In this episode of Faith & Clarity, Dr. Mark Turman sits down with longtime Christian media voices Dawn Rae May and Steve Hiller to talk about faith, resilience, and what it looks like to trust God when life takes an unexpected turn. Dawn and Steve share their journeys into Christian radio, the challenges of live morning shows, and the sudden job loss that forced them into a season of deep uncertainty and dependence on God.
Along the way, they reflect on grief, family, financial stress, and the spiritual practices that sustained them—journaling, stillness, prayer, and leaning into community. Dawn and Steve also discuss the transition from daily radio to launching their podcast, Dawn and Steve Plus, and why conversations around spiritual and mental health matter now more than ever. This honest and hope-filled conversation reminds listeners of the vital role of the local church and the enduring promise that God is at work, even when the path forward feels unclear.
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Topics
(0:00): Introduction
(1:40): Dawn Rae and Steve’s journey into Christian media
(6:07): Challenges of morning radio
(12:00): Life changes and termination
(15:05): Processing grief and loss
(22:50): Trusting and waiting on God
(30:20): Processing job loss together
(35:41): The importance of community
(45:03): Media as a supplement to church
(50:11): Final thoughts and encouragement
Resources
- Dawn and Steve Plus
- Walking in His Commands Lent devotional
- Ask Us Anything: [email protected]
Sign-up for a Denison Forum newsletter: DenisonForum.org/subscribe
About Dawn Rae May
Dawn has worked in Christian radio for over two decades, in three states. She loves talking about the Lord, his Word and how life intersects with both. Dawn and her husband Ben, have three grown children and live just outside of Nashville, TN.
About Steve Hiller
Steve is Director of Products for Open the Bible. He also serves as the co-host and producer of Open the Bible’s radio program. You can also hear Steve as the co-host of Treasured Truth with Pastor James Ford Jr. and Encounter the Truth with Jonathan Griffiths. Steve and his wife, Suzy, have three children, and live in Nashville, TN.
About Dr. Mark Turman
Dr. Mark Turman serves as the Executive Director of Denison Forum, where he leads with a passion for equipping believers to navigate today’s complex culture with biblical truth. He is best known as the host of the Faith & Clarity podcast and the lead pastor of the Possum Kingdom Lake Chapel, the in-person congregation of Denison Ministries.
Dr. Turman is the coauthor of Sacred Sexuality: Reclaiming God’s Design and Who Am I? What the Bible Says About Identity and Why it Matters. He earned his undergraduate degree from Howard Payne University in Brownwood, Texas, and received his Master of Divinity degree from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. He later completed his Doctor of Ministry degree at George W. Truett Theological Seminary at Baylor University in Waco.
Before joining Denison Forum, Mark served as a pastor for thirty-five years, including twenty-five years as the founding pastor of Crosspoint Church in McKinney, Texas. Mark and his high school sweetheart, Judi, married in 1986. They are proud parents of two adult children and grandparents to three grandchildren.
About Denison Forum
Denison Forum exists to thoughtfully engage the issues of our day from a biblical perspective, helping believers discern today’s news and culture through the lens of faith. Led by Dr. Jim Denison and a team of contributing writers, we offer trusted insight through The Daily Article, a daily email newsletter and podcast, along with articles, podcasts, interviews, books, and other resources. Together, these form a growing ecosystem of Christ-centered content that equips readers to respond to current events not with fear or partisanship, but with clarity, conviction, and hope. To learn more visit DenisonForum.org.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
NOTE: This transcript was AI-generated and has not been fully edited.
Mark Turman: [00:00:00] This is faith and clarity. We want to equip you to live by faith and not by fear, to find some hope beyond the headlines. I’m Mark Turman. We thank you for joining us. We’re gonna talk today about some of life’s detours and disappointments might be the best way I would frame this and how that kind of spills over and obviously engages both our faith our sense of mental wellbeing and health.
Also finding that, a sense of hope. So let’s roll. Let’s jump in. Some of my friends are joining me today. Dawn Rae, may. I guess, Dawn, I just have to ask you, I’ve never asked you this. Do you commonly get called Dawn Rae or just Dawn?
Dawn Rae May: All the combination. Yes, all
Mark Turman: the combination.
Dawn Rae May: Dawn, Dawn, Rae, what? Your mother, Dawn Rae.
May. Dawn Rae.
Mark Turman: Dawn Rae. All right.
Dawn Rae May: Yes.
Mark Turman: Dawn Rae. Dawn Rae May and Steve Hiller. I tried to figure out guys the best way to give you a short introduction. I’m just gonna say cultural, Christian, cultural commentators and media. Personalities, media experts can we put that from the buckle of the [00:01:00] Bible Belt in Tennessee?
And so we’re gonna talk with them about some of the things that they’re up to. In the area of full disclosure. Steve and Dawn and I have become friends and partners. Over the last four years they were a part of Christian Radio and you’ll learn that story in just a moment. And I got to be on their morning talk show a number of times and then things shifted.
So guys tell me a little bit about how you got into the ministry work of being in Christian media. How long have you been in Christian media? How did that all come about? And Dawn, since you’re here, we’ll just go ladies first. How about that?
Dawn Rae May: That is an honor to tell this story because when I think back, I still marvel.
When I was in elementary school, my grades were decent, but my teachers would al always say she’s a good student, but talks too much. As I go through life now and I get to speak for a living. It amazes [00:02:00] me that God can redeem anything including the gift of gab. So when I was in college at the University of Kentucky, I needed a job and I pulled out the paper, if you remember how we used to look for jobs.
And in the want ads, there was a Christian radio station. I didn’t really listen to Christian radio. I didn’t know it existed. It fit my schedule. I went in, they wanted somebody with experience, but they wanted to pay minimum wage, which at the time was $5 and 25 cents an hour. I said, you’re never gonna get anybody with experience to take the job that had that can accept that kind of money.
So you might as well gimme a chance. No harm, no foul. It doesn’t work out. And they hired me. They gave me a chance. I worked there eight months. The gentleman I worked with was from Michigan. I left because the next semester my college schedule did not fit that particular morning drive window. So I left.
I graduated school. I got my dream job with an insurance company, working claims. Go figure. It’s kind of what I knew growing up. My [00:03:00] daddy was an agent for the same company and this gentleman, I didn’t know where he went. I wanted to invite him and his wife to our wedding because I’d met my husband in that meanwhile, and.
I didn’t even know where they were. I just knew they’d gone back to Michigan out of the blue. About three months after we got married, two months after we got married, he called me at my dream job desk and said, Hey, would you come up here and work mornings? We’ll do a morning team show or morning show.
And I said, I Dawn’t think so. It’s Michigan. We’ve never left Kentucky. And so my husband, who is a relatively new believer, he said, let’s pRae about it. What? Shocking. I Dawn’t think we pRae about things. We, shocking, say, shocking. I was the
Mark Turman: mouths of
Dawn Rae May: babes, yes or no. I know, right?
Mark Turman: Yep. Yeah.
Dawn Rae May: And so we started pRaeing about it and the Lord just threw those doors open.
I went to Michigan. I worked in Christian radio there. A similar thing happened when I moved to Tennessee, and it’s just been a joy to be able to use the way God’s wired me for his purposes. I’ve loved it. [00:04:00]
Mark Turman: Yeah. That’s awesome. Yeah. Steve, how did you, how did you get LED down this road?
Steve Hiller : Yeah, so my high school had a radio station, so I got into radio just to get out of taking a poetry class so I can take a radio class.
And that was like a super easy decision on which one I’m gonna go down. If those
Mark Turman: were the only two choices, I’m going with you. Yeah.
Steve Hiller : There, there’s no brainer right there. I, so I. Took this radio class and I ended up thinking, you know, this is kind of a fun thing. Might be a hobby. My youth pastor was aware that I was doing this radio class, and he, he was like, what are you gonna do for college?
I had no idea, didn’t know what I wanted to do. So he was like, go, go to Moody Bible Institute. They’ve got a radio station there. And I just thought radio would be a little hobby. I thought whatever I end up doing, learning about the Bible is gonna be a good thing. So I’ll go to Moody for a year.
And I ended up staying at Moody for four years while I was a student there. I started working for Moody Radio in Chicago. When I [00:05:00] graduated, they offered me a full-time job, and so I stuck around. And so I’ve been dabbling in Christian radio in one way or another for over 30 years now
Dawn Rae May: with a voice like that, how can you not do radio?
Mark Turman: Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah
Steve Hiller : God
Mark Turman: gotta use throw doors open. It’s not the look. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s both the, the voice and the look. It’s just. He, he just looks like what you would expect, right?
Steve Hiller : Yeah. Which is one of the funny things when you meet people that you hear on the radio and you’ve never seen them in person, when you actually see them for the first time, most of the time it’s oh man, that is not what I expected.
Dawn Rae May: Oh, yeah.
Mark Turman: Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Hiller : I used to get, you’re a lot younger than I expect. I Dawn’t get that anymore.
Dawn Rae May: I
Mark Turman: would that
Dawn Rae May: taller and long hair.
Steve Hiller : Yeah.
Mark Turman: Yes. Yeah, there is that. And I’ve had the, you know, so I’ve, I stepped out of pastoring churches for 35 years to start podcasting four years ago. This is my fifth year as a quote unquote podcaster. But I’ve had this weird experience of going somewhere. [00:06:00] And I’ll be walking down the hall talking to somebody and somebody else will say, wait, it’s the voice.
I know that voice.
Dawn Rae May: Yes.
Mark Turman: Yep. I’m like, O, okay, that’s, I hadn’t really expected that but hey, I do wanna say thank y’all for being a part of the, really significant and I would say challenging work of just doing morning radio talk shows. Y’all can talk about if you want to at some point, a little bit of the rigor of that schedule.
But my wife and I wake up every day to the same talk show here in the Dallas area. And it’s, it’s like one of our first early connection points when we wake up. It’s okay, we’re gonna listen. To these guys on this morning show for at least six minutes before we confront the day. And it’s just a part of how we do it.
And just having a little bit of a sense of what you guys went through and what those people go through to be there kind of early in the morning. It’s, it is a really [00:07:00] significant moment, I would say. Is that a fair way to put it?
Steve Hiller : Yeah, it, it is a lifestyle adjustment to do morning radio. When I met my, my wife, I was not doing live radio.
I was working in media ministry. So when I got approached about moving to Tennessee and doing the morning show with Dawn I’m turned to my wife and said, this is gonna be like a massive life change. For us all. I mean, yes, you guys are gonna be moving, we’re, we’re gonna move states, but if we do this, this is gonna upend life as we know it.
I’m gonna be going to bed early if we wanna have any sort of time together as a family, you guys are probably gonna have to get up at least a little bit earlier than they used to so that, you know, the, the, the kids will go to bed at a reasonable time and, and we can actually have time to talk to, to each other.
Otherwise we’re just gonna be like ships passing in the night. And so it was a pretty significant lifestyle change, having to get [00:08:00] up to an alarm at three 30 every morning. Is no fun.
Dawn Rae May: Correct.
Steve Hiller : Once you hit the air, you’re in the studio and, and the mics are hot. That, that was fun.
Dawn Rae May: Yep.
Steve Hiller : Most of the time that was a blast, but that alarm clock was a beast.
Dawn Rae May: Nasty. Just nasty. And our,
Mark Turman: yeah. It, and it just having heard y’all describe it a little bit, it, it kind of reminds me of some of what nobody prepared me for when I felt called into local church ministry, which is your schedule. Particularly your weekend and your Sunday schedule for almost, you know, 50, you know, 49, 50 weeks out of the year.
Your schedule is gonna be different from most other people because most other people Dawn’t go to church every single Sunday. Yeah. Yep. And when I, and when I got into ministry, it was not just Sunday morning, it was an all day affair because, you know, you had evening services and. And you’re just, you find yourself.
I, I can’t really plan anything big on Sunday night. I gotta be at my best on Sunday morning. [00:09:00] Yeah. You know, on Saturday night. And so you’re like my weekend never, you know, for 35 years, my weekend never worked like anybody else’s weekend.
And so you kind of felt like you were off.
Pace with the rest of the world is, yeah. So Dawn, you were gonna say something, you were gonna add
Dawn Rae May: something to that you do. Yeah. I in our world, because I’m mom, it put a lot on my husband, Ben. Yeah. He had to get the kids up and ready for school. He had to get them out the door. Lunch is packed and I served in that capacity for seven years.
Then I took a two year break where I just did fill in work for the same station that I left. But I went to the kid’s school. So then those two, two and a half years, I got to do all that again. But when the Lord called me back into the, again, the same station in a full-time capacity, I had to go to the family and say, listen, if you, we all know what this is.
If I’m going, we all have to be called, it can’t just be me because it means Ben’s back on the [00:10:00]point position. In the mornings. The kids have to adjust again because Yes. I mean, and I, the older I get, the more imp. Emphatic I had to be about my bedtime because I couldn’t function the next day and I, I was no good for anyone if I didn’t get enough rest.
So yes, it does. Yeah, it shifts everything. And yet, if you know the Lord’s called you to it, you want to make that adjustment. So yeah. But kudos to my husband who did this for. 17 years.
Steve Hiller : Yeah. You
Dawn Rae May: basically,
Steve Hiller : you got a good one.
Dawn Rae May: Yeah. Yes, I do. I do.
Mark Turman: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like Steve, you do as well, and Susie and, and just and hey, it’s a good, it’s a good moment for us to just give a shout out of appreciation to all those people who work these kind of odd situations. It certainly happens with nurses and policemen and firemen and a whole bunch of other people who. We are just grateful to have them, you know, available all the time.
But that means some people have to stay up all night and and live That’s right. Live [00:11:00] by weird schedules. And that can be a unique challenge in a calling. If I understand this right, you guys started doing morning radio together around 2020, is that right? Somewhere. It
Steve Hiller : was,
Mark Turman: yeah. Time when y’all started working together,
Steve Hiller : right.
As COVID was bursting out the scene. They decided that was a great time to launch a new morning show. So yeah, we started working together. I think that’s in the works though. Before it, it was in the works before that, but our first show together was like the first Monday of April, 2020. Yes.
Mark Turman: Yeah.
Yeah. Wow. Wow. Golly. That’d be what, two or three weeks after COVID really becomes. Dominant in America. Yep.
Steve Hiller : Yeah, it was, it was funny. I accepted the job, mark, and then there was this, Hey, everybody, go home because we need to flatten the curve. And I thought, oh boy am I still gonna have a job after this?
And thankfully they said, yes, come on down, and, and we’re gonna continue this. But yeah, that I will always remember when we started the show because those two massive events in my life collided at the same time. Mm.
Mark Turman: Wow. Wow. That’s a, that’s a big [00:12:00] deal. So anyway, you guys started doing morning radio and that was going, that’s where we intersected and got to do some conversations with y’all in that environment.
But then about 17 months or so ago life took a pretty hard turn and a pretty big event. So tell us what happened in late August of 2024. They’re looking at each other,
Steve Hiller : laughing ladies first.
Mark Turman: They’re looking at each other.
Dawn Rae May: It’s. Case in point. I was just talking to the Lord about it this morning.
And here we are, like you said, so many months later. And when those emotions rise I have to take ’em back to him because you think that there’s a, there’s like a, a time expiration on grief and oftentimes I think, depending on the level of grief that you experience at a certain situation, you think, why aren’t you over this?
Steve Hiller : But what caused the grief? [00:13:00]
Dawn Rae May: So we were told out of left field, we got off the air on a Friday, going into a holiday weekend, labor Day weekend. And we were asked to step out of the studio and we were told that was the last morning show. You guys are gonna do.
Mark Turman: Wow.
Dawn Rae May: And Mark, I remember sitting there and like my face starts twitching in involuntarily, like this cheek just starts vibrating and I feel like I’m in another world.
I’m like, what is happening right now? That’s what I said. Yeah.
Steve Hiller : It’s kind of like an out, out of body thing,
Dawn Rae May: isn’t it? It was, yeah. It was just crazy and we just sat there in the silence as we tried to comprehend the reality that we were being given and, there’s a lot you can say. I Dawn’t know how much of it’s helpful, but it’s just that shock and.
Steve Hiller : There’s a lot of how
Dawn Rae May: much to fill in the
Steve Hiller : worst. What is next? What does this mean? Yeah. What is this going to do for our families, you [00:14:00] know? I, my wife is a, a stay at home homeschool mom, and so I now have to go home and say, Hey you know, our primary income source, our, where we get our insurance.
Yeah. All these things that’s Dawne. And you know, there’s a lot of, okay, now what?
And then one of the other things that, you know, the, the, and I think everybody probably goes through an element of this when, when you lose a job but there’s an element of when you do a job in public that if you are let go, there’s a, an element of what did I.
Do wrong. I, I didn’t do anything technically wrong, therefore, they must not like me.
Dawn Rae May: Hmm.
Steve Hiller : And there’s an an element of attack of identity and self-worth, if you will.
Dawn Rae May: Sure.
Steve Hiller : Because if I didn’t do anything quote unquote wrong and you’re being let go for someone else, then you’re not [00:15:00] liked. They are.
And so there’s an interesting kind of wrestling with some of that too.
Mark Turman: Yeah. And it just, so let me, let me just kind of, frame this a little bit for our audience. We talked I mean, there was an announcement that came via email, which was shocking on my end in and of itself. But the, we’ll, we’ll get into how God has and is redeeming this situation for you guys.
And, but even just bringing up the topic I think our audience probably can sense some sense of. Hey, this is, this is still a somewhat raw nerve in situation as it should be. But I want, here’s also what I wanna add to the conversation. So you and I the three of us planned this conversation some months ago.
Okay. To, because I heard you guys talking about this, continuing to process this talk about how God’s redeeming this, but I want y’all to know we’re we’re recording on a Wednesday. On Monday. One of my closest friends, I’m in a, a small group of guys with him he sends a text at nine in [00:16:00] the morning.
Got fired today.
Steve Hiller : Oh.
Mark Turman: And just lays it out there as a text. Okay. And as a pastor I, I have at times over my career feared termination. I’ve never experienced per termination, but I have feared it at significant moments, even in the context of a church. One of my pet statements is. People generally believe in church and ministry, nobody ought to ever get fired.
That’s kind of, it’s like getting fired is what happens in the big, bad, evil world. It never happens in the Christian world, at least. A lot of people think that, okay that’s not true, but that’s what a lot of people think. Okay. So that happens. But I have been the pastor to a number of people over the years.
And I have walked with them through their experience of termination. And I have seen how profound it can be in a person’s life and how challenging it can be to their faith. I wonder if you guys could help frame us in, in terms [00:17:00] of how you process this. I have another really close friend in this, in this same guys group.
Who said he had a, A boss early on, and I think this boss fired him who said, you know what? Everybody ought to be fired at least once because you learn a lot of good things. I’m not sure anybody believes that, that
Dawn Rae May: all
Steve Hiller : of him,
Mark Turman: yeah. But yeah. But that’s one. That’s just one perspective. So try to help us, help our audience frame this is this.
Do you, would you possibly compare this to like a cancer diagnosis, to a car wreck, to your house burning down? How do you frame the, the kind of s sc scope and scale of what this experience has been like so far?
Steve Hiller : You wanna go first or you want me to
Dawn Rae May: I thought we were gonna say it at the same time.
Steve Hiller : Oh, okay.
Dawn Rae May: Oh, I suspect we think the same, but maybe not death. To me, it was a death. Okay, because of that was a calling on my life. [00:18:00] Gave everything I, I’m a, I’m, the way I’m wired is I’m an all or nothing. If I believe in what I’m doing, if I’m called, if you’ve asked of me certain things, I’m there. I will show up, I will suit up and, and I will be loyal to the very end.
So when you rip that away from me. That relationship And Mark, there are so many things about the way it was all handled that were that that precluded and prevented that the ongoing relationships. And so all of that in a moment was ripped away. And that’s where, and this is, you know, this is my experience from my perspective, but this is how it felt.
And then you have to process that. Everything you’ve known for the last 17 years in that quick is Dawne, which is a little bit of a parallel to a death. When you lose someone that you love, someone [00:19:00] important to you, it can change in that moment. And so for me, I think that’s why the grief process is still ongoing in some respects is not every day, but when it does come up, like I mentioned earlier, I have to go back to the Lord because it’s that.
Sadness Again, sometimes it’s the anger that I have to say, okay, here it is.
Mark Turman: Yeah.
Steve Hiller : Yeah. And, and I think, I feel a lot of that, I’m not sure to the same degree.
That, that you do. And maybe part of that is because this actually was the second time that happened to me with this organization. And so when, which, right?
Yeah. And there was a 10 year gap between the two. The first time it it happened was 2010, and there was the trickle down effect of the oh eight housing crisis bubble burst. What that did to the economy and all that, and the looking at the finances, or we need to do a [00:20:00] restructure. And so I didn’t fit into the restructure, but it was handled really well.
Left on great terms. I mean, good enough that 10 years later they reached out and said, Hey, would you ever consider coming back? And I did. And this was handled differently though. But I, I say all that to say I walked in without rose colored glasses on. It, it was funny as I was going through the interview process and my wife and I were pRaeing about doing, accepting the job, moving to Tennessee and all of that, she actually stopped in the kitchen one day, turned to, and looked at me and said, do you want this job?
And I said, I do, but I also kind of am aware of what I’m walking into. And so I think I, I have a little bit more of a guarded heart.
Dawn Rae May: Yeah.
Steve Hiller : Than, than you did.
So it, it did still hurt. All those things that I said a few moments ago. Absolutely true. There’s an element of death, a loss. But, but to me, is [00:21:00] it like cancer?
No. Is it like the death of, you know, someone really close to me? No. It was loss of a job, attack of identity, all those things that, that hurts. You have to wrestle through a lot of that, but, it’s massively significant because it, it, it really does force you to kind of wrestle with, all right, God, now what kind of stuff.
But I wouldn’t put it quite on the level of, of cancer. Death, death and cancer. Okay. Yeah. Yeah,
Mark Turman: yeah. And it does, it does. You know, one of the things hopefully comes out of this part of the conversation is, is that people, since they have permission to grieve in their unique way Yeah. When they experience loss and random disappointment and, you know, some of these big blows, especially that come, but, you know, reverencing, the friend that I mentioned.
You know, this is, you know, he, he’s just been in an industry and in a career path where, you know, he described it to me one time as riding the lightning. And he’s been in this situation before. But it’s, it’s [00:22:00] pretty industry common in the, in the world that he lives in. But he’s also at a much different place.
You know, how old you are, what your yeah. Financial responsibilities are. All kinds of things impact how this might impact you especially for the first time or if it’s not the first time that you’re going through something like this. Okay. 17, 18 months. Dawn, you mentioned a moment ago, it’s not every day doesn’t, this doesn’t kind of slap you in the face every day.
Anything about just any pivot points over the last 17 months that you’d like to call out? Say, okay. You know, at this point, six weeks, in, six days, in six months later there was this pivot. Anything like that that comes to mind?
Dawn Rae May: So our journeys have been different over the last 17, 18 months. And I laugh because the Lord has had me until about two months ago.
He’s had me be still. And [00:23:00] you think that being still and trusting and waiting is I, I won’t say easy. I Dawn’t think anybody thinks it’s easy, but when you’re left there for. 14 months and you still have a mortgage to pay. And at the ti you know, kids that they’re all emancipated now, but kids that are depending on you and the bills that you have that were based on double income waiting is, is really cha it’s, it’s a verb.
It’s a verb.
Mark Turman: Yeah.
Dawn Rae May: And I have not always been a journaler, but because I want to see how God has led us through this season in our family. I started journaling through this whole process and one, one pRaeer that has been consistent is, Lord, I believe help my unbelief. We faced selling the house. It’s his house, it’s the Lord’s house, whatever he wants to do.
But I kept feeling the restraint by the Holy Spirit saying, no, not right now. And I’m like, okay, but the [00:24:00] mortgage is due. You know this, these constant conversations right, of I know you know better than I know, help my unbelief because I do believe this is what you’re calling me to. I also knew that it was a season and when it changed, I sensed it was gonna change pretty radically.
But I had to learn to be still because I was used to going and getting up at three 30 in the morning and going and doing this radio show and then getting ready for the next day. And you know, there was the rhythm that you understood. And to take all of that and shift it so drastically. Was an adjustment, but I also knew I didn’t wanna waste that season because when it came to an end, I didn’t wanna go, oh, that’s what you were trying to do.
I wish I would’ve sat still and trusted you through that. I, I wanted to be able to come out on the other end and go, Lord, the season you had, I cooperated with you so that you could teach me what you wanted me to know. And I will say that it’s, I’m a lot quicker to. Hear him [00:25:00] say when he says, wait. Because, you know, part of it, mark, is you’re thinking is that you like, are you, am I making this up?
But it was so strong and Ben and I would talk about it and, and about the time he may have a question or I may have a question. We’d hear the word being taught or preached and or a song sung that reminded us. Hey, I’ve got this. You trust me, eyes up here. And Ben would look at me and he’d just kind of chuck on and go, guess we got our answer?
I’m like, yep. So we still wait until he moves and he has, yeah. But that season, I, I mean, I, as much as I remember what, what happened on August 30th, I’m remembering the season that the Lord’s walked me through.
Mark Turman: Yeah, it sounds, it sounds like you’re describing something that the Lord pointed out to me just recently out of the Christmas story, which is you, you know, we read about Jesus’ birth in Matthew one and two as a baby, and and we read this interesting deal that Joseph gets [00:26:00] led by a series of four dreams.
The first one being, Hey, I know you think that this is crazy, but calm down and wait on me and go ahead and marry Mary. And become the father of the earthly father of Jesus. The second dream is get up and get outta here. The baby is in danger. Go to Egypt and God tells him in that dream, go until it’s safe.
And I’ll tell you when, basically, in a very loose mark term and paraphrase. But it becomes a temporary assignment of waiting and. We Dawn’t know if that turned out to be a couple of months or a couple of years. But number one, he’s an Israelite. He probably doesn’t want to go to Egypt.
Steve Hiller : Yeah.
Mark Turman: But he has to make the decision that he will trust God, that he will wait until further instructions come and he has no idea how long that’s gonna be.
And it, [00:27:00] and it just becomes this very interesting thing. But he knew. He knew in the revelation it was a temporary assignment and it just kind of confronted me that if we have some sense that, that a season of that is approaching us or starting for us, we can either look at it as something that we’re just gonna experience in anguish or we can see it as an adventure That because God knew that there were all these other pieces that had to be moved around for Joseph and Mary and the, and the baby Jesus, to be safe and.
He needed to put them in a place while he could move all these other pieces around, right? And, and Dawn, I, I Dawn’t wanna put you on the spot, but one of the ways God seems to have worked in this, that you shared with me was that there was a kind of a carve out here for you to have time with your mom.
Can you talk a little bit about that? A little bit?
Dawn Rae May: As you were talking and I was remembering just the goodness of the season. My mom lives about 220 miles away, so it’s not a super quick trip to [00:28:00] get to her. And she’s been, her health had been failing and dementia was part of the process. She had fallen and had eight fractures back in 2021, so it was just.
This journey and I would need to get up there, want to get up there to spend time with her. But this last year, of course, the decline because she went home to be with the Lord on September the ninth, and there were many calls of, Hey, she’s taking a turn. You better get up here. And to not have employment to where I had to run outta the studio.
That happened with the other parent. I had to one day. It was in 2020, so it wasn’t that. Long after you guys had moved here?
Mark Turman: Yeah.
Dawn Rae May: And I couldn’t get ahold of a parent and he was in the hospital having a stroke, so I was like, gotta go with mom. The journey was, I could get there when I needed to.
Things would have to be changed. That’s fine. There was no employer, there was no but team members depending on [00:29:00] me and. Every step of the way, especially toward the end. That last 30 to 45 days, I was up there a lot. You were there
Steve Hiller : a lot. Yeah.
Dawn Rae May: And it, it’s about a three hour, 45 minute drive to, to get there and then to sit with her and be able to be available.
That was unbelievable to me how the Lord carved out that time. All the while, you know, he is got purpose and you’re trying to cooperate with that purpose, like you said, the adventure of it all. But oftentimes we have to wait till we can look in the rear mirror and see the goodness of his hand. And so I was a, a bit aware of it as I went through the process, but to get to where mom went home and go, wow, wow.
Thank you Lord, for giving me this space and taking care of things along the way that, you know, again, better than we know but to have those precious times and be with her when she stepped into the arms of Jesus. Priceless.
Mark Turman: Yeah,
Dawn Rae May: just priceless. Yeah.
Mark Turman: Yeah. Just what a gift, [00:30:00] what a, what a gift. To be
Dawn Rae May: absolutely
Mark Turman: freed up for a season to be able to do that.
And, you know, we, we have a long conversation about the privilege and challenge of walking family and friends, parents, particularly to Heaven’s Gate. It just is a, yeah. A big sacred and oftentimes hard thing to do, obviously. Steve, I want to come back to you for just a second and talk again about just kind of the differences of the way people experience and process something like losing a job.
It was not just the two of you, but also your producer. A great guy by the name of Briggs. And I just want you to know I’m gonna steal Briggs one way or another because. Every podcast should have somebody with a British accent. And so it’s
Steve Hiller : true. That’s
Mark Turman: true. Yes, it’s true. Yeah. I, I Dawn’t you can have him in the off.
I Dawn’t, yeah. I have no idea how smart Briggs is. I think he’s probably exceptionally smart, but I Dawn’t care as long as you have a British accent, because people will listen. Okay.
Steve Hiller : That’s
Mark Turman: true. But Briggs Briggs experienced this in his [00:31:00] own way. So kind of talk a little bit about. Maybe how his perspective is even a little bit different from what the two of you have experienced.
And then talk a little bit even both of you about what the uniqueness is, the uniqueness of going through this together and what that has meant for each of you to go through this, the three of you being in this. In this storm together. So how does it, how did it impact Briggs and how has it been doing this together?
Steve Hiller : I think it impacted him in, in some of the same ways that, that it did me, I mean, their family, they’re also a, a homeschool family where his wife is teaching their two kids and, you know, he was the, the primary provider for their family. And all of a sudden the most significant part of the income and benefits and, and all of that goes away.
So there’s, there’s wrestling with that. But there’s also. A [00:32:00] spiritual maturity and depth to him where he knows like God is sovereign over all. This didn’t catch him by surprise and so Lord, now what’s next? What, how are you redirecting? And he’s got a very entrepreneurial spirit. And so this is for him a season of.
Lord, let’s, do you want me to try this? Should we do this? Let’s go after that. He’d been involved in the, the film world, Christian film and, and doing a lot of that when he lived in the United Kingdom. And so what does that look like to bring much of that over here to the United States and to pursue that here in this country?
And it, it’s been kind of an adventure, I think, for him. But, you know, I think I, I can safely say similar to both Dawn and I like. There’s been a dependence upon God to provide what their family needs. And at the same time an element of, alright, let’s go on this adventure with the [00:33:00] Lord and see what he does with it.
I dunno. Did, did, did I cover that?
Dawn Rae May: Yes.
Steve Hiller : Reasonably well. Okay.
Dawn Rae May: Yes. And and he’d been with the team a couple of years at that point.
Steve Hiller : Yeah,
Dawn Rae May: he had his green card. So that had been accomplished, which was really cool. And in this season, several people have been asking him for years to do a podcast. Yeah. And he’d kind of put it off and put it off and he felt the Lord keep nudging him.
Now he had some margin. To start that. So he too has a podcast. Israel Matters and very passionate about things that are going on. You mentioned you Dawn’t know if he’s Intel you know how smart he is, dude, like
Steve Hiller : ridiculously smart.
Dawn Rae May: Yeah. This one’s smart off
Steve Hiller : the chart. Yeah,
Dawn Rae May: he really is. But for him to still be part of the team really is, a blessing for us because he’s familiar and just, it was seamless in some ways to go into the podcast world. But yeah, he, he really, I think longevity had something to [00:34:00] do with the way you process it too, and the whole male female thing. I’m sure that’s part of it as far as differences. Yeah. But you know, he had two years, you were in for about four.
A little over four, four and a half when, when it changed and then, yeah, I’d had a few more years in that building.
Steve Hiller : Yeah. And you, you talked about going through this as a team. I think that’s one of the things that has been nice is as, as we’ve walked through this, there’ve been other people that understand.
You know, there, there was a genuine friendship and because not everybody you work with, are you good friends with. But our team, we really were good friends. And so as, as we process this, you know, with each other, you’re like, okay, you get it. We’re, we’re doing this together. And then our families too.
And I think one of the things that to me has really stood out about and, and part of the reason that we’ve launched the podcast on Steve Plus and other things is because. Our spouses recognized [00:35:00] that. And as we were pRaeing through, okay, what’s next? And are we gonna continue to work together in, in some sort of way or not?
Or is God, you know, separating the team or we’re all gonna go our different directions? Not only did the three of us feel like, no, I Dawn’t think we’re Dawne, but Brigg’s wife, Melissa, my wife Susie and Dawn’s husband, Ben, were all like, no you guys got something special that God did. He brought you together for a reason and so keep going.
It might look different, different place, different platform, different whatever, but keep going. And so that I, I think, has been a gift huge from God to, you know, have a team who can walk some of this road together.
Dawn Rae May: Yeah.
Mark Turman: Yeah. And that’s, you know, and that’s just one of those fundamentals about faith that we, we sometimes need to be reminded of, right?
Whether, whether it’s in the, the great team relationships that y’all have that then extend out to your families. To your spouses whenever you go through hard times there is a lesson about circling the faith wagons, and it [00:36:00] might be in y like in y’all’s case, the people that you work with and that you’re going, you know, you’ve been thrown into this river together, but no matter what it is, you know, what I tell people is when, when you get confronted with something like this is okay, who’s gonna be your team?
Who’s gonna be in your circle? And you Dawn’t need 30 people in your circle. It’s fine if you have that many, but you know what? Six or eight people that can become your immediate intense pRaeer partners and a safe harbor for you to scream with and a whole bunch of other stuff. You need to find those people in the middle of the storm because they’re gonna help you navigate this storm well yeah, with, with the presence of God and that type of thing.
Decide who your circle’s gonna be and and Dawn’t let it be one, and Dawn’t let it be only your spouse. I would say that you gotta have your spouse in it, but it’s gonna help you and your spouse if you put two or four. Six more people in that circle with you. Say, Hey, come ride this boat [00:37:00] with me because I, I’m gonna need some people to help me row.
Yeah. For a while. Said.
Steve Hiller : Yep.
Mark Turman: And, and that’s gonna be a big deal. So I caught up with you guys 12 months after you were pushed out of this environment and listen to some really profound things about how God had helped you process. Our mutual friend Jim Denison, is known for this great statement.
God redeems, all that he allows. What else about how God has, has redeemed this that you would want to talk about? How, how has God moved the story of the two of you forward?
Dawn Rae May: Oh, that’s so big.
Steve Hiller : Yeah.
Dawn Rae May: That’s so big. We Dawn’t have that much.
Mark Turman: There’s a podcast now we gotta, somewhere we, yeah, we’ve gone from Dawn and Steve in the morning to Dawn and Steve Plus, which I gotta, I just have to say, why is it Dawn and Steve plus.
Dawn Rae May: That’s a really good question. We were kicking around one day, Briggs and Hiller. We, so Steven Briggs, his name is Steve. Steve Hiller. [00:38:00] So everybody has to kind of have, you know, an a Yeah. Specific title. So Briggs and Hiller and I were sitting around one day and we were trying to figure out what the name of the podcast would be.
And just different things. Nothing was sticking, you know, do you do faith and clarity? Do you do something? But we were known by our names when we did the morning shows. So we were trying to work that out a little bit. Bless him. Bricks goes. What about Dawn plus Steve? And we’re like, mm, no. That, no, that does not communicate the way we wanna communicate.
And so we were still just kind of working around and I, I kind of was playing with it in my head. I’m like, Dawn and Steve plus. Dawnna, Steve Plus, mark Truman, Dawn and Steve, plus whoever our guest is. Dawnna. Steve Plus mental health. The Dawnna, Steve plus the Bible like it. It just opens itself up to include whomever is going to join the show.
And it includes the audience. Whoever’s [00:39:00] listening. And relational connection is so important, and we want our listeners to know that we want to see them, we want to engage. So that plus seemed to be an open invitation.
Mark Turman: Yeah. Yeah. Having having gone through this experience with my team last year and having spent not just a few days or a few weeks, but several months trying to figure out a good name for a podcast, I have some appreciation for what that challenge is like.
So tell us about the podcast and tell us what you guys are talking about. I’ve seen recently you’ve been talking a lot about health both spiritual, mental, and physical health. Talk a little bit about how you guys are learning in that space.
Steve Hiller : Yeah, I think the two bigger spaces for me would be the mental health, spiritual health physical health that, that’s all over the map in terms of trying to pursue that.
It but I, one of the things that I, I think is [00:40:00] so important for us to understand as believers, mark is something that you, you touched on a moment ago, and that is. Having people in our lives, having community to walk through. Our, our lives with our Christian faith with. And I think to try and do that in isolation is a challenge.
But every, all these relationships that we have all have at least some element of potential dysfunction and fracture and, and, and things. Not to mention our own baggage that we bring into different scenarios. So I think if we’re going to grow in spiritual health. Then growing in mental health right alongside that is a huge thing.
Those two things I think, are so intertwined that to only focus on one without the other is a bit of a disservice. And so we do for the, for the most part, the podcast does focus on growing spiritually, growing mentally. And spending time in the [00:41:00] word and what does God say? And then taking those thoughts captive and running our, our mental health through the grid in the lens of scripture and understanding why our bodies do what they do and why our brains do what they do, and how that is, you know, a natural thing to be happening because of what we have walked through and what does God say about that.
And then to try and do that without community. Is really, really hard. I think God gave us the body of Christ and friends and and community so that we can walk that out and encourage each other in that.
Mark Turman: Yeah. Dawn, you wanna add to that at all?
Dawn Rae May: No, I think he, you did a beautiful job. That is a great explanation.
It, it was interesting to go from radio to podcast. You would think it would be seamless.
Steve Hiller : Oh, it’s different.
Dawn Rae May: It is so different. It, it has taken us a year to land on where our emphasis should be. And Briggs again spoke into this situation where he said one day when [00:42:00] you talk about the gospel. Fa Steve’s faith is face, face lights up.
And when you talk about mental health, your face lights up and together you have these great conversations about both because obviously we love both. And so that’s where we should put our emphasis on the things that. The Lord uses to light your fires. And that’s kind of how we finally got to a focus, because we kind of tried to take the morning show into the podcast world.
And unless you’re gonna do that live, it does not translate.
Steve Hiller : It does not work well. No,
Dawn Rae May: no.
Mark Turman: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you and I could have a conversation just about that because I walked into this world thinking that it might be like that. All right. One of you tell me the single. Biggest difference between doing live morning show, radio and doing podcasts is what?
What’s the one biggest first? This is different.
Steve Hiller : Not bound by a clock. [00:43:00] So when you’re doing a morning show, there’s lots of elements. You, you have a, a clock that’s structured. You talk for four and a half minutes, and then you go to a song, and then you do this, and then you do that, and then there’s a break, and then there’s this thing and whatever.
And you, you have this clock that you have to follow hour after hour after hour with podcast. You throw it out the window. And you just follow the conversation wherever it goes. And you can go down the rabbit holes and you can go off on this tangent or trail and you’re not, you know, okay, we, we have to make sure we hit this at this time and this at this time and this at this time.
So to me that is the biggest. There are other differences, but that is the biggest one.
Mark Turman: Yeah. Yeah. That’s a, a, a great great call out. And you know, what I would tell people is, is in my own spiritual development and in my own mental health so much of that has happened significantly through just engaging the Bible and learning everything.
I hope God wants to teach me about pRaeer, but so [00:44:00] much of discipleship has happened for me. Just talking to people like we’ve been talking to people for the last few minutes. And often, you know, just like in Jesus’s world, over a, over a meal or over a good cup of coffee a lot of what I learn or how I learn and how God has grown me is just.
Sitting around with good, godly people and having good, healthy conversation. And I think that’s where both of our podcasts are trying to drive to because it’s, you know, for us it’s not, yes, we wanna talk about what’s going on in the culture, what are the big movements and issues going on in the, in the culture and in our society.
But we wanna do that from a biblical lens that leads us back to the person of Christ and back to becoming the people that Christ wants us. To become. And so anyway being respectful of people’s time a little bit today got, got, got a chance for one more question that I’d like you to both react to people who have been working in Christian media for a [00:45:00] long time and, and do a really good job with it.
How can, what you and I do, the podcasts that we have, that type of thing, how can this be a discipleship partner with the local church? Because one of the things I always fear in podcast world is that person who says, you know what? I believe in Jesus. I’ve got my Bible. I got a couple of friends and my family, and oh, by the way, I also listened to some really good media.
I, why would I go to church? How do you guys think about that question?
Steve Hiller : Okay, so I, I think
Dawn Rae May: media, I mean, I have, but I just think Go for it. Yeah.
Steve Hiller : I, I, I think media
Mark Turman: people that are listening to this podcast need to go find it on YouTube so they can see the interaction between y’all in facial expressions.
Dawn Rae May: It is true.
Steve Hiller : I, I think whether it’s Christian radio, Christian television, podcasts, whatever those things are, [00:46:00] those are phenomenal supplements. I think that God has instituted the church. He has given us the church as the bride of Christ. That is his primary means I think of forming community and discipleship and teaching and everything.
I mean, there is only one bride of Christ, the local ch the, the church. There can be a lot of bridesmaids. In, in a sense, right? The Christian radio, bible teaching programs and podcasts and television and apps and all these things. I, I, in my mind, I kind of picture them as maybe the bridesmaids.
Mark Turman: Hmm.
Steve Hiller : But there’s only one bride.
That’s the local church and that’s where we do life, as cheesy as that phrase may sound, where we do life with other people. We look ’em in the eye. We worship together, we pRae for each other. It is where we get to engage with people who’ve got skin on. I can listen to your podcast, mark, I’ve known you for years.[00:47:00]
We have actually never. Shook hands met face to face, right? Yep. That’s a different level of relationship, and so I think the, the unity that God desires for the body of Christ happens in the local church.
Dawn Rae May: I also think there, it’s a matter of humbling yourself too to the instruction of the Lord because he said, Dawn’t forsake the assembly of the Saints.
And he’s called us into fellowship. He’s called us into this messy life together to figure out how to follow him, how to seek him first, his kingdom and his righteousness, and spur one another on love and good works. And I know you can do that outside of the church walls. There is something though that he has instituted as the church where our human nature says, nah, I Dawn’t need it.
There’s just a bunch of hypocrites in there. I can do bad all by myself. All true. Then go back to the scriptures and there’s instruction there that we are to be part of a local body. And so then you’re [00:48:00] faced with, am I gonna do it my way? Am I gonna follow what the Lord’s instructed me to do? So then it becomes a matter of, are we gonna humbly submit ourselves to what he’s telling us, or are we going to, in a sense, rebel and say, Nope, I’m good.
I got this.
Mark Turman: Yeah. I’ll, I’ll find a better way than what God’s telling me in his word. That’s always a dangerous direction to take. But yeah, Steve, I love the metaphor. There are a lot of bridesmaids and a lot of groomsmen. We could say maybe.
Dawn Rae May: Yeah.
Mark Turman: A lot of bridesmaids, a lot of groomsmen, and but there’s only one bride and there’s only one group and.
And that’s one of the things that encourages me. You know, I, I’m thrilled to be able to do things like this conversation and to be able to use the technology that God’s allowed us to have. You know, I, how else would I have ever had an opportunity to meet you guys and have more than one conversation?
I’m thrilled about that. But, you know, with all the world of AI and technology and all of [00:49:00]that, nothing will ever substitute for being together. The virtual world will never, ever become better than the actual world. And as much as we would wanna say to all of our audiences, Hey, yeah, we hope you’ll listen to our podcast.
We hope you’ll listen to Dawn and Steve Plus, and to faith and clarity and to other great, great resources. We always would cheer for that. But if it’s between that and getting in the car and going down to your local church that teaches and preaches the Bible and that invites people into meaningful relationships, that they can do life together.
Always choose the bride over the brides maid or over the groomsman. Always.
Dawn Rae May: Always.
Mark Turman: Yep. And we just want to come alongside that. And I, I try to say that every time I get to talk to a pastor, I’m like, I want to try to say what you would say to your people. If you had a few minutes with them on a Thursday, I, I would hopefully want to represent you well into their [00:50:00]journey of faith and discipleship and walking with Christ.
The way you would, um mm-hmm. And, but we Dawn’t wanna replace you in, in, we just want to come along and try to supplement and strengthen you. Just like Steve you were describing. Guys, thank you for the conversation. We got a lot more we could talk about. Maybe we will get to talk about in future conversations, either here on Faith and Clarity or Dawn and Steve Plus, and we would encourage people to go find that you guys are available, I’m sure, on all the podcast platforms, right?
Steve Hiller : Yep.
Dawn Rae May: Yes sir.
Steve Hiller : We sure are.
Mark Turman: All right. Good deal. And if you are ever just wandering around in the area of Nashville, keep your eyes open. You may bump into Dawn or Steve or Briggs for that matter. And you’ll be greatly blessed if you do. Thanks to our audience for following us today. And if this has been a blessing to you please rate review us, share this with your friends and family.
If you wanna know more about Denison Forum and more resources, you can find [00:51:00][email protected]. Thank you for supporting ministries like ours, both Dennis and Forum, and Dawn and Steve. Plus, we are listener supported and we are grateful that you help us to do what we get to do in the Kingdom of God.
We’ll see you next time on Faith and Clarity.
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