Iran, war, and the surprising growth of Christianity

Mark Turman: [00:00:04] This is Faith and Clarity and I'm Mark Turman, your host. We equip you to discover hope beyond the headlines by seeking the Holy Spirit and depending upon God's truth in the Bible. The world, as you know, is hyperfocused right now on the new war that has broken out between Iran and Israel and the United States. It's likely that that's what we'll be focused on in many, many ways for weeks, perhaps months, or even longer. People have already died in this conflict, including four US soldiers. You've certainly seen that in the news if you've been watching. And this week we are talking about how God may be working to redeem not only this conflict, but even this region. Perhaps God is stirring in a fresh way right in front of us to bring spiritual awakening, religious freedom, and just a whole sense of flourishing to Iran and the surrounding region that we haven't seen in our lifetime. So we're going to jump right in. I've got a couple of friends helping me today. My good friend Gerald Griffin, who is the founder and leader of 2Cultivate, a ministry dedicated to strengthening pastors through free coaching, mentoring, and counseling. Gerald has more than 30 years experience as a pastor, and he serves additionally as a trainer for the North American Mission Board, helping equip church planters for the work that they seek to do for their kingdom. Gerald, welcome to the podcast.

Gerald Griffin: [00:01:26] Thanks, Mark. Glad to be here.

Mark Turman: [00:01:29] And we also have today Dr. Hormoz Shariat, who was born in Iran, and we are honored to have him back with us again. He's been a part of our podcast before. If you didn't remember, he is the president and founder of Iran Alive Ministries. He has an incredible story personally about how he moved from a Muslim background in his growing up years to becoming a follower of Jesus in 1980. I want you to remember that date, 1980. It's pretty significant in the overall story of Iran, and we'll get to that in a moment. But Dr. Shariat holds a PhD in artificial intelligence. Some people are talking about that every now and then these days, right? And, uh, maybe we'll touch on that. But he is a renowned authority on the region of Iran and the accompanying area. He has a book called Iran's Great Awakening, which is a very helpful source of information about what God is doing in this part of the world. Since 2001, he has been broadcasting the gospel of Jesus into Iran and into the Middle East. He has led and his ministry over 100,000 Iranian Muslims to faith in Christ. His channel is the most watched Christian channel in Iran, reaching more than 7 million viewers a day. Uh, he is also the recipient of the National Religious Broadcasters International Impact Award, and he has been called by some the Billy Graham of Iran. Dr. Shariat, welcome back to the Faith and Clarity podcast. We're glad that you're here.

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:03:06] Thank you, Mark. Good to be back and share updates about Iran. Nice to see you, Gerald. Appreciate you very much.

Gerald Griffin: [00:03:14] Thank you, sir.

Mark Turman: [00:03:15] Yeah, well, we are certainly glad to have a conversation, maybe one of several conversations that the Lord might want us to have as this new situation in Iran continues to move forward. But, uh, kind of to get us started, Dr. Shariat, I just wanted to ask, uh, some of us are old enough to remember that there was an Iran before 1979, 1980, before, uh, the oppressive regime, uh, that some are trying to overthrow now that we thought might actually be overthrown in January when the people of Iran, uh, were just flooded into the streets. But what was it like growing up in Iran? What was it like before 1979 and the Islamic Revolution? Uh, tell us a little bit about what that was like spiritually, um, and is that, I'm just kind of wondering, is should we be praying as Christians that we would return to something that you experienced in your growing up years, or are we, should we more be praying for something that we've never seen in Iran in, uh, in our lifetimes at least?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:04:28] Well, good question. Yes and no. And you have to know what's happening so you can pray effectively. Uh, you ask about, uh, those days I was growing up in Iran and I I want to tell you, there was a transformation before our eyes. Um, Iran was changing very fast. The Iran I knew when I started high school and when I finished it was totally different. Uh, many good things was happening, but the Shah, Shah did not allow any freedom, political freedom, and people were not happy with that. But the economy is just booming. It's one of the fastest growing economies in the world. And, uh, wealth was growing and people had opportunities. So, uh, the people Iranian people were moving against, uh, against the Shah and it was fueled by his enemies, which were communists and mullahs. They were his enemies and they at the end, they united to bring him down. Uh, but the there was all freedoms in Iran, uh, except political freedom. And they did a revolution, they hoping to get back their political freedom. And you know what happened. This is history. Not only did they did not gain the political freedom they were hoping, they lost every other freedom that they had. And that for 40 some years of suffering. Um, about the, uh, spiritual, uh, condition at Shah's time, freedom of churches, freedom of missionaries to be Iran. And I've talked to the missionaries who spent years in Iran before Shah. You know what I tell, they tell me? They said, nobody was interested in Jesus Christ. He said, we were free to share the gospel, but nobody was interested. If we passed on, uh, we wanted to talk to 100 people about and want to give them a free Bible, only one would get. That's before 79. Now, people are so hungry, so hungry for for Jesus. Many are coming to Christ and they're begging for a Bible and open heaven in Iran. So, uh, free political environment, but closed spiritually before Shah. Now, at this point, open heaven spiritually and there has been oppression by the government of Iran, which hopefully would be ended very soon.

Gerald Griffin: [00:06:54] Dr. Shariat, you've given us a good view of what it was like politically, uh, freedom wise. I'm curious because, uh, Mark and I both grew up in East Texas. Uh, if you start talking to us about our childhood, there there would be memories we would have that would be in common. Uh, simple things about what we did as children. Can you tell us a little bit of what it felt like as a child, as someone growing up, uh, in your country?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:07:20] Uh, as a child, I felt there was a hope for the future. I had so many dreams about when I grow up and I could see them possible because I could see the doors open. Uh, uh, the Shah would had this amazing universities, for example, and Shah and his regime paid for my education and many other people. At, uh, Sharif or Arya Mehr University, which became one of the top universities in the world. A graduates from that that university, uh, he he his education was such a high level and he paid for it. Uh, that even Stanford, you know, I was in California and near I lived near Stanford and, uh, one time I read the dean of the Stanford engineering said this, he said, we have more PhD students from Iran than our own graduates from Stanford. So, uh, the education was so high. As a child, I just had dreaming, dreaming. One day, I will have a PhD. One day I will go to United States and be a research scientist. So dreaming was there and, uh, and achieving your dreams was there. I'm saying that because it's not right now today. That's why you see a riots and protests, uh, on on the streets of Iran. The young people in Iran, they cannot dream. They do not dream. They have no hope. I, when the protest start, I remember seeing this, um, young man, he was standing, this is before the massacre, he was standing before the police and revolutionary guards and he was saying, hey, go ahead and kill me. I'm young, but I never lived. Go ahead, go ahead and kill me. I don't have a life. Go ahead and kill me. So, the environment I grew up was so positive, so full of hope, but Iranians right now, especially the young people have no hope. That's why they came on streets and 40, about 40,000 of them were killed.

Mark Turman: [00:09:30] Wow. Wow. I just, yeah, that just rings so many bells in my heart and in my mind. It just, I, you know, on another podcast, I asked a leader to give me a definition of hope. And he said, hope is simply having a reasonable expectation of a good future. And that optimism, um, that even Americans is are struggling to have right now. Young Americans are struggling to have a sense of hope and positivity and optimism about what the future can hold for them. It also just seems incredibly, uh, aligned with what Jesus said on many occasions when you said, you know, when the country was open 50 years ago, the economy was prospering and people were not interested in spiritual things. They were not interested in the gospel. And now it's just exactly the reverse. The economy is basically in shambles, I believe. And people are in many ways barely getting by, many of them suffering in very poverty stricken times of experiences, but now they're spiritually open. Um, and that just seems to be so strange, but it just kind of makes me think, wow, what, what all can change in, in less than a generation, in less than 50 years. Um, Dr. Shariat, I, I know that you're a pastor, uh, not a politician. Um, but we do want to ask just from your experience that when tensions and conflicts like what we're experiencing now, uh, when those things start to come up, how does it actually look in the daily lives of the people of Iran? Uh, you mentioned religious freedom. It was there, now it's gone. We're hoping that this situation might bring religious freedom back. Uh, but in preparing for this, just learned, reminded again, 84 million people in Iran, uh, only 2 million of them, approximately, are Christians. Uh, in the last 50 years, there's no, there are no churches now, there are no Bibles. Um, what does, uh, what does it look like when conflict and war breaks out? What does that look like for the citizens and what does religious oppression look like over the last few years?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:11:49] Well, let me start with the, uh, religious oppression. As the Christianity has been growing in Iran, the government of Iran is being more and more alarmed and may I use the word afraid of Christians, Christianity growing and they want to be in control and they they see this, uh, religion or religious, uh, as Christians are growing in numbers and influence. So that's why the motivation for the persecution of Christians have been. They want Christians, hey, I know you're contagious. We want to stop you. Yeah, and, uh, so sharing the gospel with people has been a a crime. Even greater crime has been to go to a house church. So the persecution is there and it's has been increasing because the fear of the government towards Christians has been has been increasing. And, uh, their strategy has been just arrest Christians. They cannot arrest all two, three million Christians. So this is their strategy. They just, just, uh, arrest a few for minor crimes and put them in long jail sentences. So to teach a lesson to other Christians, hey, you better watch out. For example, just a few months ago, 17 people were arrested. I'm going to tell just story of one of them, Narges. Narges was a young mother. She just had a baby. She just had a baby. They took her away from her baby, put her in jail, and a court sentenced her to 17 years in prison. 17 years in prison. Can you guess what her crime was? Attending a house church. So that's what the government of Iran is doing towards Christians. Now, with all these, uh, changes, the Christians are like others, they're having hope that maybe there is a bright future for the church in Iran, that maybe we can gather together very soon and we can worship together loud. Did you know, did you know Iranians watch, they love to watch worship videos from the West, both American and Iranian and Farsi worship. They love worship. And when they worship, I ask them, how do you feel? They say, we feel jealous. How come they can go to church, gather and worship? We cannot neither gather and we cannot worship loud. I had one of the leaders, uh, from Iran came to one of our conferences outside Iran and she was standing beside me and, uh, I had called the leadership to together so I can train them outside Iran. I cannot go to Iran, so I bring them out. Uh, this is like last year and I, and she was, uh, she, I I saw her, she was so into worship and she was crying, she was crying, crying out of joy. I said, what's, what's going on? And you know what she said? She said, this is the first time I can hear myself worship because in Iran, when we gather, we have to be quiet. We cannot sing. We just listen and we just lip sync and we never sing out loud worship. So Iranians are experiencing a revival, amazing love for Christ, amazing love for the lost, amazing love to read the Bible and obey and the church, underground church, persecuted church in Iran is very strong and it's growing fast.

Mark Turman: [00:15:22] Yeah, I would love to hear that and love to hear even more about it. Um, are the, uh, are the daily conditions in Iran pretty difficult for most people or, uh, how does that look?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:15:35] Definitely, yes. Definitely. I mean, you mentioned, uh, 60% is under poverty line, which means they're worried about their next meal. I mean, that that's the truth in Iran. Uh, Iran is one of the richest and poorest, richest and poorest countries in the world. Richest because it has so much oil and gas and income, but poorest because the government has used it for to, uh, spread terrorism around the world, to support its proxies, and to kill its own people and embezzle the rest. So, uh, the people of Iran have been suffering, uh, violence from the government, suffering, uh, with the economy is being, being so bad. Uh, so that and of course Christians the same. The Christians are suffering exactly the same. Uh, but now with what's happening, there is a new era, new new day for them and hopefully, maybe the future will be much better.

Mark Turman: [00:16:34] Yeah. So, just broadly speaking, I mean, it would, it would be hard for any of us as Christians to say that we are excited about war. There's just something that doesn't feel right about that, obviously because of, uh, I mean, people are being killed and all kinds of things going on. But overall, do you, do you see this intervention by Israel and the US as a good thing? Um, is it, uh, just tell us a little bit about just what your initial reaction was when you heard about the attacks that were started a few days ago and and then tell us a little bit how personal this is for you from the standpoint of, uh, the people you know who are actually in Iran even now, personal friends, family members, tell us how this is personal to you.

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:17:23] Yes, yes. Well, of course, we get involved personally because we know people like that. When 40,000 people were killed in January, some of them I knew, some of them were our members of our church. Many of them were Christians. And even if they're not Christians, you know, your heart goes for goes for them. Um, I would say that to our staff that it's very tragic that Christians were killed among those 40,000 people. But you know what's more tragic is that non-Christians were killed. Because Christians, we know we have eternal life, but those have no future, no salvation. So when that happened, it really grieved my heart. I people we knew, they were arrested, some of them were killed. And as a Christian, we share the grief of people. We started doing a live daily broadcast just to speak to people, give them a real hope, pray for them, mourn with them, share their grief, and and minister to them. But, uh, now getting to this recent war, I have to give you a context. People of Iran are so miserable, have been so miserable for the last year, they have been begging United States and Israel, would you attack us? Can you believe it? How miserable people group should be that they are asking a foreign nation, would you attack us? Life is so miserable. They feel they are hostages in the hands of Iranian regime and they're saying, we can't release, we can't release ourselves, we can't free ourselves because even if we speak up, we get killed. We need outside help. So they have been saying at least for the last year, um, hey, Uncle Trump, by the way, they call Trump, Uncle Trump. They love him so much. Uncle Trump, come and save us, come and help us. So when this war happened and the first hour of the war, the supreme leader was killed and people started rejoicing. You probably have seen the videos of people on streets singing and dancing because after days and years and months of mourning, suddenly there is a good news. Supreme leader is here no more. So I share the grief of the people, I also share the joy of the people. Now, personally, as a Christian, um, if there is a regime change, it can open up, it will open up new doors for our ministry. As you know, we have shared the gospel and many, many people have come to Christ. We have a plan called return plan. We know as in Iran alive, what we should be doing first week, first month, and as we look at our plans, we get so excited, so excited that of the future of Iran, future of our ministry, future of church in Iran, very exciting. The reason, we look at that, we have believers in every city and town that we have led to Christ. And it's just a matter of organization. When Iran opens up, we will be able to plant tens, maybe hundreds of churches in the first three to four months. So that's personal, that's our ministry goal and that's the joy to see bringing these people together and let them worship God together.

Mark Turman: [00:20:47] Wow. Wow. We pray for that to happen. Absolutely.

Gerald Griffin: [00:20:51] Yeah. Dr. Shariat, um, obviously we can't go there right now. Um, but if we could and we were able to get into the home of an Iranian family and sit down with them and they knew the government was not listening and they could speak openly, what would we hear from them?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:21:12] They would talk about, I'm I'm thinking there are several topics. One is about the government and, uh, what they're doing and how they have ruined their lives. But a growing conversation is about Islam and spiritual things. Uh, you know, human beings are spiritual and they, uh, when they speak about Islam is mostly negative and they make fun of the government officials and Islam. That that has become a fad. It has become a pastime, a fun time. Just gather and make fun of Islam and the government of Iran, make jokes and and it's out of pain, of course, uh, that they've been so pain, you know, humor comes sometimes out of pain. And there's humor. They talk about, uh, what Islam and Muhammad and the prophet of Islam is because of their pain. But at the same time, uh, they are talking about spiritual things outside Islam, not necessarily Christian things, but spiritual things. Iran is a very, very spiritual. They're seeking God. So they're saying, Islam is not the answer. So what else is? I still love God. I still desire God. Where, what else? That's why Iran has the fastest growing evangelical population in the world because the people are saying, I'm done with Islam by millions. I'm done with Islam. Let's see what else is out there. And Christianity is a very, very good option. They they they come to Christ and once they come to Christ, the the life, their lives is changed such a dramatic, visible way that it is normal in Iran that when somebody comes to Christ, many of their friends and family members come to Christ. That's amazing, amazing what's happening because you know, in other Islamic nation, when one person comes to Christ, he's usually friends and family members who persecute them and even try to kill them. It's a reverse in Iran. Somebody comes to Christ, friends and family members, many of them make the same decision. That's why Iran has the fastest growing evangelical population in the world. Amazing, open heaven. This is a this is history in the making. Iran is becoming, Iran will be the first nation that rejects Islam and comes to Christ. And Islam is experiencing its greatest defeat in its history in Iran today. History is in the making, not just political, spiritual, and not just spiritual, biblical, biblical prophecies are being fulfilled even today.

Mark Turman: [00:23:47] Yeah, that it sounds like you're describing a chapter out of the book of Acts is what it sounds like. And, uh, we hope it is. We hope it's an Acts 29, Acts 30 kind of experience that we are going to witness in the days, months, and years to come. Gerald, you had a question. Save the the audience from me and, uh, ask your next question.

Gerald Griffin: [00:24:09] Okay, as as you're well aware, um, we have listened to our president talk a lot about how that this action is going to make a difference in America, how it's securing the the, uh, the safety of Americans. And I know that in our country right now, we we are as about divided as I have ever, uh, understood us to be. And so this question may not be able to be a a question you can answer for all Iranians, but what are the people in Iran, um, really think about this conflict between Iran, Israel, and America? Do the does the ordinary Iranian, you think see America as a deliverer or an enemy? Are they delivering, uh, just Iran or are they doing something past that? And or is this a possible, uh, a future, a path that is possibly a future for their country?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:25:04] Uh, yes, I have to, um, go back. This is not just recent. This is a trend among the Iranian people. They always love America. Always love America. Even my myself, let me, let me confess something. I was on streets of Tehran 79 and I was saying death to America, you know, death to Shah. And when I said death to America, in my heart said, not yet, please. I want to go there and get my PhD there. So, even then, uh, Iranians always love America. They, if they have freedom, they want to be like America. They want to have democracy American style. And number two, they love Israel. And that's that trend is growing, has been growing the last few years. Um, people of Iran, even Muslims who used to hate the Jews, right now you ask them, say, why should I hate the Jews? What did they do to to me? It's my government that ruined my life, not the Jews, not Israel. You are the one, you are our enemies. Israel is not our enemy. You are our enemies. You have destroyed this country, not them. You have killed us, not them. So, this is a trend that, uh, Iranians love America and love Israel and they're they're they have been calling out for, uh, Trump to come and help them and save them. And if the Trump does it, which he is doing it, and if this what has started, uh, ends in Iranian freedom, Iranians will have Trump as their hero for many, many years to come. They will be their hero. And it's amazing that Iranian people are saying, hey, come and save us, come and at even come and attack us. They were saying to Netanyahu just a few months ago, hey, Netanyahu, we know what you can do. You laser accuracy, with laser accuracy, you kill the Hamas leaders, you kill Hezbollah leaders. We know, even they were hiding seven stories under the ground, you you got them. Would you please do the same favor to us and come and kill our, uh, supreme leader and and commanders? They've have been asking this from Netanyahu and Trump. So when this happened, uh, recently, that's why they're rejoicing. Now, the future, there's so much love for America and for Israel by most Iranian, common Iranians, that I can, I can really guarantee very soon, Iran, Israel, and US will be very close friend as soon as this current regime comes down, very soon after, you will see that. You will see that coalition, that's love, that that close relationship with these countries. Why? Because people of Iran are desiring that. They love America and Israel. They wanted this, they want a relationship with it. So, look for it. Uh, it's going to happen soon.

Mark Turman: [00:27:59] Yeah, that's a, that's a really good insight to something I was going to ask, which is, what do the Iranian people wish that Americans understood about them? And that that's a pretty good description that, uh, they're actually much more in favor of the West, of America, of even Israel, um, that they're much more open and eager to have a relationship, uh, even though the the government of the last 50 years has made it virtually impossible, um, for that to happen. Um, and it's, you know, it's almost unthinkable, uh, in America today that anybody from here would want to or be able to travel to Iran. Um, we, you know, we remember the hostage crisis, we remember, uh, just all of this conflict and all of this animosity between our countries for, uh, you know, almost 50 full years. Um, Dr. Shariat, I was just going to ask if, if you could wave a wand and tomorrow Iran was totally free, you've mentioned that you, you believe that you could plant dozens of churches within a matter of months. Uh, do you think that there would be the, uh, the growth of other religions? Do you think that secularism would come back the way it was during the days of the Shah before the Islamic Revolution in 1979? Um, what, what do you think or what would you anticipate not only about Christianity, but, uh, the pursuit of other faith as well?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:29:32] Very good question. Yes, to be realistic, when Iran opens up, the number one religion would be secularism, not Christianity, to start. Of course, we have a work to do, but, uh, there will be a good number of Christians which by their lifestyle and behavior, they could bring other people, uh, to Jesus. But, uh, realistically, Iranians even today, majority, they're saying we're done with anything spiritual, we're done with with any religion, not spirituality. Uh, they're they're still hungry for spiritual things. We did a survey, uh, you must be, you might be interested in this. We we paid for a survey two years ago. We paid a company inside Iran, a secular company. We gave them a set of 40, 50, uh, questions, said, ask a few thousand people, we want to know the answer. And, uh, we realized people have rejected God, many of them have rejected, uh, organized religion, but they're still open to spirituality. They they want to know true God. They want to have a relationship with God, whoever he is, but not in religion. So, Iranians are still hungry for a relationship with God. By the way, another thing we found that might be interested to you and your audience, uh, in our survey, we asked their people's attitude towards Islam, and then a 10 questions later, we asked the same question, what do you think about Jesus and Christianity? 84% said, we are done with Islam. We we don't think Islam is from God. Many of them said, Islam is from Satan. Very negative of Islam, 84%. And 92% of them said we have a very positive of Jesus and Christianity. So it's no wonder they're so open to the gospel. But we have to, uh, this is what we're doing, understand where the people are. You know, Paul said, I became all things to all people. And we're trying to do the same. Uh, gospel doesn't change. Uh, the content is the same, but the the the cup that you, uh, give it away, the the cup that you serve the gospel could change. So we are studying where the young people of Iran are and where the people are thinking and we present the gospel that way. And let me share a big victory. Once we did that two years ago, we did that survey, we realized we're losing the young people. That people are coming to Christ are mostly older, over 40, over 50. And we not many, many people are coming to Christ through us who are under 20, under 25. But that survey showed us how to approach the youth youth in Iran. And I'm here to joyfully report to you, we changed our messaging, we changed our social media, totally changed what we put on social media. And the one of the strongest successes, I would say, is that the number of the youth coming to Christ has jumped significantly. So we are connecting with the youth in Iran. So we have to, coming back to you, yes, I I think when this, uh, when Iranian government changes, I think people will number one will be focused on a secular democracy there. That's they think that would be best for the future of Iran. That would pay, they would pay attention to it. They will not be much interested in spiritual things, but we will continue, uh, our messaging. And when, when, I I believe they will go towards secular democracy for maybe a year, two years, maybe three years, but they're going to be let down because they cannot bring that. You know better than me, the Middle East culture does cannot sustain democracy. Democracy comes from a biblical worldview. And, uh, even if Iran becomes a democratic government, it's going to be just a couple years and they will be disillusioned again. Um, let me, let me sum it up. No matter what happens, we have a mission. We have a mission. We're going to do our part. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Gerald Griffin: [00:34:00] Just a moment ago, you talked about the young mother, 17 years, uh, prison sentence for attending worship. With that, we still hear great reports about Christianity growing. Is that overall of Iran?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:34:17] Yes, yes. Uh, there's some areas, we've done studies. There's some areas that the growth is faster and some areas slower, but all of, all of Iran. And the amazing area, one is Mashhad. Mashhad is a very religious city and that has the fastest growing number of believers there. Then south of Iran, people are open. Yeah, uh, the signal, the message goes all over the country. Even, even villages are receiving our signal. They're hearing the gospel and many of them are coming to Christ. We're getting reports of sometimes even the whole village have come to Christ.

Mark Turman: [00:34:58] Amazing.

Gerald Griffin: [00:35:00] Let me do a follow up about the government. Um, one thing that I'm, I've been told, I've read is that there is, uh, the government's used informants for years and people are secretly spied upon, they're, uh, they tell what they're doing, what they're saying back to the government. Those people are even paid for that. If we get past this war to a place where people have a chance to openly worship again, and we look for something to where we can, as you said earlier, sing loudly, uh, tell your story. What do you think that, how do you think the church is going to be able to overcome the distrust that this government has put into the people for each other for decades? How, how does the church overcome that? How, how do we renew that openness and, uh, and trust for one another?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:35:56] Very good question. That's a, that's a Christian strategy. And, uh, what I mean is, yes, uh, distrust towards, uh, religious people. And even our channel, people, uh, come and first they say, oh, this is another religion and we don't trust this. This, this is a, they sometimes they call me a mullah with a tie. This is a Christian mullah with a tie. And the same thing. And that that's what they think. But what changes their mind is they see and they sense this is different. So the number one impact, um, of the gospel in Iran is not just us. We we share the gospel. And but the words, uh, is not enough. The number one impact of the gospel in Iran is the people who have come to Christ and their lives have been changed and everybody notices. They say, you used to be depressed, now you have so much joy, you have so much peace. You have so much respect. You used to be so disrespectful to your parents. Now you're respectful. So, knowing that when Iran opens up, the behavior of Christians, the love, the kindness they show towards non-believers and to to each other, isn't that biblical? They will know that you're my disciples by your love, right? This is so such a impact, powerful when we love one another. Let let me share a personal story. I was a pastor in California and, uh, I would, I, you know, people would come to Christ, I would baptize them. And more than once, I asked the person that I was about to baptize, I usually ask them a a short testimony. And they, uh, this is a kind of repeated different forms testimony. They I would ask them, how did you come to Christ? He said, uh, they would say, because of love. And I asked him, oh, because you came to church and we loved you, we accepted you, we took care of you. And more than once they said, no. He said, when you came, when you Christians came to and loved us, loved me, I was suspicious. They said, hey, they're pretending to love me to make me a Christian. I'm not going to be a Christian. I'm not going to be, I'm not going to be deceived. They love me, so they're kind to me to make me a Christian. So I asked him, so how did you come to Christ? And they say, when we saw your love for one another. When you see, I saw Christians loving one another, respecting one another, that proved to me that this is real. It's not just me, it's real. So, for the future of Iran, uh, we have trained, this is not a new concept. We have trained, we call them army of love, that the Christians, number one is that you love. During this protest, many of them were outside, were out on on the streets, loving people. We send them out by tens of thousands of Christians were out there. I told them and they did it. You know, I told them to do it and they do it. Uh, I asked them, go out there, you know, share the gospel, pray for people and by the way, take some water and some sandwiches on your backpack and just serve them. And and many of them, I told them if some people are wounded, bring them to bring them home and serve them. And we have testimonies of Muslims being served in a house by Iranian Christians and they come to Christ when they're being served. Uh, you know, if when people are shot, they cannot go to the hospital, right? Because they executed in the hospital. So they go home and and people of Iran already are doing it. But when Iran opens up, our love for one another would be the best sign that God is with us.

Mark Turman: [00:39:49] Awesome. Awesome.

Gerald Griffin: [00:39:50] Scripture tells us to pray for one another. We pray for, uh, those in authority, we pray for other nations. And so it's very easy for us to know the right thing to do is to pray. And so as we pray, I think sometimes, however, we are praying through a cultural lens that we have in America and we may not be praying exactly the way you would think would be most effective. Can you tell us how best to pray for your country?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:40:18] Um, we, uh, you know, prayer has power and we and we are authorized to use that power. So let's use the authority God has given us. We have a license to use the name of Jesus. Let's use that license and pray and we are, we are, we have the power to bind and to release. So, my number one, uh, prayer request is to pray against this spirit of murder, which is in Islam. Why? Because it's still possible that the government that's left over, um, to survive, they may still use violence. They may still kill people because that's the only way they know what to do, how to do, to survive. So, let's pray against that spirit of murder. Number two, pray for Christians. When I ask them, um, how do I, how can we pray for you? They, this is the two things they ask me, they tell me. And they say, pray for courage. We don't want to be, we want, we don't want to be afraid. We don't want to be afraid because they killed 40,000 and we just go and hide in our homes. We want to continue to be hands of God, the voice of God, the mouth of God to these people. So, courage. Isn't that a book of Acts, you know, the persecuted, they said, oh, God, give us courage, you know, give us wisdom. So, and number and number three, they they ask for wisdom. They say, there's so many things coming and we get confused. What should we do? What should we do? The war and the dangers. So they said, we want to hear God clearly because we want to obey him, but we need to hear him. And, uh, so these are the prayer requests that the church in Iran wants to be a salt and light and they need our support, they need our prayer and they need God's direction.

Gerald Griffin: [00:42:06] You know, in America, we, we're very careful. We don't want persecution. We don't want persecution as Christians. Uh, never in a million years would I want that, but I read about it, I hear about it, I talk to people who go through it. What do you think that God has taught the people in Iran, the Christians in Iran through persecution?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:42:28] Hang on to the Lord. You have nobody else. You have no other option. Just walk with the Lord. That's your only hope. That's the only option. You know, that's why when I see Americans in the West being a great disciples of Christ, I tell them, I value you because in America, we're so comfortable. Really being dedicated to Jesus is an option. You can going to church is an option, reading your Bible is an option, praying and worshiping is an option because we have a comfortable life. Not for them. This is their lifeline, walking with Jesus, hearing him, reading his word, uh, praying, that that's their that that's their lifeline. And many of them, uh, are doing that. And by the way, there there is a move of God among them. Um, about signs and wonders and and miracles. Uh, it's so common in Iran that people who contact us and I talk, I have to ask them, have you seen Jesus? Has he ever healed you? They don't, they don't, they're not excited about it. They think it's normal. I, you know, this person said, I saw Jesus and he healed my cancer. I was dying and he appeared to me, healed my cancer. Then I was thinking, I have to ask him. He doesn't offer his testimony like that. I have to ask him, what, how did, what happened to you? Have you ever seen Jesus? Yes. Has he done a miracle for you? Yes, he healed my, he appeared to me, he healed my cancer. Then I was thinking, if this happened to an American, uh, one of us in America, we probably will have multiple interviews and maybe write a book. I saw Jesus and Jesus healed me. And because it's so rare here, but for them it's so normal. Another amazing, positive thing, there is an anointing, there's a move of God there. Many of these people, many of Iranian Christians, um, they haven't yet been taught that miracles ceased and visions are not for today. Many of them are healed or saw Jesus and they have this natural faith that they go and pray for other people and they come again without boasting, they just, they just report, I prayed for that person, his cancer was gone. I prayed and he healing. So there is a, there is a move of God, not just, uh, for Christians, but through Christians. There's something like, they they pray for people and they report to me miracles.

Mark Turman: [00:45:03] Yeah, wow. Yeah, we need more of that. We need, we need a lot more of that here for sure. And, um, maybe what God is stirring, you know, we, uh, Dr. Denison says all the time, God redeems all that he allows. Uh, now sometimes he does that on very long timetables, uh, that we wish were shorter, but we believe that God does and will redeem all that he allows, including what is going on in Iran right now. You've got something, you've got a thought that you want to share, don't you?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:45:35] Well, this is, uh, all glory has to go to God. You know, he is the one who opens nations. He, he's the one who opens hearts and I feel, uh, sometimes, uh, Lord telling us, hey, to his children, mostly in the West, I think this is the message he's saying, um, you know, I've done everything I could. Uh, I died on the cross for these Muslims and I love them so much. I make a special appearances to them, okay? I'm, I've opened their hearts. I appear to them. Now, I've done everything. Could you do your part? Just share the gospel with them. Their hearts are open. Amazing. Uh, when, you know, our channel, let me share this. I'm our channel, you know, we're very good at evangelism by God's grace, but sometimes I'm preaching to Christians. My message, my sermon is just for Christians, okay? And in the middle of sermon, I said, okay, I'm going to take a two-minute break from my sermon to Christians and share a short version of the gospel. You know, who Jesus is, what he did for you. And I did it, I take a break, two-minute version of the gospel. Can you believe it? People start contacting and coming to Christ, a two-minute version. So, to sum it up, history is in the making in Iran and let's align ourselves with God. Let's not just watch history, be history makers. Jesus has done everything, opened a nation, an Islamic nation, is open to the gospel. People are hungry for the word of God. They come to Christ, they beg us, please teach us, teach us, we want to grow. So, Jesus has done everything, it's up to us now to move and obey him and partner with him and make Iran the first Islamic nation that turns to Christ.

Mark Turman: [00:47:33] Yeah. And then, and, you know, I have a, uh, Dr. Shariat, I have a friend who sometimes prays, God, we come to church and we hear the stories of what you did a long time ago. We want to be a part of the story you're writing right now. Um, we we want to be a part of that right now. And, uh, so I'm just, yeah, we just just so much more we could talk about. Like I said, if we could just get you to be excited a little bit, we would have a good conversation. But it's so clear that God has given you such a passion for your homeland. Uh, as we get ready to close, I wanted to ask you, Dr. Shariat, how many years has it been since you were in Iran?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:48:12] I came out at 79. I came to Christ in 1980. I started sharing the gospel and in the beginning years, I couldn't afford to go back. I was a student, a poor student. But by the time I could afford, which I had a job, the government of Iran already knew about me and they were threatening me because I I was studying to plant a church. So I haven't been back since 79, but I've been there many times, almost every day through satellite television.

Mark Turman: [00:48:45] Right. So, uh, let's just, let's just think for a moment. Let's dream for a moment that, um, a year from now, uh, six months from now, 16 months from now, that God does a work that we would just be astounded by. Uh, not through the American military, not through, uh, Israeli ingenuity, as great as those things are in every way. But in a way that we would, we and hopefully the whole world would just stand back and say, this was what God did. This is not what any other nation did or any other person. This is what God did. If you were able to get on a plane with reasonable confidence and safety and go back to Iran, where would you first go? What would you first do?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:49:35] Great question. I've been thinking about it and we have been planning. Um, the number one, you know, go to Tehran first because that's the center. And, um, the first thing would be to gather the harvest. I was just telling our leaders, hey, the first thing we need to do, we have worked for 25 years and we have 120,000 people who have contacted us, prayed with us to receive Christ. And we know there are two to three million believers there, not connected to anybody. So the first step is to gather the harvest. These believers isolated, not connected to anyone. Many of them are connected to us. That's why I say we can plant, uh, tens, maybe hundreds of churches. So the first would be gather the harvest is already there and train them, teach them, and they already have passion. They already have passion. It's not hard to gather and teach them. They love it. So gather the, gather the believers, give them training and set them loose. You you said there are 2 million, maybe 3 million, but if because of the passion, if you train them a little bit, these 2 million could easily become 4 million in less than six months. That's just mathematics.

Mark Turman: [00:50:53] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, coming from a guy that studied AI, we're going to trust you know the math better than we do. Yeah. Well, before we close, before we go, uh, Gerald, can I just ask you to lead us in prayer for, uh, obviously for, uh, Dr. Shariat and his ministry, but even more so for the country of Iran and what God wants to redeem in these days. Could you lead us in prayer?

Gerald Griffin: [00:51:17] I will, but I also want to say, Mark, I thought you were getting ready to announce the trip of the three of us going there, when that was going to be, and I was getting pretty excited about that, but, uh, let's close in prayer.

Mark Turman: [00:51:27] All right, please do.

Gerald Griffin: [00:51:29] Heavenly Father, we are so grateful for all that you're doing in the world and we ask first of all that you'd forgive us for not recognizing that you are always at work, always, and that you are doing things that we do not understand, things that we would, uh, be absolutely, just so happy over, uh, but we don't always listen, we don't always look. But in this case, Lord, we see that you're doing something as, uh, Dr. Shariat said earlier, it's historic. Uh, and I pray that he is, uh, absolutely right. I pray it's prophetic that this is the first Islamic country that will turn to Christ and truly from there. I could just imagine this country being a beacon for Christ to all the nations around. Lord, you're able to do so much more than we ever ask. Uh, you're able to move hearts, you're able to move the hearts of the king and the and the hearts of all the people of a nation. Lord, so we just want to pray that during this time, first of all, for safety for those, Lord, who, uh, we're praying for their protection. I know that these military strikes, uh, are supposed to be going after leaders and people that could harm the people, people that are standing in the way of the freedom of the people of Iran. And so, Lord, I pray for safety there. I pray, Lord, uh, as little loss of life as possible. I want to pray right now for, um, what we were just told to pray for, and that is against the spirit of murder, against the spirit that would, um, have people just want to take life. And we understand where that, where that comes from because that comes from the enemy who is a murderer and a liar. And we know that to destroy the image of God in a person is again to take a strike against God. And so, Lord, I do pray for that. I pray for, uh, that spirit to be put down. I pray for instead there to be, uh, a spirit of acceptance and love for one another and forgiveness for one another. I pray also, Lord, for the courage that we were asked to pray for. The courage for those that are there to understand there may be a time coming very soon where they can take a stand and do something for their own good to get the freedom that they need. And we know, Lord, that the gospel can be spread anywhere, but we would love to see it open enough to where we could make a a real difference in that country, help them whatever way we can. And then of course, Lord, we pray for wisdom. We pray, Lord, that you will give us and give the people of Iran wisdom to know, uh, first of all that they need to turn to Jesus. They need to take, take responsibility for their own spiritual lives. I'm so grateful they're a spiritual people. I'm so grateful, Lord, you put that within all of us that we have a a desire to know you, to reach out to you, to connect with you. And Lord, I just, uh, this makes me think of a future day in heaven where we will all be as one and we'll be able to to worship you without fear of being allowed, without fear of being heard and seen and reported. But for now, Lord, may your kingdom, uh, continue to expand upon this earth. May you be glorified in all that is done. I pray for Dr. Sharat that you'll bless him and help him as he, uh, serves in this ministry. Uh, and I pray for Denison Ministries, Lord, as they continue to shine a light on to culture with biblical views. Lord, help us to serve you, to love you, and we ask it in Jesus name. Amen.

Mark Turman: [00:55:01] Amen. Amen. Thank you so much. Dr. Shariat, tell us real quick, where can people find more about your ministry at Iran Alive? Where can they go and find that information?

Dr. Hormoz Shariat: [00:55:12] I can go to our website, Iran Alive, IranAlive.org. Um, but there's a even, uh, simpler way. If you just text the word Iran, I R A N, to this number, 85789. So, you instead of putting somebody's phone number, just put 85789, 85789, and text the word Iran. What you get is a set of links, some links to amazing testimonies, links to sign up for our newsletter, which I encourage you to do it. The least you get, not just informed of what's happening, you will get amazing, encouraging testimonies. So sign up for our newsletter. There's links to our website and link to a donate if the Lord leads you to support this ministry.

Mark Turman: [00:55:58] Well, thank you for that. We will include all of that in our show notes and we will hope that people will, uh, pray about it and be led by the Lord to become partners with you in many, many ways, uh, starting obviously with prayer. I want to thank our audience for being a part of this conversation today. Obviously, much more to come around the story of Iran and what God will do in amazing ways. We will continue to pray for. Thank you for being a part of our audience today and we'll see you next time on Faith and Clarity.