Our New Abnormal: A conversation with Kerby Anderson

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Our New Abnormal: A conversation with Kerby Anderson

May 2, 2022 -

Kerby Anderson, Dr. Jim Denison, and Dr. Mark Turman discuss the state of culture post-pandemic, our economic future, freedom of speech and religion, how to be involved in politics, and how God is redeeming the darkness overshadowing our culture.

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Show notes

Kerby Anderson, Dr. Jim Denison, and Dr. Mark Turman discuss several trends of decline in American culture. While people are calling our modern reality normal, it’s really abnormal. They begin by considering the pandemic, the effects it has had on our culture, and several sociological trends that currently define America (6:55). They discuss how mRNA vaccines could revolutionize medicine, but how we can’t put our entire trust in scientists (17:23). They look into some positive news in the midst of what feels like lots of bad news, how God is redeeming technology and how we can be a light in the dark world right now (19:13). They consider the sanctions against Russia and their repercussions (24:23). Dr. Denison talks more about the “post-truth” state of our culture, and they consider why religious liberty cases are so important in the face of LGBTQ issues (31:00). They then delve into how Christians should be involved in politics, how we can do good in it, how to handle Trump, and how we shouldn’t allow our involvement with politics to interfere with the gospel (42:23).

Resources and further reading:

About the hosts 

Jim Denison, Ph.D., is an author, speaker, and the CEO of Denison Ministries, which is transforming 6.8 million lives through meaningful digital content. 

Dr. Mark Turman is the executive director of Denison Forum. He received his DMin from Truett at Baylor and previously served as lead pastor of Crosspoint Church. 

About the guest 

Kerby Anderson is a cultural apologist and serves as host of “Point of View” (USA Radio Network) and as president of Probe Ministries. He holds a Master’s degree from Yale and Georgetown University. He is also the author of numerous books.


Transcribed by Otter.ai

Mark Turman  00:01

Welcome back to the Denison Forum Podcast. I’m Mark Turman, the executive director of Denison forum here again with Dr. Jim Dennison, the CEO of Denison ministries and cultural apologist for Denison forum. Jim, how are you today?


Jim Denison  00:14

I’m doing well, Mark, thanks for the privilege of the conversation.


Mark Turman  00:16

You bet. Glad to be back in conversation with you today. And joining us today is our friend and fellow commentator. I don’t know exactly. We never know what to call ourselves. But Kerby Anderson is joining us today probably familiar to many of you. Kerby is the president of probe ministries, and also known across the country as the host of point of view, a live nationwide talk show live radio talk show, author of 25 books, also holds master’s degrees from Yale in the area of science and also from Georgetown in the area of government. And these two guys have been friends for a while. So Jim, I’ll give you the first shot here of anything you might want to say about Kerby Anderson.


Jim Denison  01:00

On the Record here. Exactly. So yeah, I’ve told a lot of people Kerby’s who I want to be when I grow up, I mean, you know, he’s just been a hero to me for so long. The way that he integrates a brilliant mind with a servant heart, his desire to really serve the church, and to be out on the edge of what’s happening out here. And so what he’s doing in radio and in print and in his leadership across the world is just really changing so many lives. And I’m just glad to be one of those. He has been an incredible encourager to me and us across the years wrote the foreword to the coming tsunami. So if you get the book on and read only that you’ve done well, yeah, so award winning an award winning introduction, exactly as it should be. But he’s been so gracious to us over the years, such an encourager, and I’m always honored to be on air with him. So, Kirby, thank you for making the time to brave 75 and George Bush, and all of that, to get over here today, and to be in the studio with


Kerby Anderson  01:48

us good to be with both of you. And again, I wish my wife are here to hearing that right now. Or even my mother was still alive to hear that because that was very good.


Mark Turman  01:55

So really, when a comment about his age that you wanted to purely non girl surely had nothing to do with that, right?


Jim Denison  02:01

Yeah, there’s one downside, I have told Kirby this, when we get to heaven, he won’t have a voice, God’s gonna give me his voice. So he just has this great radio voice, and I don’t. So I’ve always been jealous of that. But so grateful for him.


Mark Turman  02:12

Well, we’re glad to have a conversation. Today we’re going to talk about God the world and other things is kind of the way I thought we might get into this, but a few topics for the two of you to kind of weigh in on as we try to just continue to help our audience understand the world that they’re living in, and how they can live in it as salted light, which is what Denison forum is all about. So we’ll ramble through a couple of topics that we’ve explored as possibilities. But I wanted to start with how we see the world now, if we can even allow ourselves to say that we are in the post COVID world. In some sense, there’s no such thing as a post COVID world, I was talking with a pastor friend of mine, we’re just trying to understand where the pastor’s of local churches are, and what their kind of state of mind is right now. We came up with he shared with me four words that I’d like to get your reaction to. And we’ve we even struggled with what order to put these words in. But in talking to pastors and then seeing them also as a reflection of their congregation, these are, these words are seem to be indicative of people generally, because of what we’ve all lived through the last 30 or so months, the word confusion, followed by the word frustration, lots of things to go with there. Now we’re starting to see a rising evidence of a new of new forms and depths of isolation, which has seemingly left all of us as a generation of people sharing the planet right now at a place of exhaustion, mentally, physically, emotionally. And then let me just add in this, and then you guys jump in wherever you want to around this. I see it more prevalent among all of the healthcare professionals that that I intersect with whether that simply going to the doctor myself. I know Jim, you work with Baylor healthcare system, I get to be on the advisory board of the local hospital for Baylor in my hometown of McKinney, north of Dallas. And you can feel it, you can see it, we finally got to have an in person Advisory Board meeting recently. And there are a number of people from the hospital including executive staff, but you just feel a level of exhaustion among those people, unlike anything that I’ve ever experienced before. And so it does come out sometimes just in when you go to the doctor for regular things. What do you guys think? And is that those words frame it pretty well? Would you add to it? Would you take it somewhere else?


Kerby Anderson  04:55

Well, I think he first would have to say that we keep talking about a new normal but it isn’t normal. Well in a number of different ways, you’ve just illustrated that if you look at emotional issues, we look at the suicide ideation, anxiety, depression, those are all very high. And whether you look at a recent break point commentary or an article that appeared in Atlantic, whether you look at it from a Christian point of view, or non Christian point of view, we recognize that this new normal is not normal in terms of emotion. But since I’m a trans guy, let me talk about a couple of other trends because you have seen this new normal politically, who would have predicted that a couple of years ago that you would have individuals like your county judge deciding whether or not you can actually meet for any kind of worship service or even have a business. I’ve said before that when we go into these midterm elections, people for the first time, maybe now know who their county judges, they may know who their school board members are, because of some of the things that Jim’s written about in his book in terms of critical race theory and things like that. So the new normal on emotion, political is talking about economic over the last two years, anywhere from 30% to 40% of the dollars in circulation are new, which is again taken us into issues like inflation, and a variety of other topics that we never have had to address before. So when you look at it emotionally, politically, economically, one more spiritually, if I told you this, maybe two years ago, maybe two and a half years ago, that you would not be meeting for Easter service, because of a pandemic, you’d want to put me in a rubber room. And yet look at all of the things that have happened and the precedents that have been set. And this is why you starting to see some of these legislatures beginning to think about do we need to actually rein in the possibility that people could actually shut down religious services in the future? So I think it’s a good way of saying, Jim, that this new normal is nothing like the normal of three years ago. No, you’re


Jim Denison  06:55

exactly right. Caribbean, as usual, you have with your usual acumen demonstrated the foundational issues that these are symptomatic of, and really on all of those levels, we’re seeing ourselves in a brand new space, I’m thinking about the 30% that were insured prior to the pandemic that have not come back and apparently aren’t going to come back. I mean, every union overstay will come exactly whether they’re doing it on a digital level or on some other level of just not at all, perhaps they’re angry with God about a family member they lost during the pandemic, we’re not sure what that is. It’s a new normal on a financial level, as you say, as we’re resetting relationships. We’re seeing this in Russia right now. We’re seeing for the first time freezing of currencies, we’re seeing, at least in today’s news, as we’re having this conversation, Russia, deciding it will no longer export energy to Poland. And what does that mean in terms of Europe’s economic future and its energy future, you’re thinking in terms of the depression rates that we’re in right now that are unprecedented suicide rates among young people. And you’re thinking about the health care professionals, no doubt about that. In my work in the Baylor world, one of the first things we begin to understand is these people are on the front lines of this, from back when this thing started from when we first declared a pandemic on March 11, of two years ago, these people are treating patients that can kill them. Right? Every moment of every day, I’ve got a daughter in law, who’s a dentist, who even today is around patients and she knows can infect her every minute of every day and back before vaccines back before we even understood this to the degree we do now. These people are living on that level of personal existential dread just to go to work. We’ve got the stories, and you’re familiar with these Mark about RVs, in which health care professionals were living on the driveway of their house, because it couldn’t go in because they were afraid terrified of infecting their families. So it’s that level of personal issue they’ve been in with not to mention the pressures of all of these patients I’ve had to deal with, not to mention the challenges of healthcare anyway, in these days. And so these are days when we need the good news of the gospel, we need a great physician who really knows what we’re talking about who’s not taking notes in this conversation, who’s more aware than we are of where we are and where we’re going and as the light of the world and calls us to be that light as well.


Mark Turman  09:02

Absolutely, and a great need to figure out new ways to encourage each other. It’s almost like the whole world but particularly healthcare professionals are experiencing their own form of PTSD, no doubt. And I’ve talked to a few of them. Perhaps the worst experience they’ve that I can recall, are people either in nursing homes or in hospitals who had to watch someone die from COVID and other related problems. Without any family members. They’re that they were doing everything they could using phones and FaceTime and computers and all that but just the the trauma for them and for the patient for their family, that they were losing loved ones and he couldn’t even be in the room with them. That’s right. And that just being one example,


Kerby Anderson  09:53

I thought it had one more because now you have some people wondering if it’s going to happen again. They look over there at Shanghai, they look at What might happen in Beijing? And there’s a sense, Jim, just to the anxiety of I’ve just been through a pandemic and a lockdown. But are we really over with that. And sometimes that anxiety is added to it’s almost synergistically added to the rest of the anxiety that exists day to day.


Jim Denison  10:20

That’s a great point. And that’s with this pandemic, and those that are to come in the future. It would help us if we even know for certain how it started, if we knew absolutely without question without conflict and controversy, where this pandemic came from, how it began, so we can know to make sure it doesn’t happen. Again, if it is, in fact, something that was begun on some level with animals. Well, those kinds of zoonotic transmissions are in our future, as, as humanity expands, as we get into jungles and into areas where we’re now on some level cohabiting with animals we’ve never lived with before. We’re seeing zoonotic kind of crossover issues on a level we haven’t seen before. We’re dealing right now, we don’t hear a lot about it. But there’s an there’s a bird flu epidemic right now, in the country where we’re talking about millions of turkeys and of chickens, for instance, that have been killed. With right now I saw just this morning that people are being encouraged not to bring pet birds home, because we don’t know if they could be infected if they could infect us. So what’s the next pandemic? What’s the future on this thing? And are we Is this the new normal innocence like that? That’s a cloud that’s following us around people right now are not so glad you’re hearing this podcast as well.


Mark Turman  11:28

Because are they now looking at their dog or their cat? Yeah, John Desai, all of a sudden, I remember going back, probably, gosh, two or three decades now of hearing about the Asian bird flu. And that the the general attitude from what I could tell at that point among my congregation, that was, oh, that’s just silly. The idea that you could get something you could get a disease from your animal or from a bird and that, that it was really just dismissed in in the United States as being inconsequential and silly. And that’s the first recollection I have of ever seeing pictures in the media have large numbers of people wearing masks because they were worried about a respiratory illness, and that in our part of the world, we just kind of dismiss that. And now we’ve all been introduced to that on a very, very clear level,


Jim Denison  12:22

we live in a fallen world, right? We absolutely do. But one thing that may be helpful a little bit, at least this encourages me is to realize, first of all, God knows this not surprised by any of this. Second, God redeems all the allows, I’m convinced of that. So we can be asking God, what’s the good in this? Well, one good in this is, the more we recognize our mortality, the more we’ll prepare for eternity. We live in a world that’s so insulated from mortality, that was a day when you died at home. There was a day when you typically witnessed death, because you were in the home when your grandparents passed away, or even your parents or whatever, when every day was a threat. I mean, there was a day when you could starve to death, when you could get an illness that today you can treat with antibiotics that was absolutely deadly. We have ancestors that remember the polio epidemic as an existential threat. Well, we feel so insulated from that even our language, we don’t say people died, we say they passed on, or they moved on or whatever. Well, perhaps God wants to use what we’re discussing right now to remind us of our mortality. So we’ll be ready for eternity. Because we’re one day closer than we’ve ever been.


Kerby Anderson  13:22

You know, one of the things we’re seeing right now is even the secular word, it’s picking up that because if I can change the topic slightly when you look at this issue of climate change, activists of climate change, have always said the biggest problem they used to address was climate change denialism. Now, they’re talking about climate change, Doom ism. And I’ve written about this before, where there are so many people that are convinced we only have a few years left. And it’s not just the Alexandria Ocasio Cortes, there are quite a number of others that have been making predictions about the end of the world. And so now the climate change activists have said, maybe we’ve gone too far, we’ve used too much hyperbole. Well, if you see that, in that area, let’s bring it back to the pandemic, you know, Jim, you are starting to see more and more couples saying, I’m not going to bring a child into this world. And of course, at a time when we have a crashing fertility rates, and we no longer have a baby, boom, we have a baby bust, and a birth dearth. These are some things that we need to pay attention to. And again, these are things that I think pastors in churches and Christians should be speaking about, which is why I so appreciate what you do here every day


Jim Denison  14:27

well, and I with yours as well, because what we’re here to do is be light on the dark, the dark of the room, the more powerful the light, the more compelling the light, the more necessary the light. And that’s the good news. And all of this is that God redeems us and he wants to use this moment. He wants to use the desperation we’re describing, as a catalyst for the awakening, we so desperately need and that has to start with men.


Mark Turman  14:47

And it’s, you know, both of you think in these spaces you read and write in these spaces on a daily basis, and just hard to walk that line of trying to help people understand What’s going on in their world, so that they can engage it in a healthy way. But not you know, having just written a book called The coming tsunami is kind of sets people on edge a little bit. But that’s why the last part of the book is so important to talk about how this doesn’t catch God by surprise how the world will come to an end when God says it’s going to come to an end, and that he’s always present. And as you often say, Jim redeeming what he allows just one small evidence of that I was with some people that work in this space on Monday. And one of the, one of the positives in some ways that’s happened in the church world, among people that work in this space, is that a number of churches through these 30 months have paid off all of their indebtedness. And so some of the people in this space, we’re saying, as a church lender, people who help finance church projects are like we have funds available, because so many churches experienced different kinds of financial dynamics. And they’ve paid off millions of dollars worth of indebtedness, which now positions them for a new form of ministry and new types of ministry. That may not be so brick and mortar driven. Right. Which certainly as pastors, you know, certainly as a pastor, you know, we sometimes count our success by how many buildings, how many square feet we can build. But that’s one of the positives of coming out of this. And I wonder if we’re starting to see, we knew before the pandemic, something of this nature, something of this magnitude could happen. We saw it with a couple of instances of Ebola even here in Dallas in case of Ebola, and kind of set us on edge, but then that kind of got contained and we felt like okay, well, maybe we know how to handle this. And are you? Are you starting to sense or see evidences where the larger global community is saying, Okay, now, now, we do know some things. And and it won’t likely be the last threat of this nature. But we now know and are gaining almost daily more and more insight into where did it where did it come from? And how do we manage it? Do you think we’re getting better in those categories?


Jim Denison  17:23

I hope so. One would hope so certainly. And certainly some controversy inside all of this. But with the folks that I work with, and Baylor Scott and White, one way that they would respond to your question would be to say, the advent of mRNA vaccines is not only going to be relevant to to COVID-19, but to Coronavirus is going forward and to things like unto it, we’re looking at applications in cancer, looking at applications in a variety of places where there are genetic components, all cancer is a genetic mutation, would it be possible to engineer a vaccine that can respond to that in a way that we’ve not previously been able to that specific to that genomic sequence of that particular individual patient, and that’s Pacific colon cancer, let’s say Well, that’s perhaps in our future. Perhaps in our future, there’s a vaccine that can deal with flu, that can deal with various manifestations of cold as well as with COVID in the future. So it could be as has been the case in the past, where crises really mobilized a whole new form of technology, a whole new way of moving forward. In some ways, we’re still living off of the industrial revolution that was sparked out of World War One and again, out of World War Two. So could this be one of the ways God would redeem this to help us not only be more aware of these things, but be responding to them on a new scientific level? Now, the other side of that very briefly is that if we’re not careful, we humans will get so much faith in what I just said. So much trust in the scientists so much trust that the scientists with their white robes are the new priests of the day, that will just say, well, they will figure it out. They’ve got it figured out. Well, they could find a vaccine for every kind of Coronavirus there is, but when we’re done with this conversation, Kirby’s gonna get back on the North Dallas tollway. And that’s a religious experience. And so we’re all one day closer to eternity, whatever happens with what I just said, we still need to be dependent. But I think there’s some real hope on a scientific medical level that perhaps we can think about in the context of this Kirby, what


Kerby Anderson  19:13

are your thoughts and Mark, you were talking about what’s happened in the churches and maybe even give them some good news? First of all, you’ve seen a lot of these churches that recognize that during the lockdowns, they had to develop some kind of technology to reach out to their congregation. And we know that some of these major churches just even within a few miles of where we’re broadcasting here have reached more people through their online outreach than ever before. Let’s go to Ukraine for just a minute because this recently went to the nation Religious Broadcasters convention interacted with a number of people that have ministries in Ukraine. And they said, first of all, that when they had COVID, they recognize that many of these small churches there in Ukraine really did not have a way to communicate to their people, so a lot of the broadcaster’s helped them develop up this way in which they could actually minister to people during those lockdowns, well, then, of course, you have the invasion of Ukraine from Russia. And this gave them a way to still communicate with their people in a way that had never existed before. So even though they set it up to deal with COVID-19, it actually has been very, very significant in terms of the ministry they have in the lives of those individuals. By the way, everybody that I’ve talked to so far, various ministries that are over there, have said that we probably have seen the greatest evangelistic harvest in the history of Ukraine, I had one individual on my program recently, who is actually the head of the Religious Studies program at Dallas Theological Seminary. But he is a Jewish person who became a Christian during kind of their Jesus generation thing a long time ago. But as almost everybody is saying that this has been a very significant harvest, more people become Christians than ever before. And back to what Jim was saying, there are all sorts of individuals that probably would never walk into any of the churches where we attend, but have online actually heard the gospel for the first time. So even in the midst of all these tragedies, again, lighting some lamps, and this technology, matter of fact, that we’re using right now has been so instrumental in having a very significant spiritual impact, not only in this country, but even in places like Ukraine.


Jim Denison  21:26

Absolutely. And again, God knew that before we did, and he’s been preparing for that and planning for that. One quick example, Greg Laurie’s church had 6000 people in their online services prior to the pandemic, the Easter service after that they had 1.2 million. And we’re just that Billy Graham’s organization is saying that they’re reaching more people digitally and through video than they ever reached, even through their stadium events. And so God redeeming God using this, our ministry doubled during the pandemic, as people were looking for digital resource and a time of crisis. Last week, I was in studio with a pastor, they came up from Houston to do some conversation together, they specialize, especially in families, reaching out to children and families when they start and all these parents find themselves homeschooling that have never done that before, no idea what to do. They had 1000s of people in their community in Houston, reach out to them, because they were already known. They have resources for family. And they very quickly came together and created a whole host of things that were available for free on their website that you could download to help families as they deal with this. And they’ve seen a remarkable response in the Houston community as a result. So we’re always looking for ways God is using bad for good. It’s Joseph saying to his brothers, what you meant for evil God meant for good. Let’s join him in that. Let’s put that kind of lens on. Let’s ask God, where are you at work here? What are you doing? And how can I join you? I love the old Henry Blackaby question what God What is God doing? And how can we join him? Right. That’s the opportunity for us today.


Mark Turman  22:48

Yeah, and I think yes, so we’re seeing so Kevin come through something so. So life altering in some ways. But when I right after I moved to Dallas, I experienced a significant crisis. And somebody said to me, never waste a crisis. God doesn’t want to waste a crisis, he will redeem it. On a personal level, and on a global level, the more we put it in his hands. And hopefully, it’s bringing, Jim you said a number of times, especially as we’ve talked about your tsunami book, that that every great awakening is preceded by desperation. And that, I know the three of us share a desire to see that awakening, particularly in our part of the world. But this is part of that desperation, perhaps it’s necessary to bring us to the point of realizing just how much we need God, and how much we need him as the hope in the face of our mortality, and also, all the other kinds of brokenness that we’re experiencing. Kirby, I’m glad you brought up Ukraine, one of the pivot to that a little bit about what we’re experiencing what we’re learning, in some ways as Americans what we’re being reacquainted with when it comes to ideas of liberty and freedom, and also some of the economic side, you and I talked a little bit about that by email yesterday. But what is what do you think we’re watching unfold? What do you think the significant takeaways Kirby are so far as it relates to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine? Well, I


Kerby Anderson  24:23

thought I might focus since we did talk about the idea of economics for just a minute, because it’s something that you don’t normally think about. We just try to pay our bills. And we hope that everything is going to work out. But we are seeing some remarkable changes that I think are going to affect all of us even here. You look at Ukraine, and this is 1000s of miles away. So how could this affect us? Well, of course, we have the Russian invasion into Ukraine, and wisely and I think I agree with the decision made by the United States and the EU to freeze the funds of Russia, but they also decided to actually obtain the funds which are in many cases. is held by various banks, central banks, but they are actually Russian funds. And so this is, I think, an unprecedented change, because what it has done is illustrate the fact that we don’t necessarily have the same level of trust in the economic world that we used to have. You know, again, we are living right now in Texas. And I can tell you, Jim, there were some times when they were trying to sort out some land deals in Texas, where they didn’t have any documentation, they just had a person shake hands, because you know, you my, my bond is my trust, and I would trust you. And if anybody was ever disobedient, or dishonest, or in one way greedy, then they would probably be shunned by the whole society. Well, today, of course, we have all sorts of people that try to make sure that when you put money in the bank, that that money will be there, it’s supposed to be your money, but the bank owns it. And all of a sudden now and you have central banks say no, we’re gonna just take over all this money from Russia. This has been unprecedented, because we’ve always believed in what’s called sovereign immunity, even with our enemies. And now when you have the 11th largest economy in the world, Russia, and they have been cut off from those funds, which I think some of us agree with. But you can see that a lot of people are starting to say, wait a minute, if you can take the funds from Russia, then China has been looking at this saying, well, then you could take the funds from us as well. And so then all of a sudden, you’re recognizing that all sorts of countries are looking at this for the first time. And then if you add one more factor that affects us individually, let’s just go to Canada. And again, Canada actually has been the 10th largest economy in the world, one of the most dynamic democracies in the world. But when the truckers in Canada, got on the opposite side of the Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, they cut off all of their funds, and also the funds not only the truckers, but the various supporters as well. And so you have individuals saying, wait a minute, you know, is it possible that my funds could be cut off because I fall on the wrong side of political correctness? All the things that I’ve been mentioning, of course, in Jim’s book, that’s a possibility. Various countries are starting to say, Can I actually expect that the funds that are in the central banks and in these reserves are still available. So again, it’s just an unprecedented world that we find ourselves in, and it all comes back down to trust, you know, whether you look at this fact that we live in this post truth world, and you can’t trust what people say, and that’s a problem. Just think about this yesterday, my son in law, he’s a trial attorney, and he has to pick a jury. And he has to hope that he can find jurors that he can trust will render a good decision, when he knows full well that a lot of those jurors probably don’t believe in absolute truth, they don’t believe in right or wrong. We have lost trust in politics. We’ve lost trust and economics, because you can speak as a pastor to the loss of trust in religious institutions. And it sounds very much like some of the chapters in your book, Jim.


Jim Denison  28:19

Well, thank you. But you’re right. At the end of the day, this really as simplistic as it may sound, it’s foundational that once we decide the truth is your truth and my truth. Where does that end? Where does that story go? Does that mean your funds are my funds? Does that mean that at the end of the day, my sense of my own personal gender identity is mine, and you have no say about that Google has come forward with in Google Docs. Now, a new technology that you didn’t get to opt into, it’s now default, that will suggest more what they would consider to be, we would say woke words, but they would say more inclusive language. So your time may write on this in a browser article. So you’re writing a document. And if I said mankind, I think will pop up and say, Would you prefer to say humankind? If I’m saying policeman ill thing will pop up and say should you say police officer? So it’s not just correcting grammar. It’s not just correcting misspelling, it’s correcting, correcting politically incorrect speech. Will the day come when if I called Kendall Jenner, a man something would pop up? If I said same sex surgery would pop up and want it to be marriage equality? Will this go to a place where somebody like Google someday would not allow me to post what it considers to be damaging speech within its context? So you can see not only funds being seized, you could see speech being seized. It’s not as canceled culture on steroids, as it were. And it all starts with the idea and da Carson is right about this and tolerance used to mean you have the right to be wrong. Now intolerance, excuse me, tolerance meant you had the right to grow. Now tolerance means there’s no such thing as wrong. And if you disagree, you are intolerant, as paradoxical as that seems and And


Mark Turman  30:00

we’re starting to see this pretty large scale. The recent announcement that Elon Musk is buying Twitter, supposedly around the idea of protecting, advocating advancing free speech. Yeah, he outbid us. Yeah, we were slightly out. The three of us were,


Jim Denison  30:17

we had about like, $30. He had a little more than that, apparently in his pocketbook, but


Mark Turman  30:22

an interesting deal. You know, kind of curry going back to what you say. I think most of us most Americans, anyway, have often heard the term sanction. That instead of putting boots on the ground in a conflict, that one of the tools, one of the primary tools that governments use, particularly our government, is this idea of shame sanction, and financial sanction being one of those, but we’ve generally kind of just shrugged our shoulders most of the time and said, Yeah, that’s what they do when they don’t want to sin bullets and bombs and soldiers. This is what they politically do to try to make it sound like they’re doing something but we’re now seeing and in your insight is really helpful in that


Kerby Anderson  31:06

in this particular case, more than perhaps many other cases, it really is having a dramatic impact. And Jim kind of comes back to this idea that I’ve heard you talk about it and there was an article the other day was written by a new really a job that share of bland sample after example, example Jim when you don’t have a feminist least because if you hold on to them and ideology by understanding you should come transformed and again one of the things I thought I might illustrate and of course it illustrates a point I’ve made the equality ever be woken Have you ever been liberal enough because when you’re actually array of latest political ideals and other aspects campaigns and who thought the same thing is good articles on individual Joe Rogan example of feminism if you hold on to Bill Maher I mean really, because these are individuals that when they speak truth right all of a sudden they’re on the outside and illustrates the point I’ve made it you can never be woken up his bill never be liberal enough he has where are these latest radical radical feminists that was cancelled be convinced Harvard not even on saying gender issues, but just about or they go down Rogan supported John and one of the organizations have spoken out against the idea that a man and Bill Maher I mean, really and so there are individuals that one day themselves truth so all of a sudden they’re on the court and so you have this heart now for us as Christians, how can we live with MK disagrees events, we could be gracious and we can reach out to them at Harvard. But even that sigh injury shares all danger because she never be found that she can never deliberate on one of these organs always somebody’s against you that a minute they can cancel you a motion so they’re all wired in a sense, they can also use the cell or the state to the new cinch and back to your point mark. And that’s another hard number as we come on so many issues. If we are to love our enemies, we have to be very gracious and we can reach out to the microphone but on that side which you say are shooting their own day to day basically they can never be you can never be liberal making the point and there’s always somebody’s out there to cancel you in the day when if they can cancel you emotionally of a liar that they can also use their power the state to then use same person who’s sick and that’s another major and anxiety that more and more people are going to start with Jalen,


Jim Denison  33:42

I agree entirely. When you see it on estrogen, you begin to understand it’s really not Novick when I’m reading right now the the arm the fear of God is the cure for the innate advantage basically the title of the book is recovering our sanity when he’s making the point that was an article in The New York lot we’re moving in has married kind of a life that on some level is no longer saying this microphone like this. This case that’s an adult 60 saying claims this this person has no one in that because now we have they can do as a relationship with such as changed the pelvic with lung culture so the arm bleed this hand side sanity of them and that’s where we are advantage and so you’re across the board. I work with some people who understand freedom so an article today maybe we’re seeing marry transgenderism and female sports is really the Achilles this microphone. In this case it’s adult because now claims that this person has helped minority in sports. It’s Title Nine because now he has a significant relationship with a significant other equal opportunity in the playing field and the this seized by the transgender that’s where we are as represented and so you’re starting to do this across the industry. I’ve worked with some people that Alliance Defending freedoms Pacific we started we started to see things kind of imploding. Kirby just said that transgender females,


Mark Turman  35:06

you got to think about like, why we LGBTQ that idea. Now? Why would it even be female and minority in terms of the New York Times and The New York Times shoes? Why would a publication of that stature


Jim Denison  35:19



Mark Turman  35:20

even think that Tom now moving to pursued


Jim Denison  35:23

by the New Yorker editor is a 400 word article extolling sexual related industry? It’s it’s really the insanity of the moment.


Mark Turman  35:31

It wasn’t we started when we start to see the article imploding in this way in public about the schedule, you got to think of anything you’d like why would that idea of someone declares and look or why would it even warrant an article in The New York in the New York Times? So to that to that publication of dance I’ve had a couple of conversations even think it’s a topic that he did when he was talking about it political years ago New Yorker had a 600 word article spiritualism sanctuary relationship with his that there is in fact in a critical order a an article silent because honestly, majority embed is mostly citation shippi has with this horse and New Yorker, their magazine culture does you just don’t see it and hear it on a daily basis. There was one thing that just Yes, it was continuous go back to that which is the ongoing Twitter weeks when so many people Twitter is talking about one early even if worst or weekend or tweeting on what they want to say form there’s a fact that even a engaged silent Twitter hate or tool that is mostly silent we keep talking about Twitter and even though it’s there we’ll keep saying it’s such a we just don’t see it in here we can think about Twitter there’s there’s one thing that just but continues to suspect to you such as their ongoing conversation about majority who and so many people will tell you many of these things one of the going out their daily lives, the life forms or normal lives that people who they aren’t touched by Twitter the tourists ways but they’re healed talking about Twitter even though so many people keep some it’s such a weak plant for haves in a political we keep talking about Twitter humans to talk about coming midterms but do you suspect they know that there is inside this kind of sign they’re going to rise up the insanity and of the desperation and frustrated they are going about their daily lives maybe their quote unquote normal race and engage and they are touched by many of these things in various ways for example in my but they’re still busy with their regular lives and deliver some point like so many others graphs and lots of lectures we’re seeing via various things during midterms so last night now they know their county judging our school my wife works for this they’re going to rise out down and watched some and out of frustration and the mayor read what may be ready almost a seven minute brace engage affirmation I’m gonna give you this in my town my town has been leaders rocked because they did the level it was just like so many others across the country lots of topics diversity about me and just simply wanted so last night. We were watching our school and it was well we want works for the city. usin says there is this, we want silence. Maybe we weren’t Paul was saying more saying the Mayor Rahm Emanuel George a seven and what we keep hearing in the rattling nation of right after but I think first of all, we’re talking about a silent majority back in the 1970s. Because they’d been the oldest one roundtable I can remember that best of anybody weeks. And so that has always been the case. And in the in the scene, there was a very good run tribes in which they found that both the left hand was well streams or the nuisance that there is a good example, I would call 90% of the Twitter were saying from 10% actual Twitter, we understand that and what we keep hearing that your bring rattling is they may be silent. But I think first of all we talked about before the majority backing already seen seven errors in encouraging signs when we’re not able to remember that anybody war and so that has always been about Loudoun County extremes there was a very blue tribe which they found that both individual riot or screen up their concerns Twitter is a good example they bowed out in his mind 80% of the chapters talk about the things that we can do. So we understand that and so it used to be my favorite joke is


Kerby Anderson  39:42

the judgment even before the vote you are seeing Joe very recently has been most people were not bored now now board is blue as you’re gonna probably clean individuals that are standing out Are you concerned that district attorneys are saying, You know what, I don’t think we’re gonna prosecute and last for at least like shoplifting. So if you steal less than 1000 so, you know, it used to be my job as well, we know the judge was outraged recently has been most individuals will know who’s writing about the waves, one of those that was in office and then now disappear. Attorneys are saying, you know, what Republican, I think we’re going to be brought into the other one, and so I was there. And other goods? Well, I probably brought you and I’m always a little of our surface party out of these individually, in many cases, for real so we’ve had some Read, Write about the fact that we added a tsunami, or one of the rains have been talking about was in risk Nam English runs more than just a trip with America. And these are both Republicans and Democrats because this sandwich go to another one. And when I mentioned the bomb was there, very obvious. 45 Your vigilance is broad, right? George Washington already out Ursula usually, again, has voted forever. So we’ve had some red waves. But there are a lot of mention Bill Barr and talking Island Dershowitz start on my liberal army, but not more than just a fluid make a distinction. And these are both Republican and Democrat. Right, as the Sanders has left, say you have individuals as I mentioned, just a minute. I mean, obviously, they’re not writing pieces. Take a moment. Jonathan. Washington, you’ve got a far left and his voted for every Democrats that I can think of and the far right I mentioned, what a Bill Maher and Alan Dershowitz program a couple of liberals, but I would make a distinction between liberals who believe that you have a right to speak with you versus you have no right just we got to censor you.


Mark Turman  42:12

Let me let me recently attorney talking about that, for a party. It’s not nice to take a moment on the other


Jim Denison  42:19

side, it’s got a far left and far right, and sometimes with election, Buzz and lead but again, I


Kerby Anderson  42:33

think everybody knows exactly the party. Figure out you know, who is the heir apparent? Joe Biden. is the heir apparent or gotta find a way to decide, you know, are you going to run Trump again or you’re going to move a variety of other individuals that is I think going to be a big issue Clea likes more recently after this election, some people will forestall some of the radical things that are being done again that’s a question most Americans don’t even those who argue for Joe Biden. Joe Biden’s gonna run Kamala Harris such radical on the other side you know there was a run being of evidence again or peace whatever it is that you have but more or less after this election you will maybe be able to forestall the lowest approval rating and leave radical president in the modern world most Americans too voted for or didn’t vote because it’s fairly going part of it is to an average pizza no radical an individual that mentally there was evidence that he had actually also recognized that some man really bizarre has been worn and others and that’s exactly what even for like myself buyers around a lot of very radical This is the lowest I couldn’t rating you’ve seen for resume in the modern describe you really mana waivers and I would never not even close Jimmy Carter because of that, and part of it is because which is shown visually or mentally isn’t quite there and back to Jim’s base also recognizing it’s so Darley bizarre, really easy to light because even for a person born in California, around radical consolidators I could and that’s the good news about the Silk Road wouldn’t be able to even realize what a man was and I would never guess you don’t if you don’t you explain what a woman is voting ratio which is shown in the car the colon that we’re seeing Christian is coming back to Jim’s basics party. When it’s so dark running it is really easy to light a lie because good friend even who’s in the White House remember this culturally because See Him are saying some of the kinds of things we’ve been saying for years.


Jim Denison  45:04

And that’s the good news about the so called listing is that I think they’re realizing they just can’t stay silent. And if you don’t, if you don’t, it’s really more of the burden. And at the end of the day, it’s voting, it’s engaging, it’s God’s calling more question. It’s an opera service and are answering the call ologies Well, now we’re seeing waves coming to school board. To Commissioner for you and me to standard office, have a good friend of mine in house are represented we love what we saw because he felt it was Washington to John and to make a difference very clear to this and patients ought to be asking God so if we don’t have that Plato is gonna be right not why not when he said democracy and it’s really more the Buddha citizens others discovered about let’s face gets the William Wilberforce, rather than the collective is that opportunity to follow Jesus to make a difference. And to be true for you and me each and every single kind of difference we need to make the democracy building on that we saw appreciate. It was George Washington, John was very


Mark Turman  46:04

depth of conversations about what the quality morality depends on religion. And so if we were just a few more minutes, before we wrap up, I wanted to because


Jim Denison  46:15

it is discovered they cast their ballots, and I’ve been talking quite


Mark Turman  46:19

a bit in personal conversation.


Jim Denison  46:21

You can edit more. We’re out of time unless we choose Free not. Because one time.


Mark Turman  46:29

And I think the recording building on that that space on the disk are good. So we’re moving into even more depth of conversation. We talked a lot in recitation about balancing between being central warrior, Kirby, we’re just a few more minutes to before need to write one of the goals that we asked the questions and forum is Jim and I’ve been talking to bring up quite a bit respect to personal conversation.


Jim Denison  46:52

I know you just didn’t work


Mark Turman  46:55

out I don’t think so. Because one time before whatever. We had to go back and redo and live out as whether it’s in the midterm elections or other conversation on school board, we’ll get like to take the time to understand we’ve talked a lot of great ways about engaging conversations at your church and being around something as simple as a mask. One of the holes that we have at the desk for what would your thoughts be about bringing a bib how we walk out and hauling just in simple terms times down as cultural missionaries? The nod rhetoric of anger? Sure. Well, the


Kerby Anderson  47:30

Bible talks about a believer in term elections reauthorization actually practice the Golden Rule treat others like Ukraine or how problem is, is that something that’s been redefined? It’s around something as simple as it is. It does seem to me that we should but what would your thoughts be Trump I love how we listen to podcasts. Paul never heard anybody pounding the tape times. both Jim and I tried to be as gracious as nine and concede to those people the Bible talks about as being opportunity with Christ actually, I think that we should be quick to what the problem is, is that sometimes look here’s the work so obviously be willing to have conversation village Asia there’s that is as we speak, we no longer live in a Christian culture. The Bible says the common sense argument I tried to be as gracious as we can and positions to the wife or with one we family, gender, relationship religiously. James talks about think they lists are looking for individuals so obviously we need to do good and to have Michigan jazzers and I’d also really fed up with some of the we no longer live in a world there’s so much out today Well the Bible is a resume each other as you can use common sense obviously, how many of them are turned down or heat a little bit? That’s life but even with family gender times a little religious liberty, a variety turned away actually seems to be still makers sense and I think ratios are certainly the lead jewels with are going to be good ambassador and speak. Missionary we all shout. I think most people are really kind of fed up with some of the Talking Dead shows where so much shout down and people are interrupting each other. So like, obviously, if we can turn down and get out a little bit that will model but even when it’s hard. Oftentimes it’s a gentle answer. And we need to understand that we should be peacemakers leavers, we should be gracious, we should not certainly believe and with our biblical obligations for us speaking, honestly, that we all should have article cars hailed


Mark Turman  49:53

and to be involved starting in our own neighborhood. Great word for us to randos this starts as a cultural it should be I got dark place into places in all the living it out. And Mom, I want to say thank you for being a coordinated Kirby, thank you for coming over the people spending some time with. You said that very helpful. We need to understand as Jim, thank you for your time what levers,


Jim Denison  50:15

Kirby if I could it’s not to Lowe’s and and so great there’s almost compensations. So if you would just tell the


Mark Turman  50:22

full scales, what is to be involved in our own neighborhood, our own congregation is a great place to start again, I’m as


Kerby Anderson  50:29

president of pro ministries, and pros got all sorts of articulations. Tank and we actually have a three minute radio program.


Mark Turman  50:36

Thank you for being a part of this, Kirby, thank you for coming over. And then of course, some time with us today.


Kerby Anderson  50:42

Our audience seen as well, thank you for your time as well, they are so close. And then the radio program this conversation for those artists aren’t aware. And so if you, folks, because you’ve been in recent days turns out that we have reached 20 new stations last six months. President


Jim Denison  51:03

Kirby was recently in


Kerby Anderson  51:04

a laughing tank. And we actually on here, we’re in studio right at the host appointed. We have all these booklets that you’ve seen as


Mark Turman  51:15

part of this conversation. If it’s been helpful to you as well, please share this with others and rate us on your favorite podcast platform.


Kerby Anderson  51:27

Thank you again for being 20 new stations last six months. Oh, terrific. So I’ll do to you.


Jim Denison  51:32

Well, Kerby was recently in Alaska, being on air there in a local studio, where he’s engaged as he’s building up this network. He’ll go anywhere. He’s amazing. I’m just grazing and just grateful to be his friend.


Mark Turman  51:44

Yeah. Well, thank you both for being a part of this conversation. And if it’s been helpful to you, as a listener, please share this with others and rate us on your favorite podcast platform that will help others to find the show. And thank you again for being a part of today’s conversation.

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