Understanding the AI Bible, assisted suicide, congressional term limits & free speech

Dr. Mark Turman sits down with Conner Jones and Micah Tomasella from the Culture Brief podcast, as well as Dr. Ryan Denison, for a thoughtful roundtable on some of today’s most pressing cultural issues.

Together, they explore how artificial intelligence is shaping the way we encounter Scripture—including the rise of an AI Bible—and what it means for people of faith seeking truth in a digital world. They also wrestle with the complex topic of assisted suicide, comparing global approaches while reflecting on the biblical call to uphold life and compassion in suffering.

From there, the conversation turns to questions of leadership and governance, like whether congressional term limits could help restore trust in American politics, and the ongoing tension between protecting free speech and practicing biblical wisdom in public life.

It’s an honest, wide-ranging dialogue that helps listeners think clearly, live faithfully, and engage today’s culture with both courage and grace.

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Topics

• (01:29): Introducing the AI Bible
• (04:22): Debating the impact of AI Bible
• (13:43): Assisted suicide: A complex issue
• (17:57): Personal reflections on assisted suicide
• (30:37): The role of term limits in politics
• (33:15): Arguments for term limits
• (37:23): Challenges in implementing term limits
• (39:33): Local politics and term limits
• (44:39): Free speech in America
• (50:01): Biblical perspective on speech
• (59:03): Conclusion and final thoughts

Resources

• Ask Us Anything: [email protected]
• How has Denison Forum impacted your faith?
• Biblical Insight to Tough Questions, Volume 8
• The AI Bible: ‘We Call It Edutainment’ – Christianity Today
• Fantasy or faith? One company’s AI-generated Bible content stirs controversy
• The AI Bible – YouTube
• The AI Bible (@theaibibleofficial) • Instagram photos and videos
• Canadian writer Robert Munsch approved for assisted dying
• Euthanasia is now the fifth leading cause of death in Canada – Denison Forum
• First Amendment | The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression

About Dr. Ryan Denison

Ryan Denison, PhD, is the Senior Editor for Theology at Denison Forum. Ryan writes The Daily Article every Friday and contributes writing and research to many of the ministry’s productions. He holds a PhD in church history from BH Carroll Theological Institute after having earned his MDiv at Truett Seminary. He’s authored The Path to Purpose, What Are My Spiritual Gifts?, How to Bless God by Blessing Others, 7 Deadly Sins, and has contributed writing or research to every Denison Forum book.

About Conner Jones

Conner Jones is the Director of Performance Marketing at Denison Ministries and Co-Hosts Denison Forum’s “Culture Brief” podcast. He graduated from Dallas Baptist University in 2019 with a degree in Business Management. Conner passionately follows politics, sports, pop-culture, entertainment, and current events. He enjoys fishing, movie-going, and traveling the world with his wife and son.

About Micah Tomasella

Micah Tomasella is the Director of Advancement at Denison Ministries and co-hosts Denison Forum’s “Culture Brief” podcast. A graduate of Dallas Baptist University, Micah is married to Emily, and together they are the proud parents of two daughters. With an extensive background in nonprofit work, finance, and real estate, Micah also brings experience from his years in pastoral church ministry.

About Dr. Mark Turman

Mark Turman, DMin, serves as the Executive Director of Denison Forum, where he leads with a passion for equipping believers to navigate today’s complex culture with biblical truth. He is best known as the host of The Denison Forum Podcast and the lead pastor of the Possum Kingdom Chapel, the in-person congregation of Denison Ministries.

Dr. Turman is the coauthor of Sacred Sexuality: Reclaiming God’s Design and Who Am I? What the Bible Says About Identity and Why it Matters. He earned his undergraduate degree from Howard Payne University in Brownwood, Texas, and received his Master of Divinity from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. He later completed his Doctor of Ministry at George W. Truett Theological Seminary at Baylor University in Waco.

Before joining Denison Forum, Mark served as a pastor for 35 years, including 25 years as the founding pastor of Crosspoint Church in McKinney, Texas.

Mark and his high school sweetheart, Judi, married in 1986. They are proud parents of two adult children and grandparents to three grandchildren.

About Denison Forum

Denison Forum exists to thoughtfully engage the issues of the day from a biblical perspective through The Daily Article email newsletter and podcast, the Faith & Clarity podcast, as well as many books and additional resources.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

NOTE: This transcript was AI-generated and has not been fully edited. 

Dr. Mark Turman: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Faith and Clarity Podcast, a podcast of Denson Forum. I’m Mark Turman. We’re back with you today, and thank you for joining us as we step into a round table conversation where we wanna help you find some hope beyond today’s headlines and some clarity in today’s cultural confusion. At the end of this, we hope that you’re equipped to live by faith, not by fear.

And we’re gonna do that today by taking up some great conversation topics. We’re gonna talk a little bit about something called the AI Bible. We’re also gonna move to a conversation about assisted suicide. Congressional term limits and possibly a little bit of conversation about free speech and speech as violence.

My conversation partners today are Dr. Ryan Denison, who works at Denison Forum with the title Senior editor for Theology. We also have our friends from the Culture Brief podcast, Conner Jones and Micah Tomasella. Glad to have you guys with us all this [00:01:00] morning. Ryan, say hello. 

Dr. Ryan Denison: Hello. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Micah, are you there?

Micah Tomasella: Yes, I’m there. Howdy, guys. 

Dr. Mark Turman: All right. Glad to have you. Conner, say hello.

Conner Jones: Good to be here. Thanks for having me on, Mark. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Alright, looking forward to the conversation. A lot going on in our world and the four of us get to talk about a lot of things and especially about podcasting as well as talking about things going on in the culture and what the Bible says to all of us about those things.

And that’s what we want to try to do today. Bring you up to speed on some things that you’re probably thinking about already, but maybe also bring you some things that you’re not aware of, such as Conner, the AI Bible. AI is everywhere. I just got to do a presentation at a church here in the Dallas area helping some senior adults understand ai.

So we shouldn’t be surprised that AI is now impacting the Bible. One of the best things it’s doing is helping to accelerate translation [00:02:00] work so that the Bible can be put into every heart language very soon, probably because of ai. But you wanted to talk about something called the AI Bible.

So tell us about that. 

Conner Jones: Yeah, it’s honestly, some of the listeners here have probably seen some of these clips on social media or the YouTube videos of the AI Bible. It’s not a written word. It’s all visual, and it’s comes from pray.com, which I know many of our people that listen to this. They love pray.com.

They, they listen to the devotionals there. They, they go there for all their resources. They’ve got the app and all that. But pray.com has an entire AI segment of their company. And they’re creating these videos that are, I mean, honestly, they’re just astounding when you look at them visually of what they are creating of these Bible stories and these bible epics, and focusing on the heroes of the Bible or the villains of the Bible.

And they’re just creating these ai com p generated videos that look much better than the, like AI type of sloppy videos that you see on social media. The, these are like, they’re [00:03:00] using higher equipment, higher tools to build. Insane cinematic looking videos. And so I was like, what exactly is the AI Bible?

What, what is it? So I was, I looked it up and pray dot com’s growth and AI studio executive, his name’s Max Bard. He said that the AI Bible is a series of channels on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. It’s a project that we’ve created to glorify God using ai, mainly image and video generators. And we’re using AI to bring these Bible stories to life like no one’s ever seen before in these cool cinematic looking and engaging videos with vivid storytelling.

So in these videos, just to give some context, they’re using script writers, they’re using voices of human actors. They’re composing music. It sounds like a Han Zimmer or John Williams score In the background of these videos, they’re basically taking these amazing, typically Old Testament stories and making it look like a movie, something you would wanna go to the theater and see.

And it looks honestly, a lot of ’em kind of look like Lord of the Rings is what they’re almost going for. This kinda like fantasy looking ancient times looking style. And [00:04:00] they’re just visually impressive and they, they really feel like a video game as you’re watching. Sometimes they’re very detailed, sometimes they’re very violent.

We all know that the Old Testament has some pretty violent parts of it, and they are not shying away from that. And they just look like Hollywood Fantasy Productions. To be completely honest. It, it feels like watching a War of Warcraft in a movie setting but with all these Bible characters that we all know.

And so the question that I guess I have here is, is this the right way to use ai? Because there are critics and there are supporters and the critics come [email protected] says, this is edutainment is the word that they’re, they’re using, they’re trying to bring in the education of the Bible, but also entertain people as they learn the Bible.

And so they’re creating these like either 62nd clips of a Bible story or a 10 minute video of the story of Job as he’s fighting against the devil and talking to God and all of that. Or there’s the story of Elijah on Mount Carmel, and it’s this unique video. The fire coming down on Mar on Mount Carmel, and Elijah is facing the prophets of Baal and it’s [00:05:00] really unique.

But is this the way to do it? Because critics would say that it’s, it’s watering down God’s word, that it’s not really giving the correct context to some of these stories into scripture, and that it’s only focusing on these like epic sagas. You’re not really seeing a whole lot of Jesus teaching in the streets in these AI videos.

That’s something that you might see more in like the chosen series, but these videos are really focusing on some of the, the, the just epics, the battles the flood, the nephilim, all of that. And so there, there’s just a lot of critics out there that are saying, this is not the way to do this. This is if we’re gonna use ai, let’s do what you said earlier, mark, let’s do translations.

Let’s use AI to spread the gospel in a different way. But I just, I would love y’all’s thoughts. I know you guys all checked out some of these videos. What do you guys think about just this whole concept of the AI Bible? 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, I’m just wondering what Ryan thinks of these videos. I know, I know everybody on this podcast today really enjoys a good movie and a good story.

You know, Ryan wrote an article not long ago about K-pop demon Hunters. So I know [00:06:00] Ryan’s tuned into these things and he’s tuned into theology. So I’m just really wondering what Ryan thinks. 

Dr. Ryan Denison: Honestly, the videos I’ve seen, the, the quality is pretty, is pretty, pretty good. It’s better than I expected it to be.

It feels kind of like a video game to an extent. Like you’re watching a cut scenes from a video game. And I do, while I recognize kind of the dangers of going too far that way, if this is the only amount of Bible you consume, it will not be enough to get you to salvation. I think that’s important to say from the start.

I, I do think in the interviews that Conner, that you sent us with just where they talk about their hopes and their goals for the ai, for the AI Bible, I think they recognize that as well. And I think that’s, that was encouraging to hear. I would love to see, once they do start trying to get more into the actual message of the Bible, I’m curious to see how that, how that translates.

And whether that has the same success and whether they’re willing to continue producing things that might get less views, if those views are gonna be more substantive in terms of the content that they’re producing. So I [00:07:00] definitely have some questions going forward, but I think it’s a very interesting step in that direction.

And if someone was going to take that step, I’m glad to see the, the protections they’re putting in place rather than kinda letting that market get cornered by someone who is solely interested in just the views or just getting the message out there. But what did y’all think? 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, Michael, what, how did, how did you react?

What’d you like about, what’d you like or not like about these videos? 

Micah Tomasella: I, I have no issues with the videos. I mean, I guess that the people who are critics of this are also critics of the fact that, I guess they don’t like passion of the Christ. They don’t like the chosen series. They don’t like any dramatic representation of scripture.

I know that this is ai, but you know, this is 2025. So all of the examples as we cover ai. All of the seemingly bad things that come from it. I love that a company with a true biblical foundation is utilizing the same tools. And for a long time, I feel like Christians have kind of had second rate entertainment.

I mean, we’ve all seen [00:08:00] some classic Christian movies, you know what I mean? And it was bad acting at best for the most part. Why, why can we not utilize these same tools to, to glorify God? And then as far as the argument in terms of it’s, it’s incomplete, it’s not whole. We have a relationship with the people that do the, he gets this campaign and it’s kind of the same thing, you know, for those who don’t know that he gets his campaign, they, they do a lot of things at sporting events and baseball games.

You’ve probably seen Super Bowl commercials and they just give you a snippet to get you to think about Jesus, to get you to think about something different, challenge your way of thinking, and it spreads a seed. It leads to curiosity. I think if it’s doing that, and I think if that’s the goal, I don’t think that we should say that that’s a bad thing.

I think that we should say that that’s a good thing. Not everything you produce can be holistic in that way. And that’s okay in my opinion. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think you’re pointing out something that’s really helpful there, which is to kind of maybe wet people’s [00:09:00] appetite for knowing something about what’s going on in the Bible.

And maybe that draws them in in the same way that, you know, an ad from he gets us might do that. But to your point, I do, you know, I know people that won’t watch the chosen because they don’t want it to interrupt or disturb, you know, their understanding of Jesus or their image of Jesus. They don’t wanna apply a human personality to the person that has been created in their understanding through, you know, their reading of scripture and prayer and worship, that type of thing.

I don’t agree with that, but I know people that do that. I was a little bit concerned Conner, about. What felt like a little bit of overplaying to the audience in the, some of the information you shared with us, the interview from the CEO, that it was we’re just seeing what our audience wants, which I guess it’s helpful or useful if you’re building a company, but it seems hey, what’s the message that we’re trying to get out here is really what should be the [00:10:00] focus.

And then the other thing I thought about was, you know, I, in a couple of different settings, I have found myself thinking about what Paul says in the letter to the Philippians where he says, Hey, there’s some people out here preaching Jesus simply for a false motive or a prophet motive, and others are doing it out of genuine love for God and concern for people that need to know the gospel.

And Paul says. I don’t care as long as Jesus is getting talked about. Now I think he would probably have a lot more to say about it than that, but he at least acknowledges kind of what we’re talking about is, Hey, we’re trying to get Jesus in the story out in front of people. The other thing I’d say is, you know, there’s been a lot of emphasis in the last seemingly 20 years or so in church life that I am aware of where people have tried to say, Hey, every story in the Bible needs to come back to Jesus in some way.

And you’re not really seeing that in some of these videos for sure, or 10 minute videos. They’re, they’re not [00:11:00] trying to do that. At least not yet. 

Conner Jones: Not all of them are. I will tell you this. I did, I, so before this, I watched the Noah story video and it’s honestly just, it’s really unique the way they are able to depict all the animals coming in the flood and the arc and everything really cool.

And I was like, is this going to end in some way that points to the gospel? And it actually did. ’cause they talked about how just as God saved Noah and his family to restart humanity and everything. He sent his son to die for us. So they did. This was a 10 minute video, so you’re not gonna get that in the 62nd TikTok or Instagram clips.

But if you go to their YouTube channel, they do seem to have longer videos where they are at least trying to point some stuff back to New Testament scripture and the gospel and everything, even through prophecy showing how Jesus was going to come and die for us and save us. And then, you know, it ends in this beautiful picture of the arc and then the rainbow over it, and the dove flying and everything, just like you would ex like you think of it as a, as a kid.

But I will say, you know, we’ve come a long way from AI’s just developed significantly to creating these videos from, I, I just think we’ve been doing this for a long time. Creative liberties, taking the [00:12:00] stories of the Bible and, and creating things. Veggie tales. This is what Veggie Tales has done for years.

Just in a more kids, a lot of this Bible stories in my head. I think of through the lens of the way I saw it in a Veggie Tales video as a kid in the early two thousands. And so now we’re just, this is a more advanced way of, of doing it. It’s gonna look differently. And so I kind of agree with all sides here.

I, I land where Mike is saying man, this is, this is a good way to use the, the, the AI technology that we have. Let’s, let’s share God’s word through this. As long as they’re careful and as long as it is sticking to scripture that seems to be right. If they take too many creative liberties, then we go the wrong way.

But I also agree with you, mark, like if they’re only gonna respond to the audience, then we’re just gonna get a lot of more cinematic movie looking battle scenes as opposed to getting into the streets of Jerusalem in the New Testament, right? A lot to think through there. I really appreciate you guys diving into that.

I will leave us off with one scripture. On this topic, and I was thinking of two Timothy three 16 through 17 a scripture. Many of us know, and that’s just that all scripture is breathed out by God and [00:13:00] is useful for teaching rebuking correcting and training and righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

And so as we think about the AI Bible or anything that we’re doing this week as we read scriptures, just remembering that it is God breathed and that means it is perfect and we can interpret it as we go about, you know, our theology and growing and our faith and all that. We, we have the lenss to interpret that, but recognizing that as God breathed, this is the first step.

And so I think if we’re doing that ourselves or through AI or whatever it is, there’s so much to do with scripture and sharing it. And I just, I think there’s unique opportunities with this technology as we go forward. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Absolutely. Yeah. And AI is gonna touch everything, including probably every part of our entertainment going forward, for sure.

Yep. Yeah. Ryan, we’re gonna talk a little bit about something you’ve written about in the past as well as your dad writing about this sometimes, which is the whole journey of assisted suicide sometimes called euthanasia. So as we get into this, one of the things I want you to kind of speak to a [00:14:00] little bit as you describe what’s going on in this more currently is, should we be calling it assisted suicide, or should we be using the word euthanasia, or should we be calling it something else to give it the most accurate description?

Dr. Ryan Denison: Yeah, that’s an important question. And I do think one of the things we’ll see as we talk about this is that it looks different in different places in some really important ways. But one of the things that brought this to my attention was there was an article recently in the BBC about Robert Munch, who is the author of the children’s book, love You Forever, among Others.

He’s written 85 books that sold more than 80 million copies just in North America. But the Children’s book Love You Forever, is the one that I knew. It’s, I grew up, my parents read it to me when I was a kid. I’ve read it to my kids growing up, and it’s just, it’s a, it’s a great book. It’s a really just sweet message.

And then but the article is less about the books he’s written and more about his decision to pursue [00:15:00] acceptance in into Canada’s medical assistance and dying program. And he chose to do that because he was diagnosed with dementia back in 2021 has Parkinson’s disease as well. And the rules in Canada stipulate that you have to be mentally capable of making that decision on the day that you die.

And so to apply, you have to apply to the program long before you actually want to take advantage of it, I guess. And that’s something his daughter said is that in another article, his daughter was quoted saying yeah, he’s, he’s done this, but he’s still fine. He’s still doing great. And and he hasn’t picked the day of his, of his death yet.

But one of the things he talked about is how he watched his brother die slowly of a LS and he told reporters they kept him alive through all these inter interventions. I thought just let him die was his approach. And I, I think that speaks to the degree to which so much of this conversation, we can have it objectively.

We can have it from a 5,000 foot view where we. Talk about the [00:16:00] larger issues, but so much of it is just personal as well. It relates to our personal experiences and our personal story. Watching someone suffer and die from something like a LSI, I can understand how that would change your desire to live through a debilitating illness yourself and why something like medical assistance and dying would be more be more attractive as a result.

But I do think it’s important to show that, or to remind people that he hasn’t made that decision yet. He simply wanted to keep the option open. And I think that speaks to an interesting aspect of this because one of the things that sets the maid program in Canada apart, and one of the reasons that it’s become the fourth or fifth leading cause of death in Canada is that there are, they make it as accessible as possible in a lot of ways.

One of the things that sets it apart from California and from England, who recently, earlier this, early, this past summer advanced another bill kind of to. To basically work towards legalizing the same sort of program in in England as well. Is that in [00:17:00] Canada? The doctors can, if you sign up for the program, when you choose to die, the doctors are the ones who give you the dose in California and the UK and other places.

You have to take it yourself. And it’s, there’s a dramatic difference in the numbers of people that actually go through with it when you can’t, when you have to be the one to take your own life. They’re assisting you in taking your own life versus assisting you in dying. And I think that is where we get into the difference between where so many of how you name this is so important because at the end of the day, it’s, it’s the same outcome, but the path you get you take together, I think speaks to just a lot of the mindset behind this.

And so that’s kind of where I wanted to take this conversation with us today is when y’all think about this program, when y’all have seen, when y’all have read stories about it, heard people people’s stories that have, that have chosen to do this kind of thing what are some of the things that really jump out to y’all about this?

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, I just, yeah, just thinking about [00:18:00] the differences in our ages as, think about this. Conner, Micah, about 30 years old. Ryan’s 40 ish. I’m 60 ish. Just the different perspectives that come in here. Micah, what do you, what do you think about this whole issue, and particularly this, this whole thing about whether a doctor gives you the dose or you give yourself the dose?

Micah Tomasella: It’s a great question to ponder. You know, before I answer that question specifically, I want to give props to Ryan because I think as believers we can do a better job of sympathizing and empathizing with people as much as we possibly can, who are going through that type of situation, who’ve experienced a lot in their own life and who might be struggling in theirs through a lot of health issues especially who might be in the fourth quarter of their lives.

I think oftentimes we just kind of jump to truth, and I think that we can still communicate truth, but also acknowledge that this is very difficult. Like for Robert Munch to experience what he experienced with his [00:19:00] brother and then to be diagnosed with everything he’s been diagnosed with, we can all still acknowledge and just take a second and say, that’s tough.

I can understand why somebody would just at least think about that. And then we move to truth because our lives thank God, are founded on so much, on something so much deeper and stronger than just the way that we feel, right? Because we know what truth is and we know where we gain our truth from.

But to answer the question on the difference between assisted suicide and assisted death, I mean, you’re still putting yourself in that situation. I almost feel like it’s kind of like the difference between the guy who robs the bank and the getaway driver. You still, you still are a part of it. You still did it, you still put yourself in that circumstance.

You’re still going to jail. You, you know? And or if you know that you struggle with a certain sin, if you struggle to drink, but you keep going to a bar and you just keep hoping that you’re not gonna drink, eventually you’re probably just [00:20:00] going to drink. So if you’re putting yourself in that situation to be assisted in your suicide, whether, if it’s whether, if it’s I’m not sure what the right word would be there, but it’s this concept of you’re still putting yourself in that circumstance.

And I it’s tough. It’s tough. But those are, that’s kind of where my mind jumps to. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. I love the, the call out Micah, about, you know, we just need to acknowledge that it’s, these whole, all of these situations are really hard. And you know, my, my pastor used to tell me, you know, from the moment you’re born, you’re old enough to die.

And we’re all aware of that. And the, the older we get, the longer we get, the more we kind of see it coming, the more awareness that we have. You know, typically the older you get, the more funerals you go to. And this, this particular story kind of resonated with me, Ryan, in a couple of ways, because one of my closest friends, the guy that was best man in my wedding, died of a LS over a 24 month period.

And it was grueling, grueling to him, [00:21:00] grueling to his family, grueling to all of us. And then as a pastor, you know, I’ve, I’ve walked with a number of families that have had long, long experiences of suffering before death came. And, and even just simply getting older, you just you see it coming and I think all, you know, my own mom said, you know what?

Hey, I don’t have any problem being dead. And we, we talked about that. It was like, Hey, I don’t, I don’t have a problem being dead because I know what will happen and where I’ll be. It’s the process of getting there that concerns me. But I also, you know, I was somewhat connected to a recent story over the summer in which a person made this same decision.

And it ended up the way the whole thing worked out, it ended up being probably equally, if not more traumatic to the family for this person to make this decision and actually go through with it. And it was a situation in which [00:22:00] the individual had to give themselves the dose, but this whole process was very involved as it should be.

And by the time it all played itself out, I think it was probably, it may not have been as long as what it would’ve been if this person had just, you know, waited out the disease and died naturally. But the way I was thinking about it was almost like they, they had gone through a long period of suffering through disease, and then there was this really big boatload of trauma at the end that may have shortened the timetable, but it didn’t really shorten the trauma for the whole family.

Whereas, you know, this person, like many of us, maybe all of us would say, Hey, I just don’t want my family and friends to have to go through this with me. It just, it just ended up serving up a big boatload of trauma and pain and grief. Kind of kinda like what we would call a balloon payment at the end of a loan.[00:23:00] 

Like a big balloon of suffering right at the end. So anyway, it just a lot to think about that, you know, I, I have trouble with the whole concept. I understand why it would be appealing to somebody that is faced with a, a very serious illness. But I, I just have a problem with the whole thing. Conner.

What I What are your thoughts? Oh, go ahead, Micah. 

Micah Tomasella: I was just gonna say real quick, it’s human nature to nature to want to take control. So as science, medicine and technology, things like AI continue to progress, we, we have the ability to ma now to make decisions that we really weren’t able to make, like with assisted suicide and with assisted death that is different than actual suicide, the way that we’ve all known it.

We’re able, people are able to define it and shift it in their mind, so they’re able to accept it and rationalize it. So understanding our sinful, fallen in human nature as more power comes into our own hands. Personally, as things continue to progress, I, I suspect these issues and many [00:24:00] others will start to kind redefine because we can square it differently and we can take control.

But oftentimes we wanna skip to the end of the difficult parts. But we’re not God. No matter how far technology and medicine goes, we’re not God. And like you pointed to, there will be unintended consequences from it. 

Conner Jones: Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think, honestly, since I’m, I’m sitting here listening to you guys, I’m just like, man, this whole thing is tragic.

Because every day of life on this earth is a blessing and is precious. And I know, I, I totally agree that we should sympathize with people because there is an appeal to this. For some people, it’s the same way, different sins. Appeal to each of us. That’s the whole thing about sin. It’s dangled in front of you by the devil, and it’s appealing in some way, and it’s appealing to your flesh and to the selfish desires of your flesh.

But when you, we recognize that God has an intention for every day of life that we have on this earth, and that includes those who are terminally ill. It’s, it’s, it’s sad to me that somebody would choose this option. It’s also sad that governments would open up the opportunity. And what’s really [00:25:00] sad to me is, as I was reading some of the stories about this, it’s not just older individuals who are terminally ill that are making this decision.

There are people in their twenties who are claiming that they’ve got mental health problems and are opting to do this. I’m not sure if that’s in Canada exactly. Or if that’s just, I I know Europe is more lax. Some of the European countries are more lax on their laws around this. And so these people are opting to do this.

Now, I did read a story of a 28-year-old man who was making this decision and he publicized it on social media that he was planning to, to basically die. And he was. Working on the date that that was gonna happen later this year or whatnot. And then a bunch of people reached out and invited him to come have dinner with them.

Not necessarily out of a biblical stance in trying to share truth with him, but in terms of let us have a last meal with you, which is also tragic in a way that’s a, it’s a way of supporting this man’s decision where my hope is that somebody at least reached out. He’s having, he’s gonna have dinner with him.

He’s had 93 dinners this year with people around the world leading up to what is supposed to be his medically assisted suicide. [00:26:00] My prayer for him and for Mr. Munch here and anybody else who is deciding, or at least considering this option, is that God would intervene through other people, through people like this podcast, through people that are the hands and feet of Jesus, that they would sit down across from somebody who’s making this decision and tell them truth and tell them that there is hope, and that there’s so much more on this earth for them than to make a decision that would end their time short.

Because that is truth. God loves life. He loves life in the terms of older individuals who are terminally ill. He still wants them to be here for a reason until he decides to call them home. He loves, he loves little children in the womb. That is not our place to end their lives. And I don’t believe it’s our place to end the lives of others, no matter who it is.

And so I think there’s a lot of ethical and moral implications here, but I, I think if we point it all back to truth, God loves life. And if we can tell people that, that are in this situation, they’re considering this option then I, I think there’s an [00:27:00] opportunity for them to hear the truth of the gospel, hear the truth of God’s word, and make a better decision.

And that’s my prayer for anybody in this situation right now. 

Dr. Ryan Denison: A hundred percent. And I think so much of that just speaks to, at the end of the day, this is, I think, one of the best examples we see in the culture of the difference between knowing the truth and the truth. We kind of want to believe at times, like if you’ve, if you’ve gone through this, if you’ve watched someone suffer and know this is on the table, it, the temptation to accept it or to go that route is understandable.

But at the end of the day, the ba, the important fundamental truth is that we are not, the God gets the claim ownership of our lives. God gets the claim ownership of every day we have from birth to death, and that doesn’t mean we have to do everything possible to unnaturally prolong our lives. I think a lot of what we see in medicine right now, kind of like what y’all talked about before, is an example of us extending life beyond what God intended and making death.

[00:28:00] Infinitely harder as a result when it gets there. I, I think that’s why prayer throughout the process of a medical diagnosis is important. That’s why conversations with family are important. It’s why being able to approach death with a sense of peace that we know where we’re going on the other side of it is important.

But at the end of the day, I, I do think this is one of those issues where so much of it just pulls our heartstrings in a way that can blind us to the truth. And that’s a line we can’t ever cross. Especially as Christians, we are meant to help people understand God’s truth. And God’s truth when it comes to this is that taking your own life as a sin, regardless of how you do it, and it doesn’t mean it’s the unpardonable sin that’s going to separate you forever from God.

Nothing besides the rejection of Jesus can do that, but it is still a sin, and there’s no amount of justification that can change that fact. So find the most empathetic way to express that truth, but never wavering from that truth is, I think what we’re called to do. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, I think, yeah, you know, I think everything you’re [00:29:00] saying is right, Ryan.

I, I think the other thing is, is that particularly us as Americans, it’s certainly true of all people, but many of us have the, the intuitive goal of, Hey, I’m supposed to do everything I can to avoid pain and to avoid grief. And we will, we will sometimes ignore clear things from the Bible in order to do that.

When we are told by Jesus and by every other healthy spiritual leader in the Bible that, hey, there’s going to be some pain that comes and we, we are going to be asked and actually honored to carry some of the suffering of Jesus in our lives. And that if we could think about this maybe a little bit more, that hey, we’re all usually caught up in stories.

And if somebody that we love and care about is having a battle with an illness. Part of what may be going on there is God is trying to teach us all to grieve together and to work together to serve that person. And that there’s a lot of, of [00:30:00] spiritual development and growth that God can do in the midst of that kind of setting, not just for that individual, but for everybody connected to that individual.

Kinda like, kinda like what you said, where this guy that has now had almost a hundred dinners, there’s something intuitive that caused these people to reach out and to say, we need to come around this person. Maybe we’re not doing it the best way we could, but we need to come around this person in this moment because we ought to be anti-death is what we ought to be.

And as well as being pro-life, we’re gonna lighten the conversation a little bit away from a little bit things like assisted suicide. But we are about a year away from the next major election, what we call midterms. And we obviously like to talk about things going on in the culture politics and the way that culture is engaging with politics and to try to speak truth and joy and peace into some of that.

We believe that Christians need to be engaged in the public square. But Micah, you’ve been [00:31:00] thinking about term limits for congressmen. One of my recurring prayers over the last couple of years has been when is congress going to reassert itself in a healthy way? Because it seems to be.

Sleeping as an institution in some ways. And so anyway, how does term limits relate to all of that? 

Micah Tomasella: Yeah, I think term limits is a really interesting discussion because I probably spend more time thinking about term limits than the average Joe. I mean, I feel like I kind of came outta the womb and I was like, why are these people in Congress for this long?

This is crazy, right? But it’s, it’s, I mean, it just, it, it blows my mind because they seem to get a pass that no one else in government gets. That’s in those types of positions. I, it’s, it’s truly remarkable. But as I’ve been looking into this, I think it also reveals something deeply human. And it reveals something about our human nature and the importance that we take inventory of our own lives.

So we live in a time [00:32:00] of deep political divide, right? So a part of what fuels that divide, I believe, is who we elect and how long they stay just a part of it. It’s not all of the reason why we’re divided. There’s many reasons. I just think it’s a part of it. My topic today is term limits in our government, but I want to connect it not just to politics, but also how we examine our own lives in the process.

So right now, the president is limited to two terms, but members of congress, senators, and representatives do not have those same restrictions. They can serve as long as they keep getting reelected over and over and over again. This is why you see people who’ve been in office for 30, 40, and even at times 50 years.

For example, Chuck Grassley has been a US Senator since 1981. You can do the math on that, making him one of the, in 

Dr. Mark Turman: 1980, I got, I gotta tell you, Micah, 1981 was a really good year. I’m just telling. Yes. You know Reagan. Reagan, yeah. It was a good year and I graduated high school. Oh, there 

Micah Tomasella: you go. You graduated high school.

Dr. Mark Turman: Okay. Grade eight 

Micah Tomasella: high school. Yep.

Dr. Mark Turman: Sorry. 

Micah Tomasella: Sorry to interrupt. [00:33:00] Yeah. Yo so Chuck Grassley’s been a senator since 81, making him one of the longest serving senators today in the house. Hal Rogers also served since 1981 and currently holds the title of Dean, meaning he is the longest continuously serving member.

So the argument for term limits is that staying in office too long can disconnect leaders from the people that they’re consistently elected to represent that re they are elected to represent the will of the people. So instead of serving their communities, they can grow comfortable in power. Build influence. And in some cases they can line their pockets. Politicians lining their pockets is nothing new people and the people who stay in office a long time look at their net worth and be like, how are they making all of that money with their humble representative salary? Okay. At some point, the original idea of being a public servant, risks turning into a [00:34:00] career of self-interest.

And I believe this contributes, at least in part, to the deep partisan divide that we’re experiencing in our country right now. When elected leaders no longer seem to serve the best interest of their constituents, trust erodes. And when trust erodes, working across the aisle to find solutions becomes harder.

Ultimately, everyone’s in it for themselves. And so I think serving for longer than you need to serve sometimes can be the selfish decision. So I, I probably, like I said, think about term limits more than the average Joe, but what do you guys think? I’m gonna ask two questions. What do you think about term limits?

The need for it. Maybe we don’t need them. Should this be addressed? You know, and why do you see it contributing to the division of our country? That’s one question. And then the other question is, is on a personal level, what does it look like for us as Christians to take inventory of our own lives and make sure we’re not just holding onto something out of comfort?

Dr. Mark Turman: Hmm. I, I, I, I think I, I kind, I [00:35:00] kind of like and dislike the second question the most. 

Micah Tomasella: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. Because, you know, as we talk about all the, all the time in our organization, right? Nobody likes change except a baby. And even they cry through the process. Mm-hmm. And, and that, that’s a pretty good insight, I think, and a really good pointed question of, you know, none of us wants to give up the thing that’s become familiar and advantageous to us and stable.

And I, I guess I would turn the, the term limit question around on you Micah, and say, what are the positives of congressmen being able to be reelected multiple times, maybe not for 50 years, but what would be your recommendation, I guess, of how many times they could be elected and what’s the, what’s the positive of them being able to stay?

For as, for significantly longer than, say, a president. 

Micah Tomasella: I think that there can be a positive if they don’t make a permanent residence in [00:36:00] Washington DC if they’re only in Washington DC for when they absolutely have to be in Washington, DC and they actually live in the communities that they are elected to represent.

I think that that would make a really, really big difference. That they’re attending church there. That they’re, that they’re out and about, that they’re actually talking to the people that they’re elected to represent. And I believe almost all of them start out that way. But then you start to see they lead different lives and they’re just, they kind hanging out with the DC Elite and then they, you know, maybe you’re elected to represent a small region in Kansas, but you don’t spend much time in Kansas anymore.

We’re not in Kansas anymore. And so I think that, if done right. There is wisdom, obviously, in any type of position. When a pastor serves at a church for a long time, we look at that and we say, man, well done. Good and faithful servant. You’ve done this, you’ve stayed in your community. Oh, man. But I think power oftentimes corrupts, and I think comfortability at times corrupts, you know, like we’ve kind of talked about.

And so if done the right [00:37:00] way, serving for not 40, 50 years, but serving for a while, I’m not gonna make a full on recommendation right now. You know? Maybe no more than 20. I don’t know. I twist my arm maybe no more than 12 years. I’m not sure. But yeah. 

Conner Jones: Yeah, I, I got a lot, I got a lot of thoughts here.

Mike and I have had this discussion several times on cultural brief, but also just in our personal lives as friends, we, we love to, to talk about term limits, which is just, we’re nerds in that way. So I, my thoughts are this term limits are not in the Constitution. So it’s gonna be hard, it’s gonna be hard to make any adjustment here, because guess who would have to put it into the constitution?

The people who are getting term limited. Yeah. Congress has devote the people who like their spot. I, I do think one of the positives of not having term limits is when you do get one of those representatives or senators who’s just really solid in that the people love and specifically their constituents love.

It’s nice to keep them around. But I think the alternative is everything you’re saying, Micah these, these congressmen, congresswomen, whoever it is, they can become an institution themselves. [00:38:00] I think there are certain names that are floating around in everybody’s heads right now as they’re listening to this, that you’re like, okay, that person is just, they’re just their own institution.

They are their own brand, and they will never get, not reelected because when their name pops up on a ballot box. No one can compete with that. Honestly, Chuck Grassley’s, one of those guys in Iowa, he’s just, he’s just the guy, even though he is in his nineties now, it’s like nobody’s gonna run against him because he is the guy and has been for decades.

And so it becomes really hard for people to step up. When you get new opponents, people who want to serve their communities that are younger and are trying to get into this new wave of Congress or a new wave of a presidency or whatnot, it’s really intimidating to go up against somebody who has been around for a long time and somebody who is such a power player and the power goes beyond dc They, they are very powerful in that little constituency there in dc But man, they, they start to get their, their fingers throughout all of the country and, and they carry a lot of weight and a lot goes to their voice and a lot goes to their decisions.

And then a lot of [00:39:00] lobbyists come to their office and a lot of companies wanna make friends with them and all of that. And yeah, it, it’s, there’s a lot of concerns with it. I think biblically what you’re pointing out, Mike, is. It’s easy to point it out to people in power by how, how do we refocus that on our own hearts and our own lives?

Man, it’s a good call out because I’m just sitting here thinking there are so many comfortabilities that I have in my own life that it’s like, what if God is calling me to step out of this and change something and do something out of a leap of faith? It’s really hard to do, but it’s really something to focus in on and yeah.

What are the term limits, I guess, in our own lives? It’s a great question. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is just, you know, this has kind of become local for me where I live. I’ve, I’ve been somewhat involved, at least, at least around the edges of local politics in my town. And this issue came up relative to our mayor and city council in the last couple of years.

And the, the city council wanted to extend the opportunity to serve longer, and it became a really big [00:40:00] conversation, pretty heated at times in our city, and was voted down. The citizens said they didn’t want. To make it possible for a council member or a mayor to stay longer. Good. And it, and it really, it was pretty contentious in a lot of ways.

And so it’s kind of fresh from that local side. But yeah, there, there are things about this issue and particularly about congressmen that, you know, a lot of things in the news these days about government shutdown over funding. Ryan has written about that recently. That was a great article helping us understand why you could find that on our website.

You know, like one of the things that drives me crazy about Congress is that if they vote to shut down part or all of the government, they still get paid while a bunch of other people don’t get paid. And that just, there’s just something about that that irks me to No. Yeah. And I also think, I don’t, Mike, I don’t think about term limits as much, but I do think about.

The ideal age [00:41:00] of a political leader. This usually for me, centers around presidents. You know, we had what some would consider Barack Obama being too young to be president. I know. I, I like, I he can’t be president and he’s my age. That’s, he’s not qualified. I had that feeling when he was elected and now we’ve had two people that are either 80 or hovering at 80, and I’m like, I don’t know about that either.

You know, I’m like, what the ideal age is for me is the ideal politician would come into office when they’re 64 and they would be gone in a, a decade, maybe 15 years, something like that. Just, that’s just kind of the way I think about it. Ryan, land this for us. What, what are your thoughts about this issue?

Dr. Ryan Denison: Honestly, a, a quote from Milton Friedman that I’m not gonna get a hundred percent I think is is helpful as to my thinking on this, where he basically says the best approach to government is to figure out how to take people’s greed and make it serve the public good. And I think when it comes to, I think that applies to whether it’s [00:42:00] local congress all the way up to the federal level, we’re not gonna fix human nature and mm-hmm.

So I think when it comes to the realistic solutions for this, we have to find a way. To take people’s selfish impulses and turn them towards the greater good. And I don’t know, I think term limits would be a great way to incentivize that. Could be, I don’t know how you get people to go against their own personal good to make that work.

But I also think on a personal level, on a spiritual level, I think it also speaks to just the temptation to think that just because God has called us to do something in the past means that that’s what he’s gonna continue calling us to do in the future. I think of the example of John the Baptist in John three, where his disciples come to him kind of like worried that they’re losing followers to Jesus.

And he’s great. And it, it’s, he must become greater. I must become less. He didn’t take that approach. God didn’t change that because it was anything John was doing wrong. It wasn’t a punishment. It was just [00:43:00] God’s plan for his life was changing and he had the humility and he had the faithfulness to follow God’s new plan versus rely and clinging to what he, what God had asked for him before.

And I think so often I, I wonder if we miss the blessings of God in our lives because we’re grasping so tightly to what he’s given us in the past, that we don’t have an open hand to receive what he wants to give us in the future. And whether that’s at a government level or a personal level, I think it’s something that we all struggle with.

Micah Tomasella: Wow. Ryan, mic drop man. That’s incredible. So let me kind of land this plane with a few scriptures to help, help solidify this. So just like politicians, ’cause politicians are people, they can drift over time and so can we. We can hold onto roles, habits, or mind mindsets. I think past their usefulness or past the ability to be able to glorify God to a certain extent.

If he’s calling you into something else, if he’s leading you to something else. Proverbs 29, 2 says, when the righteous increase, the people [00:44:00] rejoice. But when the wicked rule, the people groan, one Peter five, two through three, shepherd the flock of God. That’s among you. Not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.

Psalm 1 39, 23 through 24, search me oh God, and know my heart. Try me and know my thoughts. See if there’s any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way of everlasting. What a beautiful prayer that we can be praying every single day. And then finally, second Corinthians 13, five. Examine yourselves to see whether you are.

In the faith test yourselves. So these, these verses can remind us that leadership without accountability drift towards self-interest. But God calls us in a different way 

Dr. Mark Turman: For our last conversation on this round table, we’re gonna talk a little bit about free speech. So much that can be said here.

Obviously, free speech is woven into our Democratic experiment so much around not only free speech, but speech as violence. And then we also wanna talk about a lot of what, what [00:45:00] the Bible says about our speech. Many of you know that it talks a lot about that, but obviously very much on our mind because of the assassination of Charlie Kirk.

That seems to have been driven because of what Charlie Kirk said. And that that was what angered his assassin. We’ve seen other things kind of flowing out of that. We’ve seen one of the late night hosts, Jimmy Kimmel was suspended for a while. Under pressure from the FCC Chairman Brendan Carr, which was also affirmed by our president.

And then restored Kimmel was after a period of suspension. Earlier we saw the cancellation of another late night host, Stephen Colbert. And a lot of issues stemming from that. Guys, I just wanted to see if we could have a conversation about speech from a Democratic standpoint, but also from a biblical standpoint.

Let me remind you of what the First Amendment. To the Constitution actually says in its [00:46:00] language, one of the reasons I bring it up is because Christians, particularly Baptist Christians in Virginia were instrumental back in the colonial days of getting the Constitution of our country adopted.

But they demanded that the first 10 amendments, what we call the Bill of Rights, be added to the congregate, to the Constitution. Or these Christian leaders said, we won’t support it. We won’t help it get passed unless you guarantee some of these essential rights. And the first one of those is the First Amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press. Or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances that is sacred territory to [00:47:00] us as Americans.

And so much of what we see going on in our national conversation revolves around one or more of those pieces of the First Amendment. Dr. Denison the founder of Denison Forum wrote about this not long after the assassination of Charlie, Charlie Kirk. Two or three points from his article that you can find on our website that I thought were really, really valuable.

The idea that violence is a threat to all of us because violence, as Dr. Denison says, vetoes. Freedom of speech and freedom of politics. He quoted Ezra Klein, the New York Times columnist with a great quote. The foundation of a free society is the ability to participate in it without fear of violence.

Political violence is always an attack on all of us. He also quoted the columnist David French, who said after Charlie’s assassination, the assassin didn’t just take aim at a precious human being created [00:48:00] in the image of God. He took aim at the American experience itself. Dr. Dennison went on to point out that many, especially many young people college age kids, that type of thing today are indicating that for many of them they see speech as violence and therefore amazing.

Statistic one in three college students today in America believe. That violence against those who are speaking what they consider to be hate speech is justified. That violence toward that individual is justified. Dr. Denison goes on to point out that critical theory probably has a lot to do with this.

That the idea that all relationships in society can be boiled down to oppressor and oppressed, and that if you are being oppressed or you believe you are, then your goal is to overcome those who are oppressing you by whatever means you feel justified. I think there’s [00:49:00] a lot for us here to talk about.

I don’t believe that speech is violence. I think if we adopt that idea, we’re in big trouble as a society. But at the same time over the years, we have adopted. A number of limits on free speech, kind of that theory that you can’t go into a, a crowded theater and yell fire that, that’s not protected speech.

But just wanted to get you guys kind of initial thoughts on where we are in this conversation. We’ve seen so much violence. We’ve seen the near assassination of a presidential candidate in the near assassination of President Trump twice. And then we saw this tragic event with Charlie and we’re seeing a lot of other realities around this.

What are your thoughts when it comes to speech, speech and violence? And we’ll get to responsible speech in a minute. Who wants to go first? 

Conner Jones: I, I just think we are a country [00:50:00] founded on free speech. And honestly, I, I believe we see this all the way back in the Bible. The Pharisees did not like what Jesus was saying, and they tried to shut him down with what he was saying.

And they worked hard to, to basically kill his opportunity to have free speech. And, you know, he was claiming to be the Messiah. He was claiming to be God, and they did not like that, and he was the son of God, and they just could not grasp that. And so they did everything in their power, and they were the ones in power at the time alongside Rome to try to shut his, you know, his speech down.

And so I think whenever you see something like that in today’s environment, it’s a, it’s not a good thing, whether it’s from the government or from powers that be at a company or whatnot. I, I, I, obviously companies, it’s a different ballgame actually. For instance, the Jimmy Kimmel situation, Disney was the, ultimately the one who made the decision to suspend him.

Was that under pressure from the government? That’s to be debated, right? And I don’t think the government should be pressuring anybody in the same way. I don’t think the Pharisees should have been pressuring Jesus to, to not talk. But companies can make their own decision [00:51:00] if they think it’s going to damage their reputation and their business.

That’s their call. I think what’s interesting is when you think about the American experiment as David French said in that New York Times article when, when Charlie Kirk was killed, that didn’t just kill him. That that was a, that was a hit on the American experiment of being able to talk as you wish.

And the thing about it is, when you do that, when you’re able to say what you want, if people don’t like it, that’s their right to not like it as well. And if you say something that is divisive or harmful or totally wrong, people are gonna let you know. And if that means you’re a business owner and they’re gonna boycott your business, that’s the consequences of saying something wrong, right?

That’s the consequences of trying to be divisive. That’s kind of what, you know, Elon, when he bought Twitter and now it’s called X, he said, I wanna open up the town hall again because. Twitter was just shutting anybody down that was saying something that they disagreed with their own political stances.

Or against COVID policies. And this is the same thing with YouTube. They just had to apologize for basically shutting down accounts back in 2020 and 2021 that were saying that COVID was [00:52:00] from different origins than the government was saying. They, they’ve, they’ve been on the wrong side of this themselves too.

So when Elon bought X, he was like, I wanna open the town hall. If somebody says something stupid, they’re going to get, you know, ridiculed for it. And that’s, that’s their own prerogative. And that’s the way it should be, right? Is if somebody stands up in a, in a city council meeting, like you were saying, mark at the city council, if somebody stands up and says something that is just completely baseless, then the people are gonna turn on them and say, you should not say that that is wrong.

And they’ll kick you out, or they’ll stop gonna your business or they’ll ostracize you. Whatever that is, that’s the consequences of it, right? And that’s how free speech was intended with the founders of the Constitution. At least that’s the way I see it. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Micah, what are your thoughts on free speech and free speech and violence?

Micah Tomasella: You know, mark, I think you bringing up Jim’s words and your own words about critical theory, how there’s always an someone who’s oppressed and someone who’s oppressing them. I think boiling it down even further, we’ve just seen this shift in politics in the last 20 ish [00:53:00] years or so. I think a part of critical theory is the concept of identity politics.

If you vote this way, if you vote for this party, if you believe this thing, you are against my humanity. You are against the way that I think and feel and am so therefore you are potentially committing violence against me. You’re, you are obstructing the way I am living. You are you’re not giving me room, you’re not giving me space, you know, whatever it might be.

And then you just kind of, you kind of keep going in your anger air, and then, you know, one in three college students are saying that. In some cases, violence is necessary when they find something that they deem wrong or that they deem as hand hate speech. I completely disagree with that. And I think identity politics and critical theory have been terrible for our American experiment.

We need to find a way out of it because I should be allowed to disagree with you as promised to me by the founding fathers in the Constitution. And we should be able to get to a point where we can disagree and then not take it the next [00:54:00] step and say, oh, because you disagree with me, therefore you do not love me.

Therefore you hate me, therefore you might be committing violence against me. And, but that’s, oh, goodness gracious. We just keep talking about human nature. You know, we, we, we want to belong to something, right? So in a lot of ways, these last 20 years, our political beliefs have become our religion.

This country, and it’s become everything. It’s become the fabric of who we are. Therefore, that’s why we’re seeing things like critical theory and identity politics being so prevalent. And I think that’s a big part of what we’re seeing today. Yeah, it’s just a, a 

Dr. Mark Turman: strange evolution of thinking that we’ve gotten to the point that, hey, your disagreement with me is dangerous to me, and therefore I have to respond with whatever means necessary to match the threat that I perceive.

Simply that started with a disagreement. Ryan, I wanted to come back to something that Conner mentioned, which is the, this idea of free speech [00:55:00] that, like I said, it’s written into our constitution. It is foundational to us as Americans. What about the spirit? Is that, is that. Also something that the Bible affirms that we are as I heard one person say, we are a speaking people.

We see things in the Bible that very, from the very beginning, that God simply speaks and all of creation occurs. Is this idea of the ability and the opportunity to express ourselves to, to speak freely, is that more than just an American idea? Is do you, would you say that’s also a biblical idea? 

Dr. Ryan Denison: I would, and I think it speaks to, I mean, I guess I don’t, I guess it’s a little ironic to use the word speaks to talk about it, but I do think it speaks to the idea that we have been created each one of us with inherent value.

That is just that ’cause we are individuals made in the image of God and that we have something of value to offer. And when we think about our job as Christians, it’s. When Jesus tasked us would go to [00:56:00] go and make disciples of all nations, the first thing he says in that is to teach them what I’ve commanded you.

Teach them to obey what I’ve commanded you, and I mean, we’re meant to use our words in ways that edify God. Scripture is filled with also with examples that weren’t about the dangers of misusing our words. And a misusing speech. And I, I do think that’s something that’s important to keep in mind with this conversation is that just because you have the right to do something doesn’t mean you should do do it.

We have the right to say what we want, but it doesn’t mean that it comes without consequences. And I think so much of that gets back to this idea of what should those consequences be? But at the end of the day, as Christians, if and as just people, if you’re confident that you have the truth, then you shouldn’t be afraid of a conversation.

You shouldn’t be afraid of debate. And I think when, as if Christians get to the point where we are afraid of free speech, I think what it tells the world is that we’re don’t, we’re not really all that confident that we’re right. And I think one of the things that scripture teaches that we should have absolute confidence that when we [00:57:00] share the gospel, especially.

When we share biblical truth, that that is based in reality, that it’s based in God, that it is something that we can stand on. It is a firm foundation, as Jesus calls it. And I think getting back to that, that should fill us with a level of confidence that when we engage in public discourse, especially around biblical matters, that we don’t have to be afraid of people disagreeing with us because we know we’re right.

That’s not a prideful thing. That’s just the, it should be the natural byproduct of knowing that we have the truth of God and the privilege of sharing it with others. We need to be careful with how we do that. But so much of this, I think, gets back to just so many of the attacks on free speech are based in fear.

And that is not something that, as Christians were called to do. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think that’s exactly right, and, and something that we need to think deeply and carefully about. Even in our even in our country, in our society, we’ve, we’ve struggled with this question and we we understand that there are some parameters [00:58:00] that we need to honor and respect.

I was doing some work on the website called Fire, which is the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression which is a worthy organization to, to talk about. They kind of summarize at least four areas where our speech is not always protected in terms of its freedom. They list four true threats, those statements where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit, commit an act of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group.

They say that fighting words are not protected as free speech. That is those words that by the very act of being spoken, tend to incite the individual to whom they are addressed to respond with violence. Obscenity is a standard that we have that is not protected defamation, which is something you hear from time to time where somebody is intently and [00:59:00] intentionally trying to ruin the reputation of another person.

But I wanted to land this conversation today around some of the clear things that the Bible teaches us. I was teaching in a church recently and listening to the words of Jesus that are really. Pretty sobering words. Matthew chapter 12, verse 33. Jesus sometimes said some really hard things. He said to the religious leaders of his day that Micah was talking about, he called them in Matthew 12, a brood of vipers.

And he says, how can you speak good things when you are evil for the mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart. A good person produces good things from his storeroom of good. And an evil person produces evil things from his storeroom of evil. And then he says this, I tell you that on the day of judgment, people will have to account for every careless or worthless word they speak for.

By your words, you will be acquitted. And by your words, you’ll, you will be condemned. [01:00:00] Many people from a church context run to James chapter two, where James has a lot to say about the power of our words. How they can steer a ship, but they can also set a forest on fire. And then our ministry kinda lives by the teaching of Ephesians four 11 where it says Jesus gave himself or gave some to be apostles, prophets and evangelists, some to be pastors and teachers to equip.

The Saints for the work of ministry to build up the body of Christ, which is what we hope our podcast both this one and the Culture Brief Podcast, all of our podcasts do consistently. And it says, our goal is until we reach unity in the faith and the knowledge of God’s son, growing into maturity with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness, no longer being children tossed by the waves and blown by every wind of human teaching, but speaking the truth in love.

Let us grow up into him. Who is the head [01:01:00] that is Jesus Christ. And that is a really good goal for us to keep in front of us. No matter what our opportunities may be, but always when we have a chance to speak that we would be seeking to speak in love. And guys, I think you’ve done a great job of doing that this morning on this podcast.

Thanks for bringing a really meaningful conversation about important stuff. And we want to thank our audience for following along with us. If this has been helpful to you today, please rate and review us. Share this with others who can find our podcast. And we also encourage you to check out denison forum.org.

You’ll find more information and good conversations our daily article culture brief, as well as Faith and Clarity. We thank you for following us today, and we’ll see you next time on the Faith and Clarity Podcast.