How should Christians engage in a polarized society?

Mark Turman: [00:00:03] From Denison Forum, this is Faith & Clarity. I'm Mark Turman, your host for today's conversation. Let me remind you that our goal at Faith & Clarity and Denison Forum is to equip you to live by faith in Jesus Christ and not by fear. Philippians 1:27 may be familiar to you. It says this, just one thing, as citizens of heaven, live your life worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then whether I come to see you or I am absent, I will hear about you that you are standing firm in one spirit, in one accord, contending together for the faith of the gospel, not being afraid of any of your opponents. As we approach our 250th anniversary as a country, a lot feels very far away from what the Apostle Paul was inspired to write to the Philippian believers about standing firm together. And so we want to have a conversation today about what that might look like in a better way. Uh, let me tell you a little story. I recently attended a lecture here in the Dallas area by an attorney and an author named Talmadge Boston, which sounds like, uh, one of the founding fathers, but he is a current author here in the Dallas area. He discussed the leadership styles of eight of our greatest presidents. When he got to Thomas Jefferson, he noted that Jefferson was not a particularly good public speaker, but his persuasive style was exercised mostly through building relationships with others in small groups, usually over a meal. Jefferson hosted somewhere between 12 and 16 people over dinner three times a week on average over the eight years he served as president. Mr. Boston summarized Jefferson's leadership approach this way, if people know you and like you, they are most likely to give you the benefit of the doubt. I think we all know that to be true. People can be persuaded by building relationships of familiarity and trust in a civil context. The way I translate that is this, you can have a lot of influence on someone through respectful, civil, and repeated interaction over things that matter. So this week we're talking about building healthier civility and would we even dare to say unity in America by talking, getting together and knowing each other and talking about the issues of our day in healthy ways. So let's dive right right in. My guest today is Bishop Mark Beckwith. He is the co-chair of Braver Faith, which is a department or an arm of the 10 year old organization called Braver Angels. Beckwith served as Bishop of Newark, New Jersey. He served there for 12 years until his retirement in 2018. He's the author as well of Seeing the Unseen, Beyond Prejudices, Paradigms, and Party Lines. His passion is to invite people to look beyond their political and theological positions, to find hope in a way and a way forward. So today we welcome Bishop Mark Beckwith. He's going to let me call him Mark, which is hopefully not confusing to our podcast. Mark, welcome to Faith and Clarity.

Mark Beckwith: [00:03:15] Uh, thank you, Mark. It's nice to be here and, uh, I appreciate the opportunity to talk about, uh, how we are joined together, uh, through the spirit, through Imago Dei, through all the many ways, uh, that we can sort through and, uh, uh, build a beloved community.

Mark Turman: [00:03:34] Well, we're looking forward to the conversation, but before we jump into that, uh, I just want to say, uh, you know, you told me before we started that you now live in New Hampshire, which is apparently on everybody's bucket list when they turn 55 or 60 because I hear it's the most beautiful part of the country when you get to the fall. Can you confirm that?

Mark Beckwith: [00:03:56] Uh, yeah, although people in Vermont would take issue with that, but, uh, uh, New Hampshire and Vermont, uh, the fall foliage, leaf peepers, uh, people come and, uh, it's a great boom to the economy and, and, uh, uh, I think we're very grateful for the people who come and very grateful when they go back.

Mark Turman: [00:04:17] Right. Just like the people of Hawaii and many other places in the world, I'm sure. Right? So, well, let's jump in and talk about Braver Angels and Braver Faith. Uh, if people visit the website for Braver Angels, the first stat that they'll see comes from, uh, the Pew organization, which caught my attention immediately. Uh, it talks about the percentage of Americans who trust the government to do what is right. In 1963, the year I was born, the same year that President Kennedy was assassinated, 77% of Americans said that they trusted the government to do what was right. By 1985, the year I graduated from college, that number had dropped to 40%, and in 2022, it has dropped again to 20%. Can you kind of frame this problem in terms of some of the symptoms, some of the outcomes, and even some of the risk that, uh, we are running as Americans when we don't trust our government and its leaders?

Mark Beckwith: [00:05:19] Yeah, thank you. I, and I will, uh, walk through my perspective and sort of end up with talking about how Braver Angels got started. Um, Okay. About 25, maybe 30 years ago, a sociologist at Harvard, uh, named Robert Putnam wrote a book called Bowling Alone. And what he does is he traces the decline of social capital. Social capital is, uh, the voluntary organizations that we engage in, uh, religious communities, church attendance, uh, uh, Little League, uh, neighborhood watch groups, voting patterns, our voluntary organizations. And in the 1950s and 1960s, they were burgeoning, and then from about the middle of the 60s to the present day, uh, they began to decline such that people are now bowling alone, bowling alone. And he attributes that to many, many things, but one of them is, uh, certainly that people spend more time on a screen than they do in relationship. And, uh, so as people are more isolated from one another or living in silos, uh, their trust level begins to decline. And as their trust level begins to decline, and they, they also spend less time, uh, the, uh, um, the attendance at religious, uh, ceremonies has gone down at the same time. I think some say Pew says it has leveled off, but, uh, that just leaves us open for, uh, mistrust, uh, mistrust of the government, mistrust of each other, and polarization, which leads me to Braver Angels. Uh, Braver Angels was formed after the, uh, presidential election in 2016. And three people got together, David Blankenhorn, Bill Doherty, and David Lapp, uh, who had worked together before, said, we have a crisis in our country. We have a crisis in our country of polarization. And so in South Lebanon, Ohio, in December, I think, of 2016, they pulled 22 people together, 11 Trump voters and 11, uh, Clinton voters. And they were facilitated, uh, by someone who, uh, has a history of bringing, uh, conversations into a cohesive way so that people are listening to one another. That was the birth of Braver Angels. And the name was taken from Lincoln's first inaugural address, referring to the better braver angels of our nature. A better angels of our nature. I'm sorry. Uh, that was our name for a while, but we needed to change it because there was another organization that already had it. And, uh, instead of going through endless court cases, we decided to rename ourselves Braver Angels because the polarization was such that we need to be braver. We need to be braver. And, uh, the essence of Braver Angels is to bring people together across difference. And, uh, Braver Angels has determined that 80 to 90% of people identify as either red or blue, conservative or progressive. That number that, uh, may be going down a little bit. We find that there may be more purple. We say that they're yellow. Um, um, and, and so we now have three colors. But when we gather together, we identify as either red or blue. And we gather together not for the purpose of pulling one side to the other, but to understand one another and to see if we can find common ground. And over the nearly 10 years that we've been, uh, in existence, we have discovered that people agree much more than they disagree. That's not to say that that, and we don't paper over the disagreements. We try and engage them, um, front and center. We have a process called the Braver Angels Way of how we listen to one another and honor one another and respect one another and engage in civility such that, uh, we can have these conversations. And it's having an impact. Uh, and Braver Angels is, is the largest, I think, of these bridge building organizations, but there are many more that have started around the same time. One American movement is one, um, Interfaith America is another, uh, I'm trying to remember, Faith 250, there, there are many of them that are really committed, uh, to gathering people together to have conversations, again, not to pull one side to the other, but how can we find common ground?

Mark Turman: [00:10:14] Right. So, um, is there a metric that Braver Angels uses, uh, 10 years in, uh, about how they understand success? Are they measuring success by the number of chapters, uh, around the country, by the number of participants? What's, what's the measure of success after a decade?

Mark Beckwith: [00:10:33] That's, uh, that's a great question and, uh, um, as I was reading some of the, uh, material from Denison Forum, uh, that the term that is often used is metanoia, uh, which is kind of conversion. And I'm not sure how you measure conversion. I mean, some, there's some ways of measuring it, but people have a turning, a turning toward one another. And you can measure it by the growth of Braver Angels. Uh, we are involved in all 50 states with, um, uh, uh, uh, moderators in each state. We have ambassadors. Uh, we have had over, I think 1500, um, uh, uh, uh, conversations that are through the Braver Angels, uh, curriculum, if you will, the menu of options that people can have. So, uh, people are engaged in that. We've been involved, uh, with the faith, I'm sorry, the Problem Solvers Caucus in, um, in Washington. Uh, now the, um, citizens, um, I'm going to get the name wrong, the immigration, uh, initiative that Braver Angels is hosting is now engaging, um, uh, political figures, uh, Washington political figures, a red and a blue to listen to the proposals. They have 29 proposals around immigration that an equal number of red and blue people came up with and, uh, discovered all this, this, uh, uh, congruence, uh, even though there were differences in some areas, but here are 29 things that we can agree on. Will you work with us, um, and, and join on in with us in, in this work? So, uh, the impact is, is certainly, uh, is moving forward. We, the Braver Faith, um, was formed a couple of years ago, uh, because so many people, uh, who are in faith communities, uh, find that their own faith community is often divided and they don't know how to address it. Uh, a lot of pastors are, are, um, anxious about moving into this, into this arena, uh, fearing that they're going to, um, uh, kind of, uh, disappoint or, uh, uh, one side or the other such that people will say, well, this is no longer a safe place for me. Uh, my views are not protected and honored. So, uh, congregations have been engaged in this as well.

Mark Turman: [00:13:15] Yeah, we'll, and we'll, we'll get a little bit more into that when we talk about families because it, it has gotten down very much to the local level, right? We've, we've brought national and and global politics down to the, uh, neighborhood level. Uh, and we've seen that a lot in families, uh, getting together over a meal. Uh, we've seen it in congregations. Uh, just three or four years ago, I heard of a pastor who said, you know, coming through COVID, uh, and some of the things attached to that, that he had had the harshest things said to him by his, by his members. And then one of his friends said, yeah, that happened to me too. And it was some of the harshest things said to me ever in ministry, and it came from my best, most faithful people. Um, so, uh, division and partisanship and, uh, polarization is happening at very much at the grass roots level in every way. Yes. Um, I wanted to also get your thoughts. Well, before I ask the next question, tell me a little bit, you told me off camera, but, uh, tell our audience how, how this idea of better or braver angels captured your own attention and how you got involved.

Mark Beckwith: [00:14:26] Yes, it was six months before I retired as bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Newark. And, uh, and I had some ideas of what I wanted to do as I stepped down and lived into a new life. And in April of 2018, David Brooks, who's an op ed columnist for the New York Times, wrote about Braver Angels and said, here is this, uh, growing group that is two years old, founded after the 2016 election, uh, gathering people together across difference. And I thought, oh my God, that's exactly, uh, what my whole ministry has been about or a major portion of it, cited the the founder of Braver Angels, a guy named David Blankenhorn. I called David up, we had a conversation, continually keep talking, uh, invited me to the first convention in, uh, June of 2018, and I've been with it ever since, uh, at various levels. One of the things that we did before the 2020 election, um, is to create, uh, um, several templates for religious communities, for, uh, colleges and universities and nonprofits like Rotary and the YMCA, um, uh, uh, with malice towards none, figuring that after the 2020 election, nearly half the country would be very upset and half would be either elated or relieved. We didn't know which way that was going to go. And we, uh, put together some, some programs whereby people could express their, uh, disappointment or, uh, and also their, their, their relief, and then how to bring people together so we can live together in, uh, this polarized community. And, uh, that then, uh, we had, oh, three or 400 religious communities that were involved in that, and that sort of led to braver faith.

Mark Turman: [00:16:25] Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's really, really helpful. And, um, you know, it's been just something that I think God is just stirring to bring about hopefully a greater sense of civility, uh, going forward. Uh, the, the, Mark, I noticed that, uh, if I may, go ahead. When I heard about Braver Angels and learned more about it and got involved, um, I've said many, many times, to me, uh, it is the secular version of the Anglican movement. The Episcopal Church is part of the Anglican movement that started in the 1500s. Uh, Elizabeth I, and it was, uh, a church that emerged in the, uh, very severe tension, polarization between Catholicism and Protestantism. And we sort of said, we, the Anglican, uh, tradition said, we are the way in between, the via media. We're neither Catholic nor Protestant. So we were created in this tension, and I see the tension that we experience in our culture now, this political tension, which is deep and real and has divided families and, uh, made life very difficult for lots of people, um, offers a way for people to work through, uh, these very challenging differences.

Mark Turman: [00:17:47] Yeah, and I, I appreciate you saying that. I, I ran into that even last night watching a, a period program from that time frame in, uh, in Great Britain, and it referenced that very sharp controversy between Protestant and Catholic and how, uh, Anglican believers were trying to figure out how to navigate that in a healthier way. Um, and so I appreciate that legacy. These, these issues that we're struggling with are not new. They've been with us for a while. And we, the Anglican tradition, I'd like to say that it was, uh, turnkey operation. It was not. It's still is not. We still live in, in tension around the globe because, uh, there are 80, 85 million Anglicans around the, the, the world and, and we don't agree on everything. So how to live in that tension is, is something in the bedrock. It's in our DNA.

Mark Turman: [00:18:45] Right. Well, I wanted to come back around with that in mind to the Pew study for a minute. Uh, I went and read through some of that research that, uh, your website, uh, cites. And it, it's interesting to me that that study indicates that people trust the government when the party that they prefer holds the presidency and when the economy is doing better. Those seem to be the two biggest barometers. I was wanted to get your thought on what that says about our motives, uh, and the problem of partisanship that we keep running into.

Mark Beckwith: [00:19:16] Yeah, um, a couple of years ago, I had a conversation with, uh, a retired Senator John Danforth. He was the Republican Senator of, from Missouri. He's also an Episcopal priest, and he has been deeply engaged in bringing people together. And he said, um, when he was a, a seated senator, uh, that the senators would gather together all the time across differences. And now, you know, they're going back to their home districts and there's very little, um, uh, relationship. And he said, what's interesting and frightening, I think that was the term that he used, is that so many people start with their politics and not with their faith. And, uh, they define themselves by their politics rather than their faith. And how can we switch that around? Um, how can we switch that around? So, uh, faith is fundamental to who I am and from, uh, what you've told me, Mark, and what I've read about Denison Forum is fundamental, foundational to who you are. And how do we live that in such a way? And unfortunately, we live in a world now that a faith statement sometimes gets dissected to being a political statement. And that's, uh, uh, that's really unfortunate. And it seems to me that what we need to do and what I've been trying to do in, in my work with Braver Faith, some of the other things that I do, I do a podcast myself called Reconciliation Roundtable where I'm trying to get people from different, uh, Christian perspectives to talk with one another and find out, you know, where is Christ for us, where are the common places, um, we hear and sometimes can detect where the differences are theologically, but there's some real common places that, uh, where we can meet and build on.

Mark Turman: [00:21:22] Right. Okay. Yeah, I want to get a little bit further into some of the aspects of how faith and and, uh, civility and being a citizen, how they those things interact and overlap. But before we do that, I just, uh, I wanted to get you, Mark, to comment, if somebody gets intrigued like you and I have been intrigued by the the initiative and the work that Braver Angels and Braver Faith are doing, um, where would a person start? Um, if they really have a passion to, you know, see a greater sense of civility, a greater sense of community trust and awareness, uh, they want to be a part of finding solutions, not, you know, furthering problems. I love your call out at the beginning of our conversation that, you know, the more lonely we are, the more suspicious we become of each other. Right. Um, and, and I think we just have to figure out all kinds of ways to break that down, politics and, and civility being one of them. But give our people a sense of, okay, well, where do I start? Do I start on the website? How do I find a group? Do I get involved in an online experience first? Um, how would somebody really step into the ecosystem of Braver Angels and Braver Faith and maybe start putting their toe in the water?

Mark Beckwith: [00:22:39] That's a great question. And, uh, I think the a place to start is on the website, braverangels.org, and then look to the national, um, the map and, uh, indicate where your state is, what alliance there is. Each state has one, at least one alliance, maybe several alliances depending on the geography. I'm not sure how many alliances there are in Texas. I would imagine they're more than in New Hampshire just by virtue of the geographic size, but, uh, and the alliance work gathers people together, um, to, uh, really deal with issues that, uh, some issues, uh, I remember an alliance in California dealt with the issue of homelessness and Braver Angels convened people, again, across differences and, and offered their, uh, the results of their conversation to the community, which was polarized, and came into the community and say, look, there's another way to talk about this. And, uh, sort of move the needle in, in this, uh, polarized, uh, way. So, um, the, the, the website, uh, looking, um, for where one state is, um, if, if you're a person of faith community, as I, I suspect most people who listen to the Denison Forum are, uh, to look on our, our website, Braver Faith, we have a newsletter that we go out, uh, that we send out once a month. We have various events. Uh, there are a menu of, of, uh, discussion programs that are very carefully crafted, uh, depolarizing ourselves, uh, depolarizing within the, the foundational one is the red and blue workshop, which is what the first one that happened in 2016, gathering people from equal, uh, numbers red and blue and, and a whole process whereby people listen to themselves and listen to one another and figure out, um, how we can be in better relationship with one another. Every Braver Angels event, um, begins with the, uh, the norms that have been established, uh, often called the Braver Angels Way. Um, listening without, um, making comments, acknowledging, uh, someone else, uh, respecting other people's opinions, and, um, and it's not just flashed up on a screen, they're read and then people have to not just nod to them, but say yes to them, which then gives the moderator, uh, the authority or the permission to say, wait a minute, you, you are breaching, uh, our norms and do that in a gracious way. And that keeps things, uh, within, um, uh, a safe, safe context and people, uh, feel comfortable with that. So I think that's really important. The polar, um, we have trained moderators, um, and also another one is called depolarizing ourselves, which is, uh, for faith communities. Uh, you can find that on the Braver Angels website, uh, that sort of helps us see where we may have learned some of the perspectives that we have, um, and how to listen to someone else. And there's a, an acronym that we've come up with, uh, that conveniently, uh, matches the letters of one of the founders, David Lapp, L A P P, listen, acknowledge, pivot, and then provide your perspective. And typically what happens when people are in tension, they provide their perspective first, and then listening gets lost. So it's listen, acknowledge, pivot, and perspective. And people need to be trained in this. Uh, to be trained in, you and I who are pastors got trained in that a long time ago over and over and over again. At least that was the case for me. Often people aren't trained in that and, and in our culture, again, we start with our perspective and then wonder why somebody doesn't want to listen to us anymore. So there are these, these techniques and these programs that enable, uh, folks to get involved.

Mark Turman: [00:28:38] Yeah. So that's, so that's a great way to get started. Absolutely. braverangels.org and, uh, and you can find chapters. I don't know how many there are in Texas. I know there's at least three, uh, one in the North Dallas area, not far from me, one in, uh, the Fort Worth area, one in Central Texas, and I'm sure there's several others as well. Um, but start with the website, braverangels.org. We're going to take a break for a moment, let you catch your breath, and we're going to do the same, and we'll be right back. We're going to talk more in the second half, uh, a little bit more about how faith, uh, forms and informs our, uh, civil and political engagement, or at least how it should. And, uh, we'll be right back.

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Mark Turman: [00:30:15] All right, we're back talking with Mark Beckwith about Braver Angels and Braver Faith. And, uh, Mark, I wanted to take some more time to kind of go down this avenue that is, uh, I guess maybe your specialty with Braver Angels, which is the area of the intersection of faith and civil life as citizens. Uh, obviously the name Braver Faith, uh, kind of has a reference and a context in this situation of bringing in God's perspective, bringing in biblical perspective, uh, to how we live our lives in our communities, how we live them out, as, uh, Paul referenced to the Philippians, as citizens first of heaven, but also citizens for a time here on earth. Uh, give me some of your basic thoughts on how faith, our relationship with Christ, or faith more broadly, should guide our citizenship and our involvement.

Mark Beckwith: [00:31:15] Well, all the people on the Braver Faith team, uh, and let me say that every, uh, um, department arm of Braver Angels, any, any alliance, any of the groups that Braver Angels has, has a commitment that the leader, that there'll be two leaders, uh, a red and a blue, uh, a red and a blue. And that the rest of the group reflects, um, as much as possible, um, a red and blue balance. So, my, the Braver Faith team, um, uh, my red co-chair, uh, needed to do other stuff in Braver Angels and actually later today I'm interviewing someone to become the co-chair, uh, a red co-chair. Um, but we have somebody who is a, um, works for the Rumi Forum, so he is, he's a, actually he, he identifies as red, but he's a Muslim. We have a Jew, we have LDS, uh, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, a couple Roman Catholics, um, a Methodist, uh, and, uh, another Jewish person. And, uh, so we represent a, a wide array of religious traditions. So, um, we're, more of an, more of us are Christian, but not exclusively Christian. Uh, and all of us would say, we are in Braver Angels because of our faith commitment, of our faith commitment. That is what has brought us to this. And what I've learned over the course of time, um, many years ago, I, I did a TV show with a, a rabbi and an imam. So a bishop, rabbi, and imam, so it sounds like a bad, start of a bad joke, and we were on a TV show, and we shared our respective faith traditions. And what was important about that for me and my, uh, my brothers, uh, from these two different faith traditions, as we learned more and, and developed a relationship with the, uh, people from other faiths, it brought me deeper into my own. Uh, in some ways that sounds like a paradox, but the more I learned and appreciated Judaism and Islam, uh, the more I could connect to the deeper depths of my Christian faith. So, uh, that's a, that's a key component of it. The other part is that, um, religious communities, uh, are, uh, are very vital to the American experiment and to democracy. Uh, somebody who I did a podcast with, um, despised, defined, uh, religion as the load bearing wall of democracy. Needs to be kept separate, but it's a load bearing wall. And we, and I certainly feel this way in Braver Faith, we need to build up that road, that, uh, um, uh, uh, load bearing wall. 250 years ago, that load bearing wall was pretty much limited to Protestant Christianity. 250 years later, the, the load bearing wall of religion in America is much, much broader. And can we be in relationship with all those, all those many pieces and, and be a, uh, a, a wall and a, uh, strength, uh, for this, uh, for this community. And also, I think, engages us, gets us involved in the public sphere. Uh, and one of the key, uh, the new metaphor that's being, uh, used a lot in Braver Angels is the notion of courageous citizenship. We are people of faith, um, uh, but we also are citizens in this country, and how do we be courageous citizens? How do we, which is beyond, includes voting, but it involves much, much more than that. And, uh, how can we exercise our citizenship in a courageous way? And my courage comes from my faith and the way I, uh, practice my faith, the way I'm nurtured by my faith. So I think that's very important.

Mark Turman: [00:34:42] Yeah, in many, in many ways, uh, courage is a pretty good synonym for faith. Yes. In a lot of ways. Um, and I, I think C. S. Lewis made comments about that and, uh, many others as well. And kind of fundamental to that, I love the, I love the metaphor of the load bearing wall. I think that's absolutely true. Uh, and reminds me of that Jeremiah passage, you know, where, uh, God says through Jeremiah, seek the welfare of the city where I've sent you. Um, that in your, in, in the city's welfare is bound up your, your welfare, uh, and you need to pursue both. Right. And I think that's so important. Uh, at Denison Forum and, and also at Braver Angels, Braver Faith, uh, fundamental to all of this is the image of God that we learn about from the earliest pages of scripture. Uh, Mark, talk about how that is important to Braver Angels and Braver Faith and how acknowledging, recognizing, honoring, respecting the image of God in every person, regardless of their faith, regardless of their lack of faith, regardless of their politics, talk about how that is fundamental to the work that y'all are doing.

Mark Beckwith: [00:35:53] Well, thank you for that. Imago Dei, we're made in the image of God. And, uh, I think the challenge, certainly I see in my, uh, my own faith, but in the broader dimension of Braver Faith is to lift that up as many ways as we possibly can. So we have, uh, our goal is to bring people, uh, together across difference, religious difference, political difference, racial difference, uh, because we're all made in the image of God. And there's a Benedictine notion, um, uh, the Benedictine, uh, community within the Catholic Church is that when you see a stranger, we're, we're encouraged to see Christ. Um, to see the face of Christ in everyone. And, uh, that is, it's kind of an extension, if you will, of Imago Dei. And so I see the face of Christ, um, or I try to see the face of Christ in everyone, regardless of what their religious tradition is, that this loving, uh, presence, uh, is available to everyone and to see that. And the challenge, I think, is sometimes we're, there are forces and voices out there that would say, no, no, no, that's not the, the face of Christ could not be in that person. Uh, because of their belief system or because of their practice or their political orientation or where they live or their zip code or how much money they have or don't have, whatever, um, we are all made in the image of God. And, uh, uh, I think we in the religious community, uh, need to stand up for that and particularly stand up for those who are, who are the most vulnerable. So I think that's a key component.

Mark Turman: [00:37:39] Yeah. Yeah, and you know, and Jesus is such a model of that, right? If, if Jesus could in, in some ways see the image of his father even in the people that were nailing him to the cross and pray for their forgiveness, that ought to be informative to us at every level. Um, and, you know, as Jesus taught and as I'm sure you're familiar, you know, Jesus said the most important thing is love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and being and love your neighbor, uh, as yourself, uh, which is also referenced on, uh, the Braver Faith website, um, that love is the activator or the initiator of our trust. Uh, speak a little bit to that in a culture that simply thinks of love as a feeling. Uh, my pastor used to call it the feeling you feel when you've never felt that way before. Sure. Um, as an emotional reality, but the Bible is speaking about love in a different and deeper kind of way, especially when it talks about loving people that are different from you. Right. Uh, and we'll get to this in a minute, but loving them, respecting them, listening to them is not the same thing as agreeing with them or being persuaded by them. We'll get to that in a second, but talk about that from the perspective of Jesus teaching us to love our enemies.

Mark Beckwith: [00:38:56] Yeah. Um, a story. Years ago, I led a youth group, uh, when I was serving a church in New Jersey, and we went on a rafting trip. And to get to the head of the river where we were going to get in our rafts, we had to take a bus ride. And we were near the back of the bus, but at the very back of the bus were six guys in their 20s out to have a good time. They had the beer with them. Uh, they were crude, they were rude. Um, after they finished their beer, which they threw out the back window of the bus, they started ogling our, uh, the young women in my youth group. And I wanted to say something to them, and I knew if I did, I'd be the next thing thrown out the back of the bus. That was the type of guys they were. And so I'm stewing, and it's a 30 minute ride, and I'm just angry at these guys. And the passage came to me, love one another as I have loved you. And I said, yeah, but not these guys. And, uh, um, and it came back to me, no, love one another as I have loved you. It's not an option. It's a command. It's a command to love, um, the people, especially the ones we don't want to love. Um, there's no, there's no, uh, equivocation about that. There's no ambiguity about that. So that is, uh, that is a key component. Um, and I think, uh, we in Braver Faith want to lift that up. And it is hard to do because there are forces and voices out there that don't want us to do that. And there are feelings inside of us that don't want to do that. And so, um, you know, we have to, have to reconnect, uh, with God through scripture, through worship, through the prayer, through the many ways that we have available to us, so we can go out and do it again. I think loving one another is inviting God's full blessing on everyone, on everyone. And, uh, there are days when I'm not able to do that. Uh, and then I find other people and, uh, Braver Faith is one place and friends and my congregation that I attend and all that helps me with that.

Mark Turman: [00:41:04] Mm. Yeah, and it's, it is, it is an aspirational goal for all of us, for sure, until we, until we meet Christ face to face. Absolutely. Um, Mark, we have time for a few more questions, but one of the ones that I really wanted to bring down to kind of the ground level is the reality that particularly over the last 10 years, maybe longer, if you wanted to frame it in a longer sense, but, um, a big part of the, of the polarization of our country around politics and sometimes around other issues as well, has really gotten down to the family level. Um, at Denison Forum and on our podcast here at Faith and Clarity, we've had conversations with people about, uh, hey, you're coming home from college or you're coming home for Thanksgiving or you're getting together for Christmas or some other gathering and it almost sounds silly if not strange that we need to talk to each other about how to get together with your extended family or your close friends and and and talk in such a way where you can have a meaningful and enjoyable conversation but not end up in, uh, really damaging conversations. Yeah. Uh, particularly around politics, political leaders, around a particular issue. Uh, talk about how Braver Faith and Braver Angels can give people some handles for stepping into those kinds of situations with the people that they know and love the most.

Mark Beckwith: [00:42:35] Yeah, thank you. And, and, uh, uh, Bill Doherty, who I, I mentioned earlier, one of the founders of Braver Angels, who led a department at University of, of Minnesota in family life, has designed most of the, uh, of the, uh, uh, workshops. And I can't remember the exact name, but the intent was, how do we get through Thanksgiving? When Uncle, Uncle, uh, George and Aunt Sadie start talking in this way. And so there, um, surviving the holidays, I again, I can't remember the name of, of the title, how do we do that? How do we do that and, and, um, uh, be in harmony with our families, which have all sorts of dynamics, uh, around them. Uh, and not always easy. Uh, I mean, Jesus said, uh, you know, your mother and brothers and sisters are here. And he said, no, no, no, no, those are not my, these are my mothers and brothers and sisters. I take that as that his family was much larger than his biological, biological. Um, that everybody is his brother and sister. He used that occasion, uh, to make that point. But, uh, I think that's, that's important. Another piece here that's been very important to me, uh, when gathering together and Braver Angels sort of embodies this, is the concept of Mandorla, Mandorla. It's an Italian word meaning almond, M A N D O R L A. It's the shape that's created when two circles intersect. Think of Venn diagram from sixth grade math. Um, and, uh, in Christian art, there are lots of depictions of the Mandorla, not the halo, the Mandorla. Actually, a, um, an icon that I pray in front of most regularly is the Risen Christ who is featured in the Mandorla, and he's pulling Adam and Eve out of Sheol, out of hell. He's in the Mandorla. Mandorla is the space, uh, where two opposing places intersect. Initially, heaven and earth. Um, I would say today it's between red and blue or any polarization. And you can't pull people into it. People have to voluntarily go into it. It's a place of transformation. It's a place of risk. It's a place of, of epiphany. And so I think what Braver Angels tries to do, uh, and I think what we can try and promote in our families when they get together is the invitation to enter that space, enter that space where we're a little more vulnerable, but a little more open to hear where somebody else is. And it's a transformational space. It's a place where metanoia, where, where conversion, where, where, uh, uh, transformation can happen.

Mark Turman: [00:45:31] Mm. Yeah, and so, so needed. You know, it's, it should not be, maybe sometimes it will be, but it should not be on most occasions that you have to choose between your family, your friends, or your political convictions. Hopefully, hopefully we're able to rise above that. And over 250 years, we've done a lot of, uh, rising above that in, in some very difficult places and around some very difficult issues. Indeed. Um, Mark, I can, I could imagine somebody listening to our conversation today thinking, well, I don't want to get near that. I don't want to be a part of something like Braver Angels, Braver Faith, because that might mean that I'm compromising my core beliefs and my biblically supported beliefs. Um, how does Braver Angels, Braver Faith help people understand that the goal is actually understanding, not necessarily affirming or validating somebody else's conviction or policy?

Mark Beckwith: [00:46:32] That's a great question, and I get that a lot. Some people will say, I cannot do this because to engage in this conversation with somebody who looks at, uh, a particular issue in a very different way from me, I'll be betraying my values. And my response to that is, as I engage in polarization, my commitments, my commitments have gotten stronger. That said, my commitment to build a bridge is even stronger than that. And so, uh, let me give you an example. Uh, since the, um, uh, the killing of 26 kids in Newtown, Connecticut in 2012, I founded a group called Bishops United Against Gun Violence. So I've been working in the gun violence prevention space for now for 13, almost 14 years. And, uh, there's a lot, talk about polarity, there's a lot of polarity around that. Recently, in the last year, uh, somebody at Tufts University brought a group of people together, 11 gun violence prevention people and, and 11, uh, Second Amendment people, all of whom have a fair amount of street cred, and we spent a lot of time crafting legislation for states that where we found common ground. And we were able to do that. And, uh, nobody was fully happy with anything that we came up with. Uh, because we had to let go, but we came up with something. We came up with something and now our task is, we've got a couple of states that we want to bring this to and to see if we can, uh, can move it forward. But all, uh, it will all, um, sort of reside on our ability to establish relationships, which is where we began. You know, we, we, we need to establish relationships one with another so trust can happen, so our silos can break down, and we have a, uh, a modicum of trust. Um, one person I've worked with who works with One America movement, and I heard this, I've heard it since, we move at the speed of trust. And, uh, that's, sometimes takes a long, long time, uh, moving at the speed of trust. And, and, uh, trusting in God and, and trusting in Christ, and, uh, as I have learned and I assume that you have learned, there are many different ways to trust in God and to trust in Christ. And we don't always agree about how to go about that. Uh, but I, I firmly believe that if somebody is sincere and intent and really works at it, uh, to get to a place of faith, that needs to be honored. That needs to be honored.

Mark Turman: [00:49:28] Yeah, and if you're, if your faith is not moving you toward your neighbor, then it's probably an unhealthy faith in Jesus's terms. Uh, is absolutely an unhealthy faith if it's not, if it's moving you more toward, uh, isolation, more towards anger, more towards, uh, suspicion of the people around you, then it's not helping you, it's hurting you. Um, and we need, we need to call that out. Uh, you mentioned gun violence, you know, next month is the 26th anniversary of the Columbine High School shooting. And unfortunately, in the last 26 years, we've just become accustomed to these kinds of things happening, whether it's, uh, in your area or Uvalde, Texas or somewhere else, uh, just, just the horrendous reality of, uh, mass gun violence and, uh, the need for a better way, the need for some kind of answer, uh, that will put us on a better path, uh, around that issue and many more, which, uh, kind of brings up one of the issues, uh, that Braver Faith and Braver Angels has to deal with, which is just the reality that America has a lot of anger and frustration in it right now. Um, how does, uh, how does being involved in a Braver Angels, Braver Faith kind of involvement, uh, where is the room for the emotion? How is that handled?

Mark Beckwith: [00:50:51] Yeah, that, that's a great thing. Again, I, uh, I'll call on the, uh, the norms that we, that we set at the beginning of every conversation that we're, um, uh, engaged in civility, listening to one another, honoring one another. Uh, Braver Angels debates, they had one last night, uh, on is President Trump's, um, uh, uh, initiative in Iran, is that bringing peace or not? And, uh, you know, a lot of people have a lot of feelings about that. And the way that Braver Angels debates go is you don't respond directly to the person who's making the case, you respond to the, the, uh, to the moderator, to the chair of the meeting. So that mitigates against, how can you say that? What do you mean? How can you, you know, so it really enables, uh, people to understand a little bit more. Um, from a faith perspective, and maybe this is also psychology, I think there's a difference between or there's a, there's a, there's a line between the ego and the soul. And, uh, our egos get stirred up, uh, easily. And again, there's, there are forces and voices out there that want us to respond with our egos, which is self protective, wants to win, all the rest of it. But the soul is where, I believe, love and creativity are born. How can we, and I believe faith communities do this, invite people to move beyond their ego, their need to win, their need to keep everything, uh, uh, just, um, uh, the way they want it to be and be open to something that's, that's deeper in them. And that's, uh, that's soul work. And it's not always easy to do. It's not, and, and we would all probably have difference in, in defining what, what is a soul and how does that work and all that sort of thing. But that, that really is a foundational component for me.

Mark Turman: [00:52:49] Yeah. And that's a good call out, a good, a good distinction between ego and soul. Um, that we need to think deeper about that. You know, we, we use Freud's terms probably way more than we should to try to understand ourselves. Um, but that's, that's a helpful call out, uh, pointing us back to the soul, uh, that Jesus, uh, talked about and reminds us of. Mark, thank you for being a part of this conversation. Thank you even more for your ministry through and with Braver Faith and Braver Angels. Uh, as we get ready to close, would you be willing to offer a prayer for us as we continue to look for ways to, to build bridges and to bring greater civility into our families, our congregations, our communities, even our whole country. Uh, I'd love it if you would offer a prayer for us.

Mark Beckwith: [00:53:38] Gracious God, we give thanks for our life together in you, for the many ways you invite us into the deep mystery of who you are and who you would have us be. May we continue to have our hearts deepened, our horizons expanded, and our love kindled by the blessing of who you are and the blessing we each carry in each and every one of us. Enable us in this time of polarization, anger, despair, despondency, and all the rest to find solace, to find courage, to find hope in you. And hope being, being believing in spite of the evidence and then watching the evidence change. Jesus showed us that hope. May we embrace that hope and be transformed by that hope. In your name we pray. Amen.

Mark Turman: [00:54:36] Amen. Thank you for that. And again, Mark, thank you for taking time to be with us. Want to thank our audience also for tuning in and, uh, being a part of this conversation. If it's been helpful to you, we pray that, uh, you would pass it along to others, rate, review us on your podcast platform. If you've got questions, please send those to us as well at information or [email protected]. And you can find more at our website, as always, denisonforum.org. We'll see you next time on Faith and Clarity.