scene and, uh, John the Baptist, uh, wants to know like, are are you the one? And then the disciples come to him and his disciples come to John the Baptist say, is he the one? And then John the Baptist says, yes, behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. And then it says, those disciples of John leave him and go follow Jesus. That's what worship is. When people leave our services and they don't say, I want more of those people on the stage. I want more Justin, I want more Sam, but I want more Jesus. So that they're watching us, that God's using us, just like he used John the Baptist. He says, look at Jesus, behold Jesus. And then they they leave and want more of Jesus. They leave John the Baptist, they want more of Jesus. If people leave wanting more of us, then we failed at what God's called us called us to do.

Mark Turman: [37:45] That's a great, that's a great insight, a great, great insight. Sam, I I want to come to you in a minute, Sam, and talk to you about some of the other elements of worship. But Justin, I want to chase this out for a second with you. Um, uh, just this whole idea of what you just talked about. And talk a little bit about, uh, how people that are on the stage being, uh, using their gifts to facilitate worship for others that are in the congregation. Yeah. Talk about, uh, how how the people that are on your teams, whether they're singing or playing an instrument, uh, people that come to give a testimony, that type of thing. Uh, how can we help them understand the stewardship that they have toward that goal that you just described? Yeah. And then how do we help the congregation think about their expectations of those people? Yeah. Um, because there is something very important, um, that is going on in that interaction between facilitator and congregate and worshiper. Can you kind of talk through that as an expectation for on people on both sides of that? Yeah. Um, walk us through that a little bit.

Justin Hornsby: [38:58] Yeah, well, it starts with with the heart. It has to start with the heart. And, uh, so there's an expectation that everyone, uh, leading on that stage, especially singers, that this is another conversation, but there is a little bit of difference between people playing instruments, uh, and those singing because those singing are putting words in people's, uh, mouths. But, um, the those singers, I cannot lead people to a place that I've not been myself. If I'm not worshiping, if I haven't been worshiping Jesus, I can't lead others to worship Jesus. So it's hard. Uh, we can't, you know, we're not monitoring everyone's personal life and their social media constantly. But if someone is not is living contrary, uh, to what it means to represent Jesus, then we would certainly remove them, uh, from the stage. But it starts with, uh, the heart. And I I love this thought too of, um, you know, like some of us wear glasses, I wear contacts, but sometimes I wear glasses. Um, the the lens of the glass, its purpose is for you to see through it to focus on something else. When do you notice the lens on your glasses? When do you see it? Those that wear glasses, when when does it become your focus? When it's, yeah, when it's dirty. Yeah, when it's dirty. So, so we as worship leaders, we are meant to be the the lens. God uses us. Uh, he he he uses people. He needs leaders. He wants leaders. He uses us. We're we're meant to be the lens that people see through to see him. But if if we are in the way, then they're going to see us. And so, and I think again, it starts with the heart because I feel like in our church and I think any church, you can just kind of tell, especially as you get to know somebody, uh, and that's why it's important to stay in one place maybe for for a while and our, uh, our church knows Sam, they know his heart, they love him. I I think they would say that about Holly and I. Um, the more your church gets to know your leaders, the more they trust your heart. Um, and so I I our people should just know those people up there, this is not about them. They're the same people off the stage that they are on the stage. And, um, and the others leading as well. You can just tell, I think, when someone is singing from their heart for the Lord or if they're making it about them. You you just can kind of tell. We've all been in environments like that where it's like, this person singing up there, they're singing about God, but it seems a little bit like they're into themselves. And, um, yeah, got to be the heart.

Mark Turman: [41:29] Yeah. Well, I love that I love that analogy of the lens, right? And just and just helping both both the people in the congregation and the people that are facilitating worship. Hey, this is supposed to be directed to him as the audience. Absolutely. Um, and and you can, you know, if you're, um, if you're speaking in church, if you're singing in church, if you're playing an instrument, you can either be a distraction to people connecting to God or you can be a facilitator. I mean, when, uh, uh, we were pastoring in McKinney with y'all, I mean, I had people, we'd sometimes get people that would watch the drummer and he would be so committed to worshiping while he was playing drums. I I'd have people come up to me. It happened to me personally. I'm like, that guy is worshiping with drumsticks in his hand. That's right. And you're like, I just I just want to be a part of that. Whatever that is, I want to be a part of that. Yeah. But, um, yeah, so let's let's go let's go into the danger zone for a few minutes before we finish up, guys. And let's go into talk about some of the elements, okay? Um, I I have a a leader that I learn from consistently who said, uh, not too long ago, so much of evangelical worship has seemingly devolved into a cold play concert followed by a TED talk. Um, and I and I got to tell you, when he said it, it it it stung for a couple of reasons. It stung because it, uh, it sounded really true. Uh, and it also sounded convicting because I felt like I had done worship services like that. Um, uh, and some of what you've already referenced, Justin, is speaking in that direction. Uh, Sam, for you, uh, you and I are primarily Bible preachers and teachers. Uh, obviously, we would say the Bible needs to be central, but what about the other elements? Uh, you've recently been trying to to share some of what God's teaching you about prayer and how to incorporate that, uh, into a corporate environment is a seems to be harder than singing or even preaching. But what do you guys, what do you like, okay, what are the elements? What are the tools that God has given us that we ought to use? What are the tools maybe that we've forgotten about that we ought to use more often? Sam, how would you walk through that?

Sam Holm: [43:58] Yeah. Well, uh, the first thing I want to say is even to combine what you just said, the two things you just said. I I think there are some contexts in which if you are singing words that are about Jesus and directing hearts that way and it sounds a little like Coldplay and, uh, if if there is an an audience that if you can give a talk that follows a TED talk model but points them to the word of God and Jesus, you know, like so we can we can learn from, I think sometimes we we hear stuff like that and we think it's about a style, right? And I think we have to we have to constantly be students of who God has called us to reach and in our local context and and be okay with it not actually being the worship style that I want, uh, but but be the the worship style that would lead people to Christ and and point people that way. So that that would lead me to the the the second thing just as far as element for me, I think part of the element we've talked about already is is getting over myself in the moment. Uh, I I struggle with feeling inadequate. Justin will tell you that's not I'm not just saying that to be sound humble. Like I actually physically really struggle with feeling inadequate all the time. And that can be a real distraction on stage. It could become about me. A sermon illustration can be about how weak I am and it ends up being, oh, we feel sorry for Sam and not, uh, who Jesus is and what he has done. And so there's there's a there's a side to even getting over myself that then leads to the elements that will be in the service. So, obviously we haven't talked about communion, which the Bible leads us says, hey, when we gather, we will do this. Jesus talked about, right? The Lord's supper that we would remember him through taking that and how regular does that need to be? You know, that's always a question that I think churches should be asking, uh, as we remember and then baptism is is part of worship, right? To publicly declare our faith in Jesus. We haven't we haven't talked about those elements, but those are opportunities for us to do what we're already talking about, to point people to Christ and what Jesus has done and the testimony of how that's happened in the lives of other believers.

Mark Turman: [46:08] Yeah, it's so so helpful. And, you know, I think I think we ought to all make a covenant, the three of us right now, that we are going to be the ones to lead the charge to get better bread for the Lord's supper. Because these little chiclets that we've been using for the last, uh, 40 or 50 years, I know we're in the post-COVID era, but we we have got to get away from these little chiclets that really don't have any meaningful representation of the body of Christ. We have to get away from that. I'll support you in that. But yeah, Justin, I wanted to I wanted to get you before we finish up. I wanted to get you to talk a little bit about, um, uh, I have a friend, uh, who he and I talked through this. I shared this with Sam over lunch recently. He said, you know what, if if you really want to be a four-generation church, then what that may mean is that when you come and the and the congregation sings four or five different songs, uh, when you walk to your car, you're going to be thinking to yourself, well, there was one song that I really, really didn't like. And there was one song that I was completely thrilled about and the rest in the middle were pretty good. Um, talk about, uh, some of the importance of balancing the fresh, uh, with the familiar. Uh, you guys do a great job. We, you know, we I'd love to see if you want to comment at all on whether or not we actually have finally put the worship wars, uh, away relative to music. Uh, but music is a powerful and very personal thing. Um, but I would love for you to talk for a few minutes about how congregational music and congregational worship music is different from, I mean, we we ought to be grateful for Christian radio and for Christian recording artists. Um, but most of what you experience on the radio or, uh, on iTunes or whatever Spotify, whatever platform you use, most of those artists are not doing the same thing that can be and probably should be done in congregational worship. Yeah. Uh, help us think through our expectations, uh, around the fresh, the familiar. Uh, I had a worship leader at one point, the best thing he said over more than a decade of working together, he said, you know what? Uh, it's great when people sing, it's great when people have particular talent with with music, but he believed, and I thought he said it beautifully, the most beautiful sound to God is the sound of the church together singing. Absolutely. Uh, I don't know if that's actually true or not, but what what are your thoughts in this direction?

Justin Hornsby: [48:52] Yeah, you know, I could talk for hours about this. I have so many, uh, thoughts and, uh, hot sports opinions. Um, but a word you kept using is, uh, congregational. That is so important. Everything we do has to be, uh, for the people to be able to do with us. This is why we, uh, not that you can't, uh, a few times years ago, we did drama. Churches used to do drama a lot in church. Uh, I don't like doing that very much because the people in the congregation, they they're not joining in. They're watching. Uh, I don't like using dance in church because unless we're going to tell the whole church, let's all dance together and let's watch this person and let's follow their lead and let's all do the dance, then you're really just watching someone perform. We don't do, uh, much special music where there's just one soloist singing and the congregation isn't meant to join in. Uh, this was the problem 500 years ago when the church became just all about what those on the platform did, what the priest did. It was in a different language. It was not accessible to the people. Martin Luther comes along and says, we're getting worship back to the people. Like the, uh, liturgy means the work of the people. So it has to be congregational. Um, and I think something Sam said was right, like, uh, thinking about the, uh, Coldplay TED talk thing. Uh, we have to remember that I read this years ago in Bob Russell's book. He was a pastor in Kentucky. His church was, uh, Southeast Christian Church, massive church. He wrote a book called When God Builds a Church years ago. The very beginning of the book has this quote, uh, methods are many, principles are few, methods always change, principles never do. And so the principle of the gospel, who God is, who Jesus is, never changes. That that has to stay the same. A lot of churches try to change that, try to change the truth. The methods are always changing. So, even, which is hard, but a a someone who grew up in the church 50 years ago just kind of has to understand, um, the culture changes, songs change. Um, now, it matters what we sing. So the thing I always try to think about is we have three things. We got to sing songs people should sing, sing songs that are true, biblical. Number one, it better be true. We're not singing it if it's not true. Uh, sing songs people should sing, sing songs people can sing, meaning that, uh, it's accessible, congregational. Like you're saying, some songs on the radio, uh, even may have great words. They're just not really easy to sing along to. So sing songs people can sing, and then sing songs people should, uh, want to sing. So should sing, can sing, want to sing. There could be an awesome hymn with great words. Uh, and it might be easy to sing, but it may just be like so the tune may just be so weird or outdated and it's like, we just don't want to people don't really want to sing that song anymore. Um, so but the most important thing is what we're singing. And just a little story, uh, about this because I know that are the worship wars over? I sure hope so. I I feel like early on in my ministry, um, I dealt with that so much. I love that our church, we all worship together. We don't we don't do the, um, you know, people that like this kind of music in this room, people that like this kind of music in this room. Most of the churches I've been in, we did that. And I'm not saying it's the unpardonable sin, but I think what it shows is that it seems, I asked Keith Getty about this one time, the guy who wrote in Christ alone. I saw him at Park City's. I said, what do you think about this? Um, he said, it's not the unpardonable sin, but it seems to show that we value, uh, our preference over the unity of of Christ, the unity of of the gospel. And so I had a guy years ago at our our church in Kentucky. Uh, I was like 26 years old, coming to this church, big, big church. I was the worship pastor. I was young. Uh, he saw my picture and, uh, saw Holly and our family. We had little kids at the time. He saw us in the newsletter, our picture. I met him. He was a deacon. I met him at the deacon, the deacons all wanted to meet me, the new worship pastor. He looks at me, his wife right next to him. He says, I saw your picture in the newsletter, you and your young family, and I said, we're never going to hear the old rugged cross again. That's what he said to me. First time he meets me. He says, we're never going to hear the old rugged cross again. Okay, so for one, not true. We did sing the old rugged cross a couple times. But here here this is amazing. Uh, a few years later, his wife died. Rills was her name. Uh, he asked me to sing at her funeral. And, uh, then when I announced that we were leaving, moving to Texas to go to Park City's where I met Sam, he sends me an email and he says, Justin, I can't even see my screen through my tears. He said, I can't believe that you're leaving us. Now, what changed? It was not that we did all the songs that he liked. It's that he got to know me, he got to know my heart that I genuinely love Jesus, not perfectly, but with all my heart. And that, uh, that we that he I think the other thing you're you're you were asking is, he could see in the room, okay, I may not like this song that we're singing right now, but there's other people in here that seem like they're passionately worshiping Jesus. They're not dead, they're not performing, they're not like just feeling the music. They're they're pouring their hearts out to the Lord. And so I think, uh, when you see the heart, uh, you can get past what your preference is if you really seek, uh, the Lord in that. Yeah.

Mark Turman: [54:15] Yeah. Yeah. That's a that's a great way for us to to close out except for this. I, uh, I'm trying to build a little segment here at the end, guys, a little fun segment for people to look forward to. And I I haven't come up with a good name, but for right now, I'm calling it since you asked, okay? So Sam, I'm going to let you go first. Here's the question. Uh, you you and I, all of us, the three of us, we've had a lot of fun and we'll have a lot more fun leading people in corporate gatherings and experiences that are intended to help us connect with God, connect with each other, and serve the world well. Okay? That's the whole reason I wanted to have this conversation with you guys. But funny things do happen, okay? So Sam, this can this can be on you or it can be on somebody else. It can be on Justin if you want it to be. But I want each of you to tell me, uh, what's the funniest thing you've either seen, said, or done or somebody else has done in a worship service that you still talk about with others? What what have you seen, Sam?

Sam Holm: [55:21] Yeah. So I I'm messed up up all the time in our worship service. Our our staff, we had, uh, these awards for a long time we were giving out that one was actually a car break award and it had the word break on it. And the other one was a car clutch and it said clutch. And so the clutch was for someone doing it right. The break was for someone who just messed it up. And now I am the owner of the Break Award Emeritus because when we retired it, I had won it so many times. Um, but one of them that I think of, uh, one of the many that I think of is I was, I I had prepped all week to lead into the communion, the Lord's supper moment in my sermon. And so I had geared up for that. I I'd more than normal manuscripted it out. And so I I get to the moment and I was leading up, you know, share the gospel of Jesus Christ and I'm holding the the the bread in my hand and I'm like, the body of Christ broken for you, do this in remembrance and put it in my mouth and I'm chewing on the wafer and Justin leans over my shoulder and he said, Sam, you haven't distributed the elements yet. And so the I was chewing on communion with you know, which is the ultimate of what we're doing this together. It's actually what the word communion means with our with our church and they didn't even have the elements yet. And so I'm like, oh wait. And so I had to stop, you know, with bread and mouth and say, I'm so sorry. Now we're going to distribute the elements to y'all. I had a I had a lady after the service come up to me and and said, I thought this was some like new cool thing that young pastors do. And I was like, no. No, you're just I don't know. I just served communion without serving it. Yeah, you you became you you became blatantly guilty of the sin of 1 Corinthians 11, right? Of eating before everybody else. Yes. That's right. I was that is exactly right. It's it's outlined and Paul said, don't do it. Don't do it. Yeah. All right, Justin, Justin, what have you what have you seen, said or done in worship that's one of the best moments ever from a funny standpoint?

Justin Hornsby: [57:33] Well, thankfully, thankfully me, uh, personally, I mean, not too many crazy things that I can think of. I know one time at our my church in Virginia, I back then I was playing the keyboard and just started the song and, uh, started it in the wrong key. I realized about, uh, and I was starting by myself, started playing and was about 30 seconds in and I realized the band's all getting ready to come in here with me and they're going to come in in the wrong key and there's nothing I can do about this. So I had to just stop and say, okay, we're going to start over and do this song again. That's not in the in the moment, that's not funny at all, very embarrassing. Uh, but most of the funny things really do involve Sam. Uh, there's so many things that that this guy does, uh, in worship. So there was recently here at our church, I don't know if you were here this that Sunday, Mark, but he goes to pick up his table. He uses a table when he preaches and the top just came right off the table. As they were distributing communion. It's this concrete table. Yes, it's always during communion. There was another time when we were at Park City's, remember you, I think you came up too soon or something during communion and then you ended up just like duck sitting down like behind the table, but everyone knew you were up sitting behind the table. And, uh, so Sam, but the great thing about Sam is like he just smiles through it. Everybody just knows that's just who he's just goofy and, uh, it's not, it doesn't seem like it embarrasses him, which is good. Some people would be like, I'm never going back up on the stage again. But I mean, things happen. We're human. And the really good thing here, guys. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. I was just say, I don't know why it allows it to happen to some people more than others. I I think that, yeah, he he just he enjoys poking. He's like, hey, watch watch this. Look what I'm going to do today. This will be awesome.

Mark Turman: [59:26] Yeah. Well, the good thing here, the good thing here, guys, is being the host, I don't have to tell you any of my stories. That's the great thing. So, come on, Mark. And we've gone long. Because you ask, what if we ask? Yeah, no, well, you haven't asked and I'm not going to let you ask, at least not in this particular episode. So, uh, guys, thank you for the conversation and even more, thank you for your hearts for the Lord and for the church. And, uh, thank you for the way that you're blessing people. If you are in the North Dallas area on a Sunday and you're looking for a great place to worship, uh, I cannot recommend, uh, First McKinney high enough. Uh, you will love being there and being a part of this. Uh, and it will be a meaningful experience of worship for the Lord and for you. And I would encourage you to stop by. Check them out online if you're not in the area. We would love for you to do that as well. I want to thank you guys. I also want to thank our audience for following and being a part of our conversation today. You can find more of our resources at denisonforum.org and we'll see you next time on Faith and Clarity. God bless you.