Is your Jesus too American? 

Join Denison Forum’s podcast host, Dr. Mark Turman, as he engages with Dr. Steve Bezner, pastor of Houston Northwest Church, in an insightful conversation on how Christians can faithfully navigate modern culture. They discuss the tension between biblical and cultural values, the importance of community and racial reconciliation, and what it means to maintain a distinctly Christian identity. Drawing from his ministry experience and his book Your Jesus Is Too American, Dr. Bezner challenges believers to prioritize kingdom values over the American dream. The conversation also covers practical topics like financial generosity, biblical sexuality, and deepening relationships within the church and beyond. 

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Topics

• (01:06): Meet Dr. Steve Bezner
• (01:37): The Unique Challenges and Opportunities in Houston
• (05:01): Promoting Unity and Collaboration Among Churches
• (07:17): Building Relationships Across Faith Lines
• (09:39): Responding to Community Needs During Disasters
• (13:45): The Role of Identity in Modern Christianity
• (17:35): The Influence of Technology and Media
• (20:04): American Individualism and Its Impact on Faith
• (22:52): Hospitality and Community Building
• (28:08): Financial Stewardship and Generosity
• (32:58): Biblical Sexuality and Cultural Challenges
• (39:50): Success, Suffering, and the Christian Life
• (46:20): Hope for the American Church
• (47:58): Upcoming Event: Christian Life Commission Advocacy Day
• (50:25): Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Resources

• Your Jesus Is Too American: Calling the Church to Reclaim Kingdom Values over the American Dream
• Christian Life Commission Advocacy Day 
• Houston Northwest Church
• Steve Bezner’s Website
• Steve Bezner on Instagram
• Steve Bezner on X
• Steve Bezner on Facebook

About Dr. Steve Bezner

Steve Bezner has been the Senior Pastor of Houston Northwest Church since January 2013. His passion is to see Houston—and the world—become more like Heaven as people become more like Jesus. 

Steve loves to preach, teach, write, and speak about the Bible in a way that is easy to understand but also challenges people to live the life that God has designed for each of them.

In Houston, Steve works to foster collaboration between local churches, serving on the board of the Houston Church Planting Network (to start new churches locally) and Houston Pastors United We Stand (to foster racial reconciliation). He also works through GlocalNet to build bridges with other faiths in the city, particularly Jews and Muslims.

Steve is passionate about training other pastors. He works with World Hope Ministries International to train pastors in remote global locations, coaches planters and pastors, and teaches seminary occasionally. 

He is married to Joy and has two sons—Ben and Andrew. He holds his B.A. and M.A. from Hardin-Simmons University and his Ph.D. from Baylor University.

About Dr. Mark Turman

Dr. Mark Turman is the Executive Director of Denison Forum and Vice President of Denison Ministries. Among his many duties, Turman is most notably the host of The Denison Forum Podcast. He is also the chief strategist for DF Pastors, which equips pastors and church leaders to understand and transform today’s culture.

About Denison Forum

Denison Forum exists to thoughtfully engage the issues of the day from a biblical perspective through The Daily Article email newsletter and podcast, The Denison Forum Podcast, as well as many books and additional resources.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

NOTE: This transcript was AI-generated and has not been fully edited. 

[00:00:00] Dr. Mark Turman: You’re listening to the Denison Forum Podcast. I’m Mark Turman, host for today’s conversation. Thanks for coming along as we try to equip you to just think biblically to serve eagerly and to live faithfully as you walk with Christ and as you try to serve him in your opportunities, we’re glad to get to do that with you today to help you and to help all of us to live by faith rather than by fear so that we can be as joyful and as helpful to others as we possibly can.

One of the challenges that God gives us in the life that we live is that we are to be in the world that is in the culture, so to speak, but in the world, but not of the world. That is our daily challenge. In many ways, we’re tempted at times, particularly in our part of the world to blend biblical and cultural values together.

So much to the place that we really lose our uniqueness as Christ followers, that distinctive witness and joy and peace that we have to share with the world. And so, we’re going to talk about that today with one of my friends and colleagues in ministry, Dr. Steve Bezner. Steve is a pastor, a teacher, a writer, a coach, a collaborator.

He leads. Houston Northwest Church. He is also a husband to his wife, Joy, and the father of two sons. And Steve, we’re glad to have you on our podcast today to talk about some really important things. 

[00:01:31] Dr. Steve Bezner: Mark, I’m excited to be here. Thanks so much for having me on today. 

[00:01:35] Dr. Mark Turman: Well, we are glad to get to talk with you.

So you’re in Houston. I’ve I’m a native Texan and have had at least one member of my family that lived in Houston almost every year of my life. So. My daughter lives not far from your church these days. My grandchildren are in the North Houston area. So I’m there all the time. I’ll be there in a few days.

Well, my grandkids are there. So, many people, when they start talking about great cities of the world. They might eventually get around to Houston, but most of them may take, you know, five or six stabs at it before they get to Houston. So from your perspective, tell me what’s great about Houston and maybe what’s great about big cities altogether because Houston is a global city.

[00:02:21] Dr. Steve Bezner: Absolutely. Thanks for asking. I loved it. The opportunity to brag on my city for a second. You know, Steven Kleinberg, who for many years led the Kinder Institute at Rice University, pointed out the fact that Houston in many ways is the future city. the prophetic city for the state of Texas and really in many ways for the nation.

And I love that because he points out the fact that the demographics and the social issues that are taking place within Houston tend to be anywhere from a decade to two decades ahead of most of the other communities in this, in the country. And so I think that if you want to know what a lot of the world is going to look like.

And in or in the United States is gonna look like in 10 years, 20 years, Houston is a great place to be. One of the things that I love and has been a lot of fun has been being a city that is incredibly diverse. We have every nation on the planet represented in our city, and we have all kinds of interesting interactions because of that.

I love that. And I think that cities just give us a great opportunity to really test the viability and the power of the gospel because it is not a place where Christianity is the only option. And so you get to really put Christianity to the test up against every other religion, every other worldview that’s out there.

So I think that it really tests the viability of Christianity on a daily basis. So for me, it’s an exciting place to live. A lot of fun to do ministry here. 

[00:03:53] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, it’s it is got so much to offer, not the least of which is the food. So you got to tell me what your favorite Houston food might be. 

[00:04:01] Dr. Steve Bezner: Oh my gosh, it would be impossible.

You know, maybe, maybe the easy one would just be that there’s an incredibly large Vietnamese community here in Houston. And so I had never really had Vietnamese food until I moved to Houston. So I’ve fallen in love with that. My next door neighbors. When we moved to the city, we’re Vietnamese, and so they spoiled me on homemade Vietnamese food.

That was a lot of fun. But since then, I’ve discovered that I can have pretty much any sort of ethnic cuisine that is available here. So that’s been a, that’s been a good and bad thing for me in a lot of ways. But yeah, it’s great. I love it. 

[00:04:38] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, well, there’s so many good things that we can talk about, but we are not talking about those dreaded Astros that you have down there.

As, as a Rangers fan, it’s just sometimes hard for me to talk about those. 

[00:04:50] Dr. Steve Bezner: Hey, we, we just lost Alex Bregman to to the Red Sox. So I don’t know. You never know. The Rangers may may jump up this year and, and win another one. We’ll have to see. 

[00:05:00] Dr. Mark Turman: Well, we’re hoping. Well, this is a, that’s a good segue to maybe some of the first things I want to talk about, which is you’ve written recently about a lot of things that we want to talk about today.

But as has often been mentioned in these days, we’re very much struggling to try to even move in the direction of biblical unity. We’re so tribal in our orientation these days, and that’s led to a lot of believers, a lot of Christians and churches. that are siloed off from each other, very isolated from one another.

Talk a little bit about what you in your ministry and in your church, what are y’all doing together to promote healthy connections and even collaborations between churches and even beyond churches into different faith groups as well? 

[00:05:46] Dr. Steve Bezner: Yeah. Thanks for asking that, Mark. I think the big thing that we’ve been trying to do is be intentional in crafting community and in making connections with people that are different than ourselves.

Our church, probably like many churches in urban and suburban areas, pardon me, sorry about that, are churches that are really diverse from an opinion perspective. And so we’ve got people that are on both sides of the political aisle. We have people that are probably all along the spectrum on both sides of the political aisle.

And one of the things that we’ve worked really hard to do is just to really foster a sense that Allegiance to Jesus is supreme in that in that world. And so really lean into those relationships rather than allowing those differences to drive us apart. One of the other things we’ve tried to do is really lean in on the area of racial reconciliation.

We have a, a sister church that is maybe a, I don’t know, mile, mile and a half down the road from us who’s predominantly African American. We’ve worked really hard to build relationships there. Over the last 12 years or so. And that’s really pushed us to become more ethnically diverse as a church. Whenever we discovered that we lived in such an ethnically diverse community, one of the things that we recognized was that we needed to really foster that same sort of mindset within the congregation because we ought to look like the community.

where God has placed us and to try to reach that. And then, you know, you mentioned reaching across maybe a more distinct barrier to other faith groups. One of the things that we began to really believe was that you could not share the gospel with people you weren’t in relationship with, and rather than having an antagonistic view towards people of different faith groups we’re in a city where those faith groups are going to be present.

no matter what our opinion is of them. So we thought that it was wisest to build bridges, to make relationships intentionally with them. And God’s really used that and really blessed that. We’ve had the opportunity now to, to really talk about Jesus with people from all different walks of life. And it’s been pretty exciting.

[00:07:51] Dr. Mark Turman: I’ve heard you tell some stories about how like in the great Houston flood of Hurricane Harvey, how some of that got manifested out because one of the things, a lot of, a lot of leaders, church leaders listened to our podcast, Steve, and I’m wondering this. Does all of this really just trigger off of you as the pastor saying, you know what, we need to go get to know that person or that church or that faith leader.

And then hopefully my people will follow. Or has it been more organic than that? Or some of both? 

[00:08:22] Dr. Steve Bezner: I would say it’s a little bit of both. I will say that me Saying that I was working to build those relationships and then doing things like posting it on social media, talking about it from the pulpit, really, in a lot of ways, gave people permission to engage in in a new way in their neighborhoods and in their workplaces.

You know, again, in a city like Houston, we have people who are working for energy corporations, people that are in public schools. People that are in the medical center, they already had relationships with people that were parts of different ethnicities, different faith groups, but whenever we talked about the fact from the pulpit.

That God wants us to be in relationships so that we can really talk openly about the gospel in those relationships. It just really, I feel like, gave a shot of energy and revitalization into those relationships. And that was when we began to notice our church becoming more diverse rapidly. It was when I began hearing more and more stories of people engaging with different faith groups because they They felt like it was something that their church not approved of would be the wrong word, but it was almost like their church was saying, this is who we are.

And as a result, I really think that God began to bless that. 

[00:09:39] Dr. Mark Turman: Steve, you’re, you’re living in obviously an area that is very vulnerable to severe weather, hurricane Harvey and others that we can mention. When I go to visit my daughter, I noticed that more and more of the neighbors have installed generators.

Just for those difficult moments when things come, how have, you know, and I’ve, I’ve recently been reading in the Bible, just how God kind of arranges circumstances that create opportunities, if you will talk about that from a standpoint of how you’ve seen that happen in your ministry, how just the circumstances of things like weather drive the opportunity for the church to really step forward in service and in shared suffering, that kind of thing.

How’s that look for y’all? 

[00:10:27] Dr. Steve Bezner: You know, I think that whenever there’s need in the community there’s always a couple of different responses that churches can take. And one of those responses is to look after our own, which I would say is a fine response. I mean, we, we definitely want to take care of the people in our congregation, but what we’ve discovered maybe maybe more by accident that I want to admit is the fact that whenever we raised, our gaze from simply within the walls of our church, but into the broader community to offer help.

There was a receptivity to hearing the gospel message and to becoming part of the community of faith that I think we were surprised to discover. So I tell the story in the book, but whenever Hurricane Harvey happened and we started serving, we were, I had never heard this term before, but we started mudding out houses, which is basically just pushing all the mud out of the house.

removing drywall, ripping up flooring, this kind of thing. And so you just really begin to notice the sorts of things that people are purchasing because everybody’s buying the same thing. If you were flooded, that kind of stuff. So I don’t, I couldn’t even begin to tell you how many houses our congregation mudded out over the course of probably two months following Hurricane Harvey.

I’m gonna, I’m gonna ballpark you on that literally in the hundreds if not thousands, but one of my church members was at a grocery store and he noticed a woman wearing a hijab. So obviously a Muslim woman. She was purchasing the sort of supplies that led him to believe, oh this, this woman So he just knew, well, you know, we’re out doing this work in the community.

I want to offer help. And so all of those kinds of things that we had talked about loving across faith lines loving across, across ethnic lines, serving in the community kind of came together in that moment. So he said, Hey, I noticed what you’re purchasing there. I wanted to see if we could come help you.

Our church would love to come, you know, to serve in any way. And the woman’s response was so great. It was so fun. She said, Oh, thank you so much. Actually a group of people from a church called Houston Northwest have already come and cleaned out our house. And you know, they, they’ve served. And then I love this line.

She said, I think if everyone knew that this was what Christians like. were like, everyone would want to be a Christian. And it was really a, a formative moment for our congregation because we recognized that many of the people that we had tended to think of as people who would not be interested in the gospel, would not be interested in faith.

They, they wouldn’t want to buy what we’re selling, so to speak. Maybe they had those opinions because we believed the wrong things about them as well. And if we were willing to just kind of put ourselves out there and show this is what we stand for, this is what we believe in to demonstrate love, that there would be a receptivity and there would be an openness to the gospel that would really surprise us.

And so we’ve kind of seen examples of that just playing out over and over. Across the last decade plus, it’s been really fun to watch, watch the Lord work through that. 

[00:13:28] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, it’s just such a great living out of the model that we saw in Jesus, right? That he would meet physical needs in order to have the opportunity to meet spiritual needs.

Absolutely. And to be able to connect those two things. Steve, in your book you recently wrote that I just pulled this quote out. The American church, let me shift the conversation a little bit. The American church as a whole struggles in finding its identity completely in Jesus. Unpack that statement for me that so many times, you know, the buzzword seemingly over the last couple of years has been identity in so many different ways.

But this idea that We’re struggling to really, really embrace biblical Christianity in its full expression. 

[00:14:11] Dr. Steve Bezner: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think that identity has become the watchword, the buzzword of the last few years, identity politics, and the idea of embodied experience being the marker for truth.

And one of the things that I really just began to notice was that there’s a source of four or a set of forces that have become the predominant identity shapers in the lives of not just people, but really Christians as well. And I just would probably say that shorthand for those most of them. Or media driven, which were either YouTube, social media or cable news, and essentially people began to have their identity, so to speak, formed by one or all of those things.

And so the algorithm would tell them who it was that they were supposed to be and would assume these would be the voices that they would want to hear. It would shape their perception about the world and how to interact and all those kinds of things. So what we just kind of wanted to push back on was to say.

It’s not that having opinions on any number of issues were, were not important, but that our first and primary set of identity making ought to come straight from the scriptures and come straight from who Jesus was. And so we just kind of took a step back, said, you know, let’s look at. Jesus’s disciples.

And the fact of the matter was, was that Jesus had people who would have been considered kind of revolutionary, you know, a zealot, he had a tax collector that would have been pro government and and both of those individuals took their identities that would have been, you know, political in nature. And made those subservient to their identity in Christ.

And I think that if we could see that in both Matthew and Judas, then we can imagine a reality where that can play out in the local church. And so we’ve just decided to kind of try and tease it out in that regard. 

[00:16:06] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, really helpful to do that. You know, Steve, I, I was thinking even this morning, you know, getting ready for our conversation that if you, if you had known those 12 apostles, And you were gonna, if you were gonna say, okay, which one of these is most likely to, to betray Jesus?

I’m, I’m really thinking that you probably wouldn’t have picked Judas. And the reason I think that is because he was entrusted with their common purse. He kept the money for the group. And usually you don’t invest, you know, that kind of responsibility and that kind of trust in somebody that’s not, showing themselves to be strongly loyal.

So I think there was probably a great deal of surprise when they discovered that Judas was the one that had betrayed him in the Garden of Gethsemane, that type of thing. But it kind of leads me to this idea that I think all Christians, no matter where they live around the world. are being persecuted or attacked by Satan in some ways.

And, and we talk about this at Denison Forum a lot. What is the unique way that the devil is trying to prevent us from knowing Jesus well and following him fully? So, I don’t think any of us woke up particularly one day and said, you know what? I want to start listening to the world rather than listening to Jesus.

And depending on when you came into faith, you may have brought a lot of baggage of values that you’re going to need to offload. You mentioned technology a minute ago. Is it technology? Is it more than technology that the devil is kind of using to create a strategic way of leading Christians away from the deepest forms of biblical values?

And compromising with something less that would be what we might call American values or as your title says, the American dream. What’s the, what do you see as the devil’s unique strategy here? 

[00:18:04] Dr. Steve Bezner: I think that if I could sum it up, it would probably be to have either power or influence in the greater culture as what is really trying to seduce.

The American church. Hmm. I, I, most of the arguments that I see these days are around either sexual ethics or around government spending. And and I know that both of those are charged in a lot of different ways. What’s fascinating is is that just the pursuit of influence over those two things and how they play out in the public sphere has I, I would say, consumed a disproportionate amount of energy in church circles.

Certainly more energy than evangelistic efforts, particularly as far as the conversation piece. You know, I, I certainly remember when the bulk of conversations that we had as far as church leaders was surrounding how to be effective evangelistically. How do we reach our community? What’s the best way to format our worship services?

How do we communicate the gospel? You know, what kind of sermons should we be preaching? I just hear fewer and fewer of those conversations these days. It’s really all about. cultural influence. And it’s as if we’ve got all in on the culture war. And I would never want to say that those things don’t matter at all.

I just think that they have risen to a place. of disproportionate influence, and I think as a result, it’s really easy for us to lose our way. 

[00:19:34] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, and it has become, in so many ways, that we’ve diluted the great values of Jesus’s kingdom and this thing that he called abundant life that he really wants us to have that in many ways, I wonder if we even knew that it was happening.

That kind of snuck up on us is it just seems like it’s the devil’s way of working in Western or American Christianity in a unique way from what you would find how he might try to up in Christians in other parts of the world. Part of this conversation, Steve has so much to do with this American ideal of individualism, what some have written about called hyper individualism Carl Truman and others.

Talk about that as one of those things that Americans are typically known for, but can be detrimental to our identifying with Jesus whole scale. 

[00:20:27] Dr. Steve Bezner: Yeah, that’s, that’s such a fascinating topic. I really think that, you know, the beauty of Americanism is that, you know, they have the American dream in the sense that anyone can rise above his or her station to succeed in a way that supersedes their own.

the previous generation or from from where it was that they came. So in that sense, it’s beautiful. It’s opportunity and it’s it’s a really, really powerful good. At the same time, I think the shadow side of that American dream is the fact that sometimes we become so self absorbed that the idea of self actualization, discovering who we are, so to speak, You already mentioned kind of the buzzword of identity.

I think we can just start to discover ourselves, so to speak, our emotional side who we are from a personality perspective. You know, what are the things, my passions, what are the things that I love and enjoy to a place? That it can really become un, unhelpful and unhealthy and then it just leads to a place where we’re fragmented and we don’t really care about the people that are really in physical proximity to us.

And you know, it’s only exacerbated by the internet because then I can talk to people, listen to people who think the way that I think. And as a result, the people who live next door or who go to my kids schools. They, they can have completely different perspectives, but I can. isolate myself away from them because I have the luxury of retreating into my hyper individualistic way of viewing the world.

And as a result, it just creates deeper division and greater fragmentation. I really think that’s kind of the thing that we’re up against right now. 

[00:22:16] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. It’s just kind of amazing because of the miracles of technology, right? That we can We can be in our neighborhoods and yet we can be mentally and emotionally a million miles away by just tapping into a screen and, you know, all of a sudden national and even global issues become the thing that we think about and we don’t even talk to the people that are living right next door to us.

Which, which kind of leads me, what have y’all, what are y’all discovering about we talked about it from the standpoint of, of struggling together, suffering together, serving together through something like a hurricane recovery. But what is just the lessons of hospitality that seems to be one of those great Christian truths and ideas that we’ve really just disconnected from, which is just this fundamental opportunity of, of knowing the people who are nearest to you.

Are y’all growing in that way? 

[00:23:13] Dr. Steve Bezner: You know, probably not as much as we ought to be. I think the answer is yes, but we have a. a ton more room to grow. I think that the reality of the situation is that we find it easier and easier to believe that we extend hospitality by, you know, giving people a gift card.

You know, or by sending a text rather than some sort of embodied presence. And it’s not that a gift card isn’t appreciated and a text isn’t appreciated. But I think that we would all agree that there is a difference between getting a door dash gift card and getting someone bringing us a home cooked meal.

And I think that we know that there is a difference between texting someone and inviting them into our homes to sit around our tables. And it’s, it’s a really interesting phenomenon in the sense that in one way, we’re hyper connected. Then at the same time, we’re so distracted by the relationships on our devices that we oftentimes miss the power of physical presence.

And I think that when you, when you think about our church we have to fight for those kinds of things to really push people to live in relationship. And I, I’m certain other churches are, are the same way because we are. We are easily distracted by everything except the things that are right in front of us.

[00:24:38] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, there’s just so much coming at us at, at every, at every front. Everywhere we turn. A moment ago you mentioned just the kind of the beauty and the strength of that American spirit. Steve, one of the things I’m concerned about is that a lot of us spend a lot of time diagnosing American Christianity, diagnosing the churches that we lead and that type of thing.

I just wonder if you have a, a word that you would want to share about what you think the American church may be getting right. What do you, what do you think is something we could really celebrate about what’s going on. What, what can our expression in the West and in America, our expression of, of walking with Christ, what could we recommend to some other part of the world that may be missing an aspect that we, we could help them with?

I 

[00:25:31] Dr. Steve Bezner: think that one thing I love about American Christians is the fact that they do want to do what reaches the community. And I think that that ingenuity can obviously be misapplied and can be abused. But really, when I look at what Americanism brings to the faith that is unique and appreciated is the fact that they will do what needs to be done to bring the gospel to people wherever they are.

I think we could probably talk about the fact that, you know, again, we, we over apply organizational principles or we, we miss out on the spiritual side of that sometimes. But I really do think that there is a, a care for evangelistic fervor. that and trying to be contextually appropriate that American churches are tuned into in a way that oftentimes we under appreciate.

So I think that that’s something I really like about the American church. I guess if I had to say another thing, I would also say that there is a a strong emphasis in the American church on the younger generation always. And I think that students and kids always get a an extra amount of love and attention in churches.

And I really think it’s one of the reasons that the American church continues to, against all odds, Keep moving forward. So I, I think those are a couple of things that come to mind. 

[00:27:00] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. And I, I love you pointing that out. I remember it took me a little while after I started pastoring before some parents finally got it into my head.

You have to start with the question, what about the kids? And, and if you’re going to spend an inordinate amount of money in ministry in a local church, it ought to be directed probably toward the kids in many ways. Because they are obviously so important to the kingdom. So important to all of us. Not to the point of idolatrizing children, as sometimes we’re tempted to do but how can we do everything we can to kind of get them exposed to the greatness of the gospel and to the person of Jesus as we, you know, we learn about Timothy from his earliest days.

He knew the scriptures. Let’s talk about some of the more specific areas that you call out in your book. We know that the Bible as pastors, we know the Bible talks a lot about money, about the power of money and the dangers of money. Materialism, consumerism within our culture is a very big idol.

What are some strategies that you’ve discovered as you work through this book, as you’ve been leading your church? What are some strategies that you have discovered that might help people to get loose from this idol? 

[00:28:15] Dr. Steve Bezner: Yeah. Thanks for asking that. I would say a couple of things. Number one would be don’t relegate talking about money to a sermon series once every two to three years.

I know that different churches do things in different ways, but we certainly talk about giving every single Sunday. We talk about where giving is used, how giving is helpful. Here’s something that your dollars went to, so that just gives us an excuse. But anytime that I can work it into a sermon to just say, here we see how God changes hearts, etc.

And, and then this one might be, I don’t know, a little more controversial. But one of the things that as we teach on giving from time to time, I’ll just regularly say, This is what joy and I do. And then I’ll just lay it out. You know, we give 10 percent of what, what we make to the church. And then we give above and beyond that to different organizations.

And what’s funny is, is that I’m not saying this is what you have to do, but I am consistently surprised at the number of people who hear me say, this is what we do. And they go, well, I mean, if my pastor is doing that, yeah. Maybe I ought to consider doing the same and those kinds of things I think are, are helpful.

The one thing I would say that is never helpful when it comes to money is to avoid talking about it entirely. And I think that there’s so many people that think, you know, God will put that on people’s hearts and they’ll give what they’re going to give. And I just think we, we wouldn’t do that in any other area.

And so we need to talk about it. Maybe last thing I would say, Mark, is that we have a pretty specific ministry that a significant portion of our church’s proceeds go to that is designed to help those who need financial assistance. So we are able to say very openly the dollars that you give are not given simply to mission, vision, church planting, programming.

But they are given to help the people in our community who find themselves in need. And people really, honestly appreciate that. And we’ve seen several people come to faith over the years through that ministry, become part of our church and other churches as well. 

[00:30:35] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, it’s really kind of interesting.

You know, you and I have lived long enough and pastored long enough that We went through that season where everybody wanted to get rid of the offering in the context of worship, and that that was not a strategic thing to do. Now we’ve seemed to kind of come back around to that and starting to learn some fresh lessons about talking about generosity and grateful giving from the standpoint of worship.

And celebration on how important that is. And and the other side of this, and I’d be curious to know your perspective on this. We’ve had a fairly long, maybe at least two decades long journey of trying to help people with financial literacy as a way of delivering them from. financial slavery, if you will.

Has that been something that’s been useful in the context of your church? 

[00:31:28] Dr. Steve Bezner: Absolutely. We’re, we’re using a curriculum right now that has does that very thing. It’s by a family called the Lottex. And that curriculum is a curriculum that I think the last time I, I looked, we had, I think a Wednesday night group that was meeting and then two Sunday morning groups that were meeting going through that because people want to be generous, but they’ve discovered that they have to have a better handle on their cash flow, their day to day finances if they’re going to actually be generous.

And what we’ve discovered is that people are not looking to be greedy or stingy. They do need some help. And if we’ll give those kind of, you know, really basic sorts of just practical tips, then they will lean into those and then the dividends pay pay off in the long run. 

[00:32:19] Dr. Mark Turman: And I love that, that lesson of as a leader both as a pastor and as the leader of the church, that you’re kind of giving people permission and also giving them examples.

I’ve, you know, I’ve had a couple of examples of where it was not really helpful to give people specific amounts, but to give them percentages of here’s, here’s what, as you said, my wife and I do again, not talking about, you know, actual dollars, but more talking about percentages, but then. just giving them a working example that they can connect to and say, well, okay, that looks like something that might be doable in the context of where I am and how I could be a part of this.

Steve, I, I have written myself a little bit about the opportunity and the beauty of biblical sexuality. I I found it intriguing that when I was working my way through your, your book, that you were like, I just, I didn’t even really want to talk about this subject at all. But tell us a little bit, you know, I heard somebody say recently that, Hey, if you go to inquire about any kind of faith, you should not be surprised that they’re going to talk about.

The sexual aspects of your life that you should just kind of expect that to be happening. Read in the last couple of years, several books that would point in the direction that what we call generally the sexual revolution that becomes so prominent in the 1960s is in some ways burning itself out.

What do you think we need to offer to our culture right now in terms of a more beautiful sexual ethic that is distinctly rooted in the Bible? 

[00:33:58] Dr. Steve Bezner: Yeah, yeah. One, one of the reasons that I, I said in the, the book that I, I didn’t even really want to talk about it is because I feel like it’s become so charged.

That people can think that they see where you’re headed and then discount anything that you say on any other topic. But what I tried to do in the book was to point out the fact that sex is never described as ultimate in the Bible and our culture perceives it as ultimate in almost every way.

It becomes a defining characteristic people categorize their life. Under a heading of sexuality whenever you watch, you know, really any kind of show that is, you know, on, you know, Netflix or a movie or whatever the, the sexual act is always considered the culmination of that relationship kind of the pinnacle of that relationship.

And so I, I wanted to demonstrate the fact that that is a story that is not bought into in the scripture. But that sex is instead intended to be a signpost to point us toward the ecstasy of union with Christ and the fact that really sex is, in many ways, Intended to point us towards the deeper beauty of intimacy through relationship and through emotional connection.

And I think that what you said there, Mark, about the beauty of the sexual ethic is that it is intended to point us to something greater. And if we see that. Within the design of sexuality, if we see that within the emotional connection that’s intended within sexuality, then we can really begin to see that it’s intended to draw us into a sort of connection with one another that ought to create within us a yearning for God.

And I think that that’s really what’s what’s behind. Kind of the chapter that I wrote and what I think is kind of the bigger Christian vision for sexuality. I love the fact that what you said is that every faith is going to, going to ask about that because I think that The way that we view that definitely ties into the way that we view the world and yeah, so many people, I think, have, have it in their mind that, that that is the end all be all of human existence and that if you, if you’re not sexually fulfilled, then you can’t be fulfilled, period.

[00:36:26] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, and I love what you called out in the book that, you know, the Bible does not say that sexuality is ultimate and in fact, Calls out this life of singleness and celibacy as something that can be totally and completely satisfying but has to be still in that context of learning what sex is intended to point us to, which is the beauty and wonder of intimacy with God and with others.

that doesn’t have to be about sexual activity. You know, we, we know if we, if we pay attention to church history, that at times in the past, those that chose to be single and celibate as an act of Of faith in their relationship with Christ were among the most esteemed people in the church, unfortunately, we generally live in a generation where you’re looked upon as strange or unhealthy or or in some ways weird if you’re not pursuing this idol of of sex and sexuality.

And I love the way you call out that opportunity within the church. Are you seeing that being embraced in the ministries that you’re connected with this, this idea that there is a sacred sexuality that is, is legitimate in the form of singleness? 

[00:37:45] Dr. Steve Bezner: I, I would say so, yes, I think that we have more and more young people in our congregation that are single longer, and we have a pretty sizable population of our congregation that are single for a variety of reasons, either they’ve been widowed, or, or you know, were divorced, and to find that they are loved and valued within the church, and to find that they are invited around the tables, Of the congregation and to find that they are considered to be part of the family, I would say, gives them the strength to feel as if they do not need to pursue sexual fulfillment as ultimate fulfillment, but instead that they can find relational and spiritual fulfillment that gives them what they need.

And I would just really say that watching that play out in our church has given me hope. That the Christian sexual ethic has, has legs to run in, in the 21st century, because when you mentioned earlier, Mark, that the sexual revolution is in many ways burning itself out, I think that it can burn itself out into almost a a nihilistic perspective of frustration almost a doom and gloom perspective.

Or it can bend this direction in the, in the Christian vision of reality, which is that the higher plane of emotional and spiritual connection can be discovered. And I, I really think that it gives the church. A really great avenue to explore. 

[00:39:21] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, I think there’s just a tremendous opportunity there because like I said, you can imagine the frustration of, of people if they, if they believe that sexuality is ultimate and they discover that it is not, they could become, they could become frustrated that then there must not be anything that is of any real meaning if that doesn’t work out for them.

I want to pull another quote out of your book. and get you to comment on this relative to some of what you wrote about success and suffering. Part of what you wrote in your book says this, I wonder if the church is declining in the West because the church in the West has become too successful, not at discipleship or evangelism, but at identifying with Western culture.

In a way that made the church lose its distinctive personality. What is it about suffering that we are so determined to avoid as Christians living in the West? 

[00:40:19] Dr. Steve Bezner: Yeah, you know, it kind of goes back to that. Some of the great things about Americanism is that all boats rise and specifically economically, I think that many of us are experiencing You know, we’re, we’re the wealthiest country in the history of the world materially speaking.

And I think that as a result, we, we organize our lives around protecting the comfort that that economic surplus has created. And so, for instance, you know, if I, if, if I went to many places in the jungles of South America or into the Bush and Africa, the concept of insurance would make no sense. But, but we hedge our bets trying to protect the things that we’ve worked so hard to gain.

And and, and we live our lives accordingly. As a result, whenever we do experience suffering, it’s really difficult for us to know how it is that we’re supposed to respond, just speaking as Americans generally, because we’ve kind of been told the story that if we live our lives, According to a set of principles, then everything will go up and to the right, and we’ll become more successful, we’ll become wealthier, etc.

And I just really think that the Christian story tells us You’re going to suffer. It’s going to happen. You get to choose in advance if you’re going to handle that suffering by connecting with Christ and by allowing him to walk with you through the valley of the shadow of death And I think that one of the great things of the Christian gospel is just preparing our hearts Stealing our hearts now to say well suffering is going to come.

So how will I handle it? Whereas I think that those who are apart from Christ don’t have that sort of perspective. And so I just really think that, yeah, if we’ll lean into that, it again becomes sort of, sort of this just beautiful picture to to those that are outside the church to look and say, okay, that.

They give that faith some credence. I’d be interested in knowing more. 

[00:42:23] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. And I think, you know, just that honest reality that Christ and the Bible brings to us is something we need to just talk about over and over again, that because we’re living in this in between time of, of, of a broken world that is in the process of being redeemed.

There is going to be suffering. And so there are ways for us to properly and prayerfully prepare for that and To not be surprised and not to be undone When it comes but to know that it’s just a part of the way the world is right now But that God is always in the midst of it and is always Available to help us through it Steve, kind of getting to the place where we can wrap up for a little bit here in a moment.

But I’ve run into this way of thinking more recently. I’ve read about it in the, in the history of the church, but I’ve run into it more frequently in, in present conversations, which is this idea that it sometimes feels like That Jesus simply set us up for failure and frustration because he painted a picture of a kingdom And of an abundant life john 10 10, but those things are really out of our reach can you give us a word that can help christians kind of what we were just talking about, but We, we are called to live in this tension between the now and the not yet of Christ’s kingdom between the values that he articulated that are so beautiful, life giving and freeing, but are always not complete in this world.

And so we’re, we’re required to live in this tension. Can you help us? understand how we’re supposed to do that. 

[00:44:08] Dr. Steve Bezner: I guess I can, can take a stab at it. I don’t know that any of us can fully grasp that, but I just think that one of the things that helped me was when I started reading through the New Testament and just noticing that you mentioned the word life, I think that over and over we see that in the New Testament.

Jesus came to bring life and really, if you go from the book of Genesis forward, I mean, it’s just life over and over. Right? And then at the same time, the enemy comes to bring death. And really, those are the two options that are before us or life and death. And I think that if we lean into the things that give life, and I would say that those things are love, in service, in relationship and community and church and worship and prayer.

If I lean into those things, I’ll have, I’ll have life. I think that anyone who’s been around church for any amount of time has gone, you know, for instance, on a mission trip and they have seen people who have quote unquote, far less, but yet at the same time have far more. And it’s because they are experiencing life.

And I really believe that while we will never experience those things, as you said, in complete fashion, this side of the return of Jesus. I really do think that oftentimes if we will allow the Bible’s definition of life to meet us, then we can experience a deeper satisfaction than really anyone. You know, the richest person on the planet, the most successful person that we know, they’re not going to be able to have life like that apart from God.

And yeah, it’s really become something that I’m more and more convinced of. 

[00:46:02] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, I think you’re absolutely on the right track. Just getting to the place where we define what life is really supposed to be from a biblical perspective and not from a worldly perspective or any other Definition that we might get it give to it.

Yeah, I’ll give you the last word here, Steve. What gives you hope about the American church and you can’t just say Jesus. You have to say something more than that. No, Jesus is enough. 

[00:46:29] Dr. Steve Bezner: Yeah, yeah, he is. You know, I see pockets right now that really give me hope of a return to the enormous importance of prayer in the local church.

I see it specifically in, in younger expressions of the church, which gives me even more hope in the sense that less emphasis on programming and, and more of an emphasis on encountering and knowing the person of God. And I really believe that those are the seeds of revival. And I don’t think that God has done pruning the church in the West, but I do think that whenever that pruning has reached its completion, that if the seeds of prayer have been planted, then there is a harvest on the other side of that.

And I think that it will come through those that are seeking to meet the Lord. in a pure expression like prayer. And that’s really something that I want to try to push our church towards. And it’s really something that that I see more and more leaders doing as well. And that, that encourages me.

[00:47:34] Dr. Mark Turman: That’s a good word. Good word, folks. That’s Steve Bezner and he is the pastor of Houston Northwest church. His book is Your Jesus is Too American. calling the church to reclaim kingdom values over the American dream. You can find it, right, Steve? All of the major book distributors can get you the book, right?

[00:47:53] Dr. Steve Bezner: Absolutely. Absolutely. Would, would appreciate anybody who wants to read it. 

[00:47:57] Dr. Mark Turman: All right. Absolutely. Steve, I wanted to also get you to just help me plug for a moment. A couple of weeks from now, You’re going to be sharing in an event in Austin, Texas called the Christian Life Commission Advocacy Day that is hosted by an organization that you and I are a part of called the Texas Baptist Convention.

If you’re not a Baptist, that may sound strange to you, but this is a group within our denomination that does ministry. Advocating for a lot of different things, not the least of which being legislation that will be built on biblical principles and that type of thing. But you’re going to be a part of a, of a day on March the 3rd in Austin.

And you’re going to share the platform with Tim Alberta, who’s been on our podcast and also our friend Curtis Chang. Talk a little bit about what that day is going to be like. And we’ll put all the information about how people can connect to that. If they want to join us on March the 3rd, but tell us a little bit about your part in that day.

[00:48:55] Dr. Steve Bezner: Yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m really excited to be part of this and Dr. Katie Fruge is, is leading out in many ways on that. What she’s really kind of charged me to do is to, to bring a shorthand version of what I believe would be a way that the church can be a force for positive change in the world. And so I want to kind of take some of the things that we’ve talked about today, but some other pieces as well, and talk about practical how to’s of making a difference in our communities.

that is not simply centered around the culture war, but doesn’t ignore the fact that there is a culture war that’s happening. And so I’m going to have that discussion. I don’t know exactly what Curtis and Tim are going to talk about, but I would imagine that They’ve got incredible works. I know great things.

And the whole idea is that the church is intended to be God’s force for kingdom redemption and Shalom in the world, and that we should allow our churches to participate in that. And so I’m, I’m excited about it. I really hope to see you there and and anybody who wants to participate. I think it’s going to be a lot of fun.

[00:50:07] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, we’re looking forward. Denison Forum is going to be a sponsor of the event as as I said, Texas Baptist hosting, but we get to be a sponsor and right down the line of what we love to talk about at Denison Forum, which is cultivating flourishing communities. cultivating flourishing families and believers.

We want to be a part of that in every way. And we hope that this gathering on March the 3rd will help us with that. Again, you’ll be able to find the details to that in the show notes for today’s episode. Steve, thank you for the work. Thank you for the conversation today, and look forward to connecting with you in Austin as well.

And thank you to our audience for being a part of our conversation. We hope that this has been an encouragement. Go find Steve’s book. Your Jesus is Too American, and that will help you grow closer to him as well. God bless you. We’ll see you next time on the Denison forum podcast.