Dr. Mark Turman gathers with Josh Miller and Conner Jones for a heartfelt roundtable on some of the cultural and spiritual tensions many of us feel this time of year. Together, they reflect on the quiet ache of holiday loneliness, the pressure that often shadows our celebrations, and why intentional, grace-filled connection matters more than ever.
The conversation also widens to consider the ethical questions surrounding cloning—what it means for human dignity, and how Christians can respond with both conviction and compassion. And in a hopeful turn, they look at the surprising spiritual momentum among younger generations, from increased Bible engagement to renewed interest in the church among Millennials and Gen Z.
It’s a gentle, honest, and encouraging dialogue—one that offers clarity for the holidays, wisdom for navigating complex issues, and a reminder that God is at work in places we might not expect.
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Topics
- (00:00): Introduction
- (01:18): Favorite Christmas memories and traditions
- (04:12): Discussing holiday loneliness
- (06:25): The impact of loneliness on health
- (15:14): Practical steps to combat loneliness
- (20:32): Cloning and genetic engineering
- (28:01): Genetic testing and ethical dilemmas
- (31:55): The sanctity of life and genetic manipulation
- (36:23): The future of gene editing
- (37:49): Spiritual reflections on genetic engineering
- (38:50): Cultural shifts in holiday celebrations
- (44:02): Rising church attendance among younger generations
- (54:19): Encouraging faith and community engagement
Resources
- Ask Us Anything: [email protected]
- How has Denison Forum impacted your faith?
- Year End Giving
- Why are so many young people struggling to find hope—and how can we help?
- Why are teens sadder, lonelier, and more depressed than ever before?
- If you’re suffering from the “friendship recession,” you’re not alone
- “My closest friend is a fish”: Responding to the loneliness and anxiety of our day
- Why is loneliness as dangerous as smoking?
- How the church can solve “touch-starvation”: An excerpt from “Digital Church in a Lonely World” by Benjamin Windle
- Tom Brady Cloned His Dog. Here’s How Much it Cost — and How to Do It Yourself
- Genetically Engineered Babies Are Banned. Tech Titans Are Trying to Make One Anyway. – WSJ
- A ‘generational reversal’ is underway: Gen Z and millennials are now the most church-going groups, study finds
- A ‘generational reversal’ is underway: Gen Z and millennials are now the most church-going groups, study finds
- What true revival looks like
- Something Is Stirring in Christian America, and It’s Making Me Nervous – The New York Times
About Josh Miller
Josh Miller is the Chief of Staff and Chief Strategy Officer at Denison Ministries. He is also a disciple of Jesus, husband, and father. A Christian leader, author, and songwriter, Josh brings over 20 years of ministry experience—from global worship tours to pastoral leadership. He lives in Plano, Texas with his wife and two sons, fueled by faith, craft coffee, and a love for tacos.
About Conner Jones
Conner Jones is the Director of Performance Marketing at Denison Ministries and Co-Hosts Denison Forum’s “Culture Brief” podcast. He graduated from Dallas Baptist University in 2019 with a degree in Business Management. Conner passionately follows politics, sports, pop-culture, entertainment, and current events. He enjoys fishing, movie-going, and traveling the world with his wife and son.
About Dr. Mark Turman
Mark Turman, DMin, serves as the Executive Director of Denison Forum, where he leads with a passion for equipping believers to navigate today’s complex culture with biblical truth. He is best known as the host of The Denison Forum Podcast and the lead pastor of the Possum Kingdom Chapel, the in-person congregation of Denison Ministries.
Dr. Turman is the coauthor of Sacred Sexuality: Reclaiming God’s Design and Who Am I? What the Bible Says About Identity and Why it Matters. He earned his undergraduate degree from Howard Payne University in Brownwood, Texas, and received his Master of Divinity from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. He later completed his Doctor of Ministry at George W. Truett Theological Seminary at Baylor University in Waco.
Before joining Denison Forum, Mark served as a pastor for 35 years, including 25 years as the founding pastor of Crosspoint Church in McKinney, Texas.
Mark and his high school sweetheart, Judi, married in 1986. They are proud parents of two adult children and grandparents to three grandchildren.
About Denison Forum
Denison Forum exists to thoughtfully engage the issues of the day from a biblical perspective through The Daily Article email newsletter and podcast, the Faith & Clarity podcast, as well as many books and additional resources.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
NOTE: This transcript was AI-generated and has not been fully edited.
Dr. Mark Turman: [00:00:00] Welcome to Faith and Clarity. I’m Mark Turman, your host for today’s conversation. We’re glad you’re along with us as we have a round table discussion today talking about holiday loneliness, holiday stress. We’re gonna touch on cloning if you’re looking for a gift to give to somebody for Christmas, and also some conversation if we have time about possible revival.
Being the thing we remember most about 2025. We wanna help you to be equipped not only for the holidays and for the joy of Jesus’ birthday, but how to find hope on a daily basis through the headlines of this season, and to find some clarity in the midst of today’s cultural confusion. So my guests today are familiar to you, Josh Miller, who is our Chief of Staff at Dentist and Ministries, and Connor Jones, who you may know from the culture brief.
Podcast, one of our other sister podcasts, and also the director of Performance Marketing for Denon Ministries. Guys, welcome [00:01:00] to the podcast. Thanks for coming back. Glad to be here.
Conner Jones: Yeah, glad to be here. Thanks, mark.
Dr. Mark Turman: That was almost a near unanimous synonymous welcome to e each of you. So yeah, welcome to December and the near end of 2025, which just seems amazing.
So as we get started today my icebreaker question is what will you what do you like best about Christmas and what will you remember most about 2025? Who wants to go first?
Conner Jones: I can kick us off and I’ll just, I’ll just say the best thing about Christmas is just the family time. Always for me and this year specifically my little 1-year-old son, it’s not his first Christmas, but last year he was a little too small to remember literally anything or enjoy it.
But now the fact that we get to give him some gifts that he’s gonna get to play with and all that is gonna be fun. And also, mark, just one of my favorite traditions is walking into a Williams and Sonoma store and getting the smell of Christmas when you walk right in and their samples of their peppermint bark.
That’s one of the [00:02:00] best Christmas traditions every year.
Dr. Mark Turman: Pretty cool. What will you remember about 2025, Connor?
Conner Jones: Like I said, I just think seeing my son glow up when he gets to see presents under the tree that are for him and get to play with the toys and, you know, be amazed by all the Christmas lights.
I, I’m just excited to see that just joy on his face. It’s gonna be fun. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, for me it’s I really Christmas trees and just always intrigued by how people decorate them and really love the outdoor Christmas trees. And I think I’ll remember this year for what my wife and I are calling the pit stop year.
We’ve had various health issues this year. I had major surgery for the very first time in my life, and we’re gonna hope that all of that is successful and that we don’t have another pit stop year for a very long time. Josh, what do you like about Christmas and what are you gonna remember for 2025?
Josh Miller: I mean, my favorite thing is always the Christmas lights. About Christmas. I’m one of the weird guys that has their Christmas lights up probably a little bit. [00:03:00] Too early like right after Halloween, the time change. Once the time change really kicks in, I’m ready for Christmas lights. It’s getting dark early.
It just feels depressing, but you get the Christmas lights up and it turns this kind of dark season into something beautiful and nostalgic. I like the Williams Sonoma reference. I didn’t expect to hear that today, but I’m here for it. So yeah, big fan of the Christmas lights and then kind of. I guess maybe on the opposite end of what you mentioned, mark, around what you’ll remember.
This was actually kind of our most normal year we’ve had in a while for as a family in terms of last year our son had heart surgery, which kind of, we knew that was coming for most of 2024, and so that really put a damper. And some anxiety into the entire year. And so to go through 2025 and everybody’s relatively healthy, a pretty normal year.
We’re just, I’m just thankful to have kind of survived a whole year without some sort of major chaotic something happening within the family. You know, after going through some of that stuff, you really appreciate the years that just [00:04:00] feel normal.
Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. Absolutely. So yeah, hopefully we round out the year in a really strong way and, and 2026 is hopefully fairly calm.
As we move into it alright, let’s jump in. We had two or three co topics that we wanted to try to cover. And Christmas is a unique time, it’s a unique season but it also has some unique struggles. Josh, you mentioned you wanna talk a little bit about loneliness and some of the dangers of loneliness that accompany this season.
Tell us what you’ve been thinking about.
Josh Miller: Yeah. You know, I’ve been reading some some articles lately regarding just how prevalent this issue of loneliness is in our society right now. And you look at this time of year specifically, and it really is a litmus test for the state of our relationships.
So if you have relationships that are healthy, thriving, this season can be full of joy, celebration, gratitude. But if. Those relationships aren’t healthy. You have either family dynamics that are, you [00:05:00] know, full of drama or maybe you’re just, those relationships are, are distant. This. What should be kind of the most wonderful time of the year according to the song, becomes really actually one of the most stressful and difficult and painful times of the year.
And just been thinking about what that looks like for us right now as, as believers, as followers of Jesus. How do we both, for those who are experiencing loneliness. What do you do about that? And then for those who maybe your family situation, your friendship situation is healthy and thriving, how do we be intentional about serving those who may be in their most difficult time of the year in terms of wrestling with relationships or loneliness?
You know, one of the, the, the stats that really kind of sparked this for me was from Pew Research where it says, one in six Americans say they feel lonely or isolated all or most of the time. Six. That’s not even just on. On occasion, I feel lonely, but 16% say they are lonely. Most or all of the time, it’s equal for [00:06:00] men and women.
And about almost 40% say they sometimes feel lonely. And so this is a big, a big issue. It’s a, it’s, it’s all over the place. It’s not just an occasional thing where, you know, a person here or there may feel lonely, but this is actually pervasive through our society. So much so that even the Department of Health and Human Services and the Surgeon General have called this an urgent public health crisis.
And. What’s fascinating to me as well is not only do we, you know, see loneliness as this sort of maybe a mental health type issue where I just feel down you can kind of go, it just makes maybe. Reduces your quality of life to some degree. But the Surgeon General, and many have done some research on the effects of loneliness on us even physically, and this is wild to me, but it, it says it, it actually has compare loneliness has comparable levels of risk to health and premature death as things like smoking and obesity, [00:07:00] diabetes.
That this, it has this sort of systemic, physical kind of outcome because of loneliness. You know, and it’s, it’s in some respects sort of like a chronic illness for a lot of people. And it has that type of effect on your body in a way that it’s difficult to flourish, difficult to thrive, difficult to have.
Even step into relationships when you’re, once you’re in a place of loneliness. Even the, the UK now has a minister of loneliness. They appointed an actual governmental position ’cause this was such a pervasive thing. And they, they said that this minister is responsible for overseeing government action to combat social isolation across the country.
And so that really becomes the, sort of, another way to, to approach this is loneliness is stemming from social isolation. And we can get into all the, the reasons for that. Obviously social media, our digital environment environment comes to mind where we’re more digitally connected than we’ve ever been before, but it’s [00:08:00] not fully replacing these physical incarnate relationships.
And so we’ve substituted what we need in terms of community relationships for this. Really poor substitute that makes us think we’re connected and surrounded by people and in healthy, loving relationships. But it’s not actually getting us all the way there. It’s kind of filling us with junk food when we need true nourishment.
And so I wanted to bring this up for just a couple reasons. For one, you know, I’m sure there are people listening to this podcast right now that are in this boat that are feeling isolated, especially as we get into the Christmas season. If you have strained relationships. You’re sensing that in this season when you’re thinking about who are we spending time with for Christmas?
Or who do I call or not call, or should I call because of the relational dynamics across your family. And so if, if you are experiencing that, I just wanted to let people know you’re not alone. That this is not just a a you problem, just a your family problem. [00:09:00] But we have a cultural issue in our society right now where we are struggling.
To have healthy, connected relationships, not only within families, but even kind of outside of our family relationships. And I just wanted to encourage people that there’s, first of all, there’s nothing wrong with you if you’re experiencing that, that this is actually a good portion of our country that’s not only experiencing the, the challenges of family dynamics, but also this feeling of isolation and loneliness that is becoming pervasive in our society.
And that, that sort of sets the stage. I had a, I wanted to just sort of pose this question for y’all and we’ll get to, I wanted to give a couple practical steps here at the end, but I, I wanted just to see if you all either have, are seeing this in your own families or circles is this something even that you all have struggled with?
Personally, this feeling of isolation or distance from close, healthy, deep relationships. When you look at men specifically, not only are those statistics, do they tend to be higher for men in terms of feeling [00:10:00] those feelings of isolation, but men are even more likely to avoid talking about it. And so more isolated and, and less likely to say, Hey, I need help.
And so I’m curious for you all just in, if we were to, you know, just talk vulnerably here on the, on the call, what are y’all seeing here? Have y’all experienced this even personally? Have you sensed this kind of sense of distance and isolation even in your own lives?
Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. Connor, what’s your reaction to all that?
That’s a lot to think about.
Conner Jones: It’s, it’s heavy stuff to be honest, and it’s real. Josh, thank you for presenting all that information. ’cause it is real. And I’m sure there are people listening to this who either are feeling that loneliness today or they have someone very close to them that they know feels lonely.
The one thing I would point out is something I have noticed in my own life and my own personal experiences, Josh, like you’re asking, is even when you’re surrounded by lots of people, you could still feel lonely. Like it. It’s not just a, are you constantly busy? Are you always surrounded by people at work or at church or whatnot?
Like you could still feel like you’re alone in that and that might stem from [00:11:00] needing deeper. Loving relationships. At church. This PA Sunday, I, this kind of ties to the sermon that our preacher talked about and he really presented the idea of what a true friend is, pointing it back to Jesus which is great because John 1513 is a reminder about friends.
And then in verses 15 and 16 of John 15, Jesus tells us. He calls us his friends. We have a friend in Jesus, which is the greatest just source of encouragement when you are feeling lonely. But he pointed out what a true friend is, based off the example of Jesus. And he gave the an acronym literally Friend.
And F was for faithful. R was for real. I was for initiative. E for encouragement in, for near and d for discernment. Those are the qualities of what makes a true friend. Now, that could be a spouse, that can be a family member, it can be a, you know, a, a coworker, but somebody that you can find true joy in hanging out with, in being around someone that you can be vulnerable with.
That you can be [00:12:00] encouraged by and that you offer the same thing. You, they can be vulnerable with you. You can encourage them. You are discerning in choices you make together. You run things by them. Maybe they’re an accountability partner, but somebody that’s real. So when you’re surrounded by lots of people, like I’m saying, it’s just do you have real relationships with those people?
Are they true friends or is it just noise? And if it’s just noise, then find some of the people in that group. Find some of them that you can say, okay, I want to dive deeper into a relationship with you. I think we can relate on a lot of things. I think we have a lot of things similar. We may not even be the same age, but maybe it’s an older person or a younger person that can be a mentor mentee situation.
Somebody that you can be real with and help. Guide through life, and I think that that would really help with the loneliness situation. And as far as holiday season I, I know it’s really hard and there, there’s opportunities out there when you’re with family to try to build those relationships as well.
If you are in a situation where you’re surrounded by lots of family members, and again, it feels like noise. Who can you find in that group setting and say, I would like to [00:13:00] restore a relationship. I’d like to start a relationship, whatever it is. There’s, there’s ways God can open up opportunities, even in spots you don’t expect, whether it’s at the family dinner table or at your church or at your school or workplace.
Allow God to just open that opportunity and help bring a, a friend or a, a companion into your life.
Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. Yeah. Good thoughts? I Joshua, you brought this up. I just. Made me real. Remember when I first became a Christian as a teenager, that our pastor used to preach a, a sermon about holiday loneliness almost every year on the first Sunday of December, just because he knew that those feelings intensified for a bunch of people.
And it may not be as much true now that, you know, suicide rates used to go up in the holiday season. They may still be doing that because of the intense feelings. It also reminds me of just some of my own experience. You know, my wife and I came from big families and we just remember these huge holiday gatherings and those don’t exist anymore [00:14:00] for us.
And so we’ve kind of over the years had to grieve that. And then the other thing we’ve learned is, is that, you know, the holidays can’t fix relationships that have not been growing in healthy ways over the previous year. You can’t just impose a holiday expectation even on family members or on friends.
You just can’t snap your fingers because it’s the holidays and all of a sudden make everything the way you wish it were all through the year. I love what Connor’s saying about starting over making it a season to start over. And so we’ve had to learn to kind of let go of some of our previous expectations.
To try to be more intentional. We’ve also been learning to create new rhythms and new traditions. Our family units are smaller than what we grew up with, but we are trying to learn how to do that in a different kind of way. And just realizing I love, I love that you call [00:15:00] this out. I love that you make a reference to the UK because that just reminds us it’s not.
Just our problem. It’s not just an American problem, it’s not just a part of the world. It’s almost all of us that are caught up in this in some way or another.
Josh Miller: Yeah. Yeah. I’d love to just give people a couple practical things to think about here. ’cause it is a big subject and, and really is not intended to be even depressing for us.
It’s just. To some degree, we need to talk about the reality here. And I think what is more depressing if people don’t feel okay to actually be open and honest about it. Mm. And so one of the, the first kind of encouragement I had, just to wrap up, wrap this up was, man, this does start with vulnerability.
We have to start with honesty about where we, where we stand, how we feel, and be honest with the people who we do know. And, and I know even saying the word. Lonely, or I’m feeling lonely, can feel, you know, sort of weak and extra vulnerable. But man, we can call somebody up and just saying, Hey, I’m feeling a bit isolated right now.
Maybe that feels like a little bit safer word to use [00:16:00] in this context. I’m feeling a little isolated, a little isolated, a little disconnected. Would love to hang out and connect. Just kind of make those intentional efforts to, to talk to those people who you do know who can support you. We all, we all know someone, you know, maybe we do have some relationships that are more disconnected than we would like, but there are, there’s somebody around that we can call and say, Hey, I’m feeling a little isolated.
Can we go grab coffee, go have lunch, go to a movie, do something. And just start with being vulnerable about where, where you are. The other reality here is. You know, try if, if we are talking about sort of repairing relationships or stepping into relationships that may be distant, this may involve a level of humility.
If there’s been a break in that relationship and coming in humble and going, Hey, maybe I’ve made some mistakes. Maybe there’s some things I should have done or said differently, that may be the pathway to. Taking a step towards healing a relationship may involve an apology. It may involve forgiveness for things that were said to you.
And so sometimes we [00:17:00] need to start there and it certainly is gonna involve patience, relationships take patience, and they’re, they’re always. Messy. You know, that’s, that’s the downside we, so I think sometimes we don’t wanna pay the price of relationship, which is, it’s a little bit messy. And so we have to also just recognize that the cost of being in healthy, deep relationship, fulfilling whole relationship with people is that it can be a little messy sometimes.
I love this quote from James Clear who wrote atomic Habits and he said, being annoyed is the price you pay for community. And so it just kind of comes with the territory. You’re gonna get annoyed with people sometimes. The only way to not be annoyed with people is to not be around people. And so to some degree I think we, we.
Prioritize our own comfort to a fault and say, I don’t wanna be annoyed or put out or offended. And so I’m just gonna disconnect. And I think we ultimately pay the price for that. And last thing I’ll say is maybe, maybe this isn’t relevant to you. You feel like you have great [00:18:00] family, great relationships, things are, are healthy in this spot.
I’d just encourage you to look around for those you can serve during the season. Hmm. Maybe it’s a neighbor nearby that you know, is living by themself and they don’t have a place to celebrate or people to celebrate with for Christmas around that season. Maybe there’s somebody at your church.
You know, I’m reminded of the, you know, the story Parable of the Good Samaritan, where there were a lot of people who were too busy to go help. That person in need. And you know, we can get into all the, the factors around that, but to some degree, I think in this season as busy Americans, all the holiday events and parties and church events, it can be really easy to just be too busy to serve those around us.
And so I would just encourage you not only to be vulnerable in your own relationships, but look for those people around you that. Need a place to go. What an opportunity we have during this season to serve those in need, not only from a financial standpoint, but from a relational standpoint. What does it [00:19:00] look like for us to be, to serve one another in terms of relationships and loving one another?
And just, I would just encourage us to be intentional during this season, to take a step towards people we know and also to love those who are really in need during this time.
Dr. Mark Turman: Such a good word. And I think, I think that motto from James Clear may become my new motto is, am am I willing to be annoyed?
Because if once you isolate, then you, you kind of inflicting a certain kind of pain on yourself that way too. You kind of have to make a decision in the crossroads. And serving others is a great way to address your own loneliness. You’ll feel better about trying to help somebody else get through their season and through their situation.
And it’ll kind of pull you out of your own if you’re having a struggle. But I remember a, a Christmas not so long ago when my wife and I decided to give our daughter a dog for Christmas. And we’ve had a number of dogs over the time that we’ve been married. That dog turned out to be the worst dog that we ever [00:20:00] had of the six or seven dogs we’ve ever had.
And I don’t know if it was because it was a Christmas dog or not, but it was the worst dog. So I don’t know if that’s on your Christmas list either to give someone or hoping somebody gives you a dog. But Connor, you had a unique story about a dog you wanted to talk about.
Conner Jones: Yeah, I did. Yeah, mark, you reminded me of all the Christmas commercials where you see them open the box and a puppy pops out, and the little kids are so excited.
That’s exactly what that sounds like. Except when they grow up, maybe they’re not quite that cute, adorable puppy anymore. No, you, you bring up a good transition here because. I was just, my eye caught a headline recently. I’m sure many people saw this about a cloned dog, specifically Tom Brady’s cloned dog.
And while that does not specifically touch on Christmas, I think this leads us into a broader conversation about genetics and cloning and stuff that I really think will take precedent in 2026 as a major topic because the science is headed that direction. And so as we go into our new year, I think this is something to keep your eye [00:21:00] out eye out on.
And keep tabs on because this is gonna, this is gonna be something we’re gonna have to talk about going down the road with both biblical morality, ethical lines, and just science. And where is science headed? Anyways, Tom Brady, he had his essentially dead dog cloned right before it died, and he said that he had its DNA drawn from its blood right before it passed away.
And in just a few short months after that, this company called Colossal Bio Colossal Biosciences was able to then clone his previously owned dog and give him an exact clone of his beloved dog. Which is interesting and definitely something, I mean, so do you know, mark, maybe you don’t wanna clone that dog that you gave your daughter back in the day, but Yeah,
Dr. Mark Turman: we’re not, we’re not cloning the dog that we had a few years ago.
Not
Conner Jones: doing that. No, but you know what? I know a lot of people have their dogs or their cats or whatever their pet is that they just love and they never want them to die. And so this would be maybe a sort of option to be like, okay, [00:22:00] you get to pass away, but where I’m gonna just re. Clone you basically make an exact replica copy of your favorite pet.
There’s a lot of ethical things here. So to kind of give some context, Tom Brady, he is an investor in Colossal Biosciences. This is the same group that brought back the dire wolves, which were an extinct wolf breed for 10,000 years. They brought them back in 2024. You know, some critics would say that they’re not actually dire wolves, but they’re really more so just designer gray wolves.
Also a Gallup poll found that 59% of people say cloning animals is morally wrong. 34% say it’s acceptable. There’s a lot of gray area here. I just would love to hear y’all’s initial thoughts on just animal cloning before I dive into a bigger issue with all of this.
Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. I just, I, I don’t even know where to start with this.
The, the whole, the whole concept of cloning, be it. Animal or human just blows my mind. And, and I just, [00:23:00] something inside of me just wants to throw up a big stop sign and say, this is a, a road we should not go down. I mean, if it’s something like flowers or grain, maybe we have a conversation, but something just immediately sends an alarm bell off for me when we start this conversation.
Josh Miller: Yeah, I tend to agree. I mean, I, I, I would say I have sympathy for those pet owners, not empathy. I can’t imagine personally actually wanting to, to do this. But I can understand, I, you know, I’ve, I have a lot of dog lovers around me. You know, my, my wife is a big you know, loves animals. And I, I could see why people would want to do this from a kind of a logical standpoint, but I.
I honestly, my, my mind goes more immediately to, is this a step towards something else? You know, is, are we practicing for what this could look like even from a, a human standpoint? So that’s, I think my greater concern is I do think I. [00:24:00] I would question sort of the, the morality of doing this. I think there’s some ethical concerns here, even with pets.
And it just, frankly, it just feels weird. I don’t know how to describe it other than it feels weird. Yeah. But I do, I have a significant ethical concerns if it were to come to human beings. And that just seems the logical next step of this process of, you know, practicing. It’s sort of like animal testing, how you would test a product on an animal before you would go and, and test it on a human.
And so that’s where my concern would lie. I always get a little concern when we start. Playing in the category, we get into this category of sort of playing God a little bit. And there’s a lot of things that kind of fit into that category from in sort of a gray area. I would think this already is getting into that space where we’re using technology and medicine and science, not just to sort of improve the life of, you know, creatures or animals in this case, but actually to sort of generate life in a way [00:25:00] that we control. And I think that’s just one of those things that as, as humans, it’s a. This, this plays out in so many different ways, but we want control. We want to not have to sort of play by the rules of life and the things that get outside of our control.
We don’t wanna have to face the reality that there is life and death and have to grieve. And so we look for alternatives to sort of take control of the situation and to make things easier on ourselves to not have to sort of suffer. In a way that is just a natural part of life, that’s a really difficult part of life.
And so it, yeah, so this is a co complex one for me. I, I think the, on one hand, the heart behind it is good in terms of the true loss of losing someone or something you love. I understand the, the desire to try and prevent. Or to try and recreate what you lost, but I think it, we start playing a dangerous game when we’re hanging out in this space.
Conner Jones: Yeah. Everything you said, I, I’m glad you kind of teed it up, Josh, because [00:26:00] your concerns about where this is headed is actually where I’m taking this now, because Yeah. Tom Brady can clone his dog and say it gives his family a second chance with their beloved dog. That’s already kind of gray, but you know, it, it’s, I don’t think it’s something that everybody’s oh, we should really not do this.
It does cost $50,000. By the way, if this is a Christmas gift you want to give of a cloned animal it’s not cheap. No, a, a bigger headline caught my eye this week, and that was from the Wall Street Journal, and it was titled Genetically Engineered Babies are Banned, but Tech Titans are trying to make one anyway.
And that immediately sent off all the flares, all the red lights, the sirens in my mind and in my heart. I was like, uhoh. So I read this whole thing and man, it, it’s actually kind of frightening where we’re headed. And this is basically, they’re. Reporting on this company called Preventative, which is a new startup in Silicon Valley, and it’s backed by Sam Altman.
You might know that name. That is the CEO in the face of open ai, AKA chat, [00:27:00] GPT, billionaire in his own right. And then Brian Armstrong, the co-founder and CEO of Coinbase. He’s also a billionaire, so they are backing this company. That is seeking to genetically change embryos. They’re trying to do gene editing within embryos, preborn babies, and their idea is to prevent hereditary disease.
But in a, in a part of that, they’re also saying, you know, we wanna prevent hereditary disease, but we could also give you the chance to choose different traits on your child ahead of time, like before fertilization. So there’s a lot there. There’s a lot to take in. And it’s kind of frightening.
They’re saying you can choose your hair color, you can choose the eye color, you can choose iq. Now, that is one aspect of where this is headed. Currently, we’re already almost there. There are currently companies that are testing embryos and they’re allowing parents to choose which of the embryos they wanna chew or that essentially one of.
Give birth to, you know, they, they take a group of embryos from a couple and there’s 10, [00:28:00] and they can test them. It’s thousands and thousands of dollars to do this testing, but they’re able to see which embryos have, which traits, which ones might have a higher risk at diseases, which ones might have a higher IQ possibility, and give them a, basically a report where they get to read the stats, telling them their risk scores, their probabilities of different opportunities in life.
Their probabilities of different diseases and they’re giving these couples the opportunity to look at that and then choose which embryo they want based off of the qualities that they think is best. Essentially they’re doing they’re choosing gene genetic superiority within their own embryos, which I think is already a very, very, weird and dicey situation, and there’s a lot of ethical questions there. I know Dr. Jim Denison has talked about this before with embryo, you know, choosing based off of traits and all of that. And essentially, like you kind of said Josh almost playing God in this situation. Like you’re, you’re bringing humanity into now the idea of creation which I think is.
God’s [00:29:00] territory. I think that is what God does. He creates, he makes humans. He’s made us each individually with our traits, our qualities, in the way that we are supposed to be made in his image. We’re all made in this image, and each of those embryos has its own value. It’s got its own life. And so when you’re choosing which one you want out of a group because you think that’s gonna be the best option for worldly success or worldly desires.
I think we’re entering very dangerous territory. And just to be clear, there’s quite a few people that have done this, including some billionaires. Elon Musk has done this. Sam Altman himself has done this. And it’s, it’s just a weird thing. I mean, what do you guys think about this? Is there a biblical direction we should take this in?
Is there a ethical, moral dilemma that we need to address here? And just to be clear. They are talking about doing gene editing. They cannot do it in the United States. It’s banned, but they’re talking about doing it in a secret location somewhere in the world. And then basically to the objection of a many, many scientists who are [00:30:00] flagging the ethical dilemmas here, they’re thinking about potentially just doing this presenting a genetically engine, not engineered, but genetically altered embryo and baby, and just saying, Hey, this baby was born to be resistant to a certain disease.
And they’re gonna potentially just shock the world because they know that everyone would object to them doing this upfront, and they’re gonna have to do it in a country that allows it, it’s not allowed in most western nations. So what are y’all’s thoughts?
Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, it’s just, it’s really wild and it’s you know, it hearkens back to things that we learned about, heard about back in the Nazi era with eugenics and that type of thing.
People have always probably from the Garden of Eden forward. Trying to figure out how to become immortal. I think it’s that pursuit of trying to rival God and trying to have, as Josh said a minute ago, that level of control. And it’s always the case, seemingly, that our science advances faster than [00:31:00] our ethics do.
And so there’s always this catch up game that’s going on. And that certainly seems to be the case here. And we know that, you know, certainly the people that you’ve called out, like Elon Musk and Sam Altman, the, the Uber rich have capacity to do things that couldn’t happen in other context, obviously.
And so I think it’s something that we have to think deeply about. I think we have to be you know. We, we obviously would, would welcome some of the advances in genetic medicine as it relates to combating disease. Yeah. You know, I’ve had I’ve had close friends that have died of a LS I’ve had close friends that have died of cancer.
And if there were treatments that genetic medicine could help either to stop or to prevent those diseases, of course we would want to go down those roads at least. To some degree. But we’re gonna have to have some real conversations about the, as you pointed out, Connor, the sanctity of [00:32:00] every life.
From the moment of conception. You know, that’s usually a conversation we have around abortion. And it certainly applies there, but it also applies here this big conversation about when, as a human being, a human being. And what we have typically said, traditionally said here at Denison Forum is that life begins at the moment of conception.
And that, that life is sacred and something that should be protected from that moment forward. And that we need to think that way about all of these issues as well. And, when you were talking about Tom Brady’s dog, I thought to myself you know, he didn’t do this for the dog’s sake. He did this for his sake.
Yeah. And the same thing kind of applies when you start talking about genetically engineered babies based on IQ or particular appearance qualities. You’re at least at that point, you’re doing that for what you prefer, not necessarily what God would [00:33:00] prefer or what. You know, the processes that God has set in place would create in terms of that unique individual.
It just seems an in an intrusion into an area that should be left in the hands of God to me.
Josh Miller: Yeah. When you think about how God creates us now and he makes all of us different with unique. Gifts and abilities and callings. Things that we’re great at, things that we’re not great at each one of us has our strengths and our weaknesses, and God weaves that together into this beautiful tapestry that we could never have created ourselves. And he, that’s how we all come together using all of these different gifts to come together as the church to accomplish the, the, you know, the work of the kingdom.
And so I, I, I feel like from just a really high level, if we begin to disrupt that process and to say no. God, I know you may have wanted to create this person with their own gifts and maybe their own [00:34:00] weaknesses. And we’re gonna disrupt that process to say, no, they need to be made like this. We’re, we’re essentially saying we know better.
We know better than than God in that process. And again, that just, that puts us in a, a category that makes me nervous. And, you know, there’s a lot of, you could take this into all sorts of spaces and so I don’t want to. Over sort of moralize that, ’cause I think we do this in a lot of different ways where we try to compensate for God’s plan and and rather than just being faithful with what he’s given us, we try to try to muscle kind of our own path forward.
And I don’t want to say this is the only spot that this happens, but it’s a pretty blatant attempt to do that, to say that right from the FF. Foundation of someone’s life, we’re going to again, take control. We are gonna create our own plan. And I, and I worry what that does for the church and for humanity.
And what type, what do we lose when we say we want it this way. You know, you can think throughout history of all these people that overcame incredible obstacles and God used their weakness for his [00:35:00] glory. Use those things that they ever, and even even struggle, some of the struggle we all walk through.
How God redeems that for his purposes. And so anytime we sort of attempt to manipulate that, I think we get into dangerous territory. But again, mark, I think to your point. This is a mixed bag, even as I’m saying this, because there are, how do you then deal with things like the advancements of medicine?
I’m not saying everything we struggle through, we shouldn’t attempt to to fix. And I think there are incredible potential benefits to genomic research in a way that can prevent things like cancer. And I’m all for that. And I’m certainly not saying that, you know. God desires for that, to, that to, for cancer to happen or things like that.
And if anything in situations like this, we just need to walk very humbly. And recognize we do live in a broken world and there are some things that we can do that, that is as a faithful follower of Jesus to redeem the world for his glory. But what I don’t wanna do is to get in front of God and, [00:36:00] and, and in a way that just says.
I know better. And so that’s, that’s ultimately where I get concerned in this space is you don’t even get the opportunity to see what God may be doing in this situation. Or even these strengths and weaknesses, we don’t understand. We’re not even given the opportunity for that to play out. We’re trying to sort of cut to the front of the line here and go, no, this is how it will be.
And that’s where I, I get concerned.
Conner Jones: Yeah, I, I will say this, the, this company preventative and several of these other startups that are kind of aiming for gene editing, they would say that their whole purpose is to try to prevent diseases essentially before they can even come about. They’re trying to edit these Yeah.
Embryos to pull away any possibility of certain diseases. And that that embryo. Would now offer the opportunity for couples who both carry hereditary diseases to have a healthy baby. You know, that’s, that’s their position. So I think you guys are bringing up a good point, like where do we find the line between gene editing that can help prevent disease?
And maybe it’s the line is. Post birth and then do [00:37:00] we just not mess with embryos? I, I don’t know. In science, you know, they, they’re gonna have to really address this and I hope that there are you know, Christian ethicists in the room who are helping them discern what is the best way forward here.
There, there’s a lot here, but that’s why I’m bringing it up now because I think this is something to think about. I think this is going to happen within the next year or so. We’re gonna start seeing more and more of this, and we’re gonna see bigger headlines and potentially we’re gonna see. A genetically altered baby be born.
It has technically already happened in China in 2018. A doctor in secrecy. Edited the embryos of three children to prevent them from being able to get HIV in their lifetime. We’ll see if that’s actually true. Those children are apparently healthy. The doctor went to prison, China imprisoned him because that was completely illegal to be doing.
But that was just to prevent one disease. They’re talking about doing even more within the embryos. So there’s a lot of questions here. I would like to end and kind of leave everybody off with this, which is a verse many of us know, and that’s just Psalm 1 39, 13, and 14. You formed my n word parts.
You [00:38:00] knit me together in my mother’s womb. I am fearfully and wonderfully made. So everything you’re saying, Josh, about, you know, e even if we have weaknesses or we do have some sort of disease or disability or whatnot. God’s got ways of redeeming all of that. And even if scientists truly believe they can gene edit everything to make perfect embryos in the world’s eyes, we are a fallen race.
And you cannot tell me that there’s no chance of disease still making its way into an edited embryo or choosing an embryo as a quote unquote designer maybe as they were talking about in this article for hair color, eye color, and all that. God’s got his way of making things the way he wants it to be.
Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, yeah, that’s a good word, Connor. I don’t think anybody’s gonna be able to edit out our sinful nature, and I don’t think they’re gonna be able to edit out the aging process. I think both of those are gonna stay with us. And one of the things that we may remember a lot about 2025 are some of the shifts that are going on in faith, and particularly faith [00:39:00] among younger generations, millennials, gen Z, and what.
May end up being termed Gen Alpha and even what some are calling gen beta. Gen beta would be those youngest among us preschoolers through about age eight or nine right now. But guys, I wanted to bring up a couple of things, but before I do, my, my first initial topic that I wanted to talk about was, are all the spiritual holidays getting bigger?
Because here’s the anecdotal evidence from my neighborhood. All of the Halloween decorations from a month or so ago were a lot bigger. Like to the tune of 10 feet tall skeletons and witches on brooms that were 10 or 12 feet tall. Now having walked up and down the streets for the last few weeks in my neighborhood, the number of Thanksgiving Turkey inflatables, and the size of the Thanksgiving turkeys are much bigger and much more plentiful.
Josh to what you said a moment ago. As [00:40:00] soon as we got through with Halloween, Christmas lights started going up faster and bigger than I have ever seen them. My Christmas lights are not up yet, but they will be in a few days. Is that, is that just unique to my neighborhood or does it feel like the holidays, at least the spiritual holidays are getting bigger in people’s minds?
What does it look like in your neighborhood?
Josh Miller: The inflatables are certainly a thing. And I’m not particularly a fan of the inflatables personally, no judgment on anyone. But you know, I, I don’t know how to answer this question, mark. I don’t know whether this is fandom over holidays or passion for ’em, or if it’s just consumerism and bigger, bigger, bigger, better America.
Let’s see how, you know. My neighbor gets a large inflatable, I’m gonna get a larger inflatable, and we just kind of, you know, go to town there. So I, you know, I’m not sure I, I do enjoy, there. I think there’s some, some good things here. I think it’s great that [00:41:00] we celebrate things together. There’s a lot of things we fight over, a lot of things that separate us.
And so if that’s the way we wanna bond as a nation and set up inflatables in our yard and we just kind of celebrate together and find some common ground, I’m all for it. The less tacky the better in my opinion. You know, let’s, let’s watch which inflatables we put in our yards and make sure to tie them down with stakes so when it gets windy, it doesn’t end up in the next neighbor’s yard.
Yeah. But, but I don’t know. I think it’s, I, you know, it’s harmless fun. I think for the most part. I, I like seeing people get excited about something, but I, I’m not sure what’s kind of driving that.
Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. I’m, I’m at least excited that there are more people recognizing Thanksgiving because I feel like it’s been the forgotten holiday for a long time.
That we need to Amen. Reclaim. Connor, what does it look like in your neighborhood?
Conner Jones: You know, Halloween was big here and that’s, you know, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I, I have always found certain decorations to be not great. Maybe a little sinister and [00:42:00] definitely not holy in that sense. But you know, there’s always the innocent decorations too.
And now I started to see all the Christmas stuff, you know, just really pop up and it, it is a big deal. There’s a lot of inflatables. I think it’s interesting what you bring up, Josh, like if this is how America bonds. I think one thing about holidays is, in a way, it is a bonding experience for all of America.
We all stop on Thanksgiving day, and everybody typically has a very similar tradition. We’re all gonna have a meal with our family together. We’re all gonna sit around and watch football all day. In a way it’s a, it’s America bonding. And then Christmas, same thing. Christmas, maybe it’s Christmas Eve, you’re at Christmas Eve.
Services at church, Christmas Day. The world stops and it’s kind of unique. I think it’s a great time to find spiritual rest, to find ways of being together with your family and with friends and being married, whatever that looks like for you. Taking Advent seriously and really connecting with the Lord.
I think it’s a great, you know, exercise of bonding and I think. Decorations allow people to really kind of show that and maybe show the way that they go about that [00:43:00] experience. And you’ll see that in front yards. Is it a nativity scene or is it Santa Claus? Maybe it’s both. I don’t know. You know, it kind of depends on how you approach Christmas, but I think there’s a lot there.
And I think you can kind of learn more about your neighbors through decorations. So maybe that’s a great way to be a conversation starter is, Hey man, I really like your, whatever it is. You know, your lights, your, yeah. Your deer, your reindeer in the front yard, you’re Santa Inflatable, or maybe Josh, you don’t like the Santa Inflatable.
I don’t know. But I, I think you can start conversations with it.
Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. And I, you know, I have a neighbor behind my house. I gotta tell you, I snickered a little bit because his, his 10 or 12 foot witch on a broom only lasted about eight days before it snapped. And I saw it. Yep. Parked over by the trash can.
Yep. That kind of made me laugh a little bit, but maybe, maybe all of this is connected to something we need to think about and continue to pray for because I’ve been doing some reading along, you know, maybe. More and larger decorations that kind of point to different things spiritually, be it Halloween, Thanksgiving, [00:44:00] Christmas maybe they indicate something else.
So we’ve been tracking stories like this for at least a year or more here at Denison Forum and other places articles even recently about church attendance that is increasing, particularly among young people. Gen Z, which are basically, people tend to. Or 15 to 30 years old or roughly right now.
And millennials who are a little bit older than that by 10 or 15 years, both those groups under the age of 40, down to around the age of 15, 18, they are now the most predominant group to attend worship services on a regular basis. People that are basically 20 to 40, 45 are showing up at church about two times per month on average.
Whereas people who are older, baby boomer boomers and those who are in the oldest cohorts are showing up about half a Sunday, less statistically. And that’s a big deal because it has never been that way [00:45:00] in at least the last a hundred years. So just in the last five years since the close of the COVID era.
And then the last five years, more and more of these young people are finding their way on a regular basis into regular attendance in faith communities. One of those that’s been tracking this is a guy named David Kinnaman. He’s the CEO of Barna, which is a religious research organization. He wrote recently, young people today are showing up in a renew with a renewed openness to faith, and many are finding their way back into church communities.
So those are some statistic statistics that we’re starting to follow. It’s not a clear picture yet. One of the other faith researchers is a guy named Ryan Burge who writes on things like the nuns, those who have no faith, and those, the, what he called the de Churching of America. He says, you know, you can find some studies also from Pew and from others that indicate that the picture is not clear.
But then there’s another story [00:46:00] several articles about how young adults, this same group we were talking about, about church attendance, are actually reading their Bible and reading it pretty consistently to kind of set the stage for this Bible reading in the United States among US adults in 2025 is at its highest level in 15 years.
Now as a former pastor, that really just speaks to me because my pastor friends would always say, you know, if we could get our people to do one thing, it would be we would want them to read their Bible and to read it consistently. Today, 50% of self-identified Christians say that they read their Bible at least once a week, which doesn’t sound a lot like a lot, but that is the highest level.
That we’ve ever been able to record in a decade or more. When you look at it in younger generations, 50% of millennials and about the same number of Gen Z their numbers have gone up really exponentially by 16, [00:47:00] 19% among the younger groups over the last five years. And that compares with boomers, people who are my age.
That read their Bible by their description, only about one, about 30% read it weekly. So it’s just amazing to see this interest in the Bible. Now, here’s one caveat that research has revealed Barna and others that even though people are reading the Bible more often, including younger people.
Only 44% strongly believe that the Bible is accurate in all that it says and all that it reveals. Now that, that’s kind of an interesting pause. And then one last thing I’ll say here is we’ve been tracking and talking about evidences of spiritual awakening. Read an article this week by a pastor in Ohio, Dale Sutherland, who.
Was at one time a, an undercover police officer for 30 years and then became a minister. He did a great article talking about what [00:48:00] revival among Christians really looks like. Very provocative article in the New York Times, written by David French about the difference between revival and revolution.
And French points out that, you know, if it’s a revival, then it’s about you dealing with your sin. If it’s something else, it’s about you pointing out the sin of other people. I thought that was a really great insight. He said this at the end of his article. We will know when revival comes because we will see believers humble themselves, repent of their sins, and then rise up full of genuine virtue to love their neighbors, to help them and not hurt them, and in doing so to heal our nation.
I thought that was a really great insight. So I just wanted to kind of get you guys here at the end of this podcast to give us a few thoughts. Have you been seeing some of the evidences of renewal or revival in your churches, in your communities? Is that something that you have anecdotal evidence that kind of supports some of this research?
Conner Jones: [00:49:00] Absolutely. Yeah. This is something we talk about on culture brief quite a bit actually. Micah, my co-host and I, we’ve di we’ve dived into this several times just ’cause this is our generation and so we are very interested in seeing how our generation is really grabbing onto the gospel and onto scripture and recognizing there is so much more to this than a lot of people have ever realized.
I think that some of this comes out of what we talked about in the first segment of this, Josh, was loneliness. The, the epidemic of loneliness was at its highest, it felt like during COVID and with a younger generation that was all of a sudden sent home from school, sent home from college, working.
Now digitally, there was a loneliness aspect to it, and I think a lot of them were like, where do I find community? Where do I find hope and peace? And they’ve realized probably through Christians in their lives and online, Hey, I, there’s something about those people. They have a joy, even when it seems like everything else is going wrong in the world right now.
There’s a joy that the Christians have and I, I think there’s been a witness to younger gener [00:50:00] generations either through older generations or people within our own peer groups that, you know, we’re seeing a difference in them. And, and so they were able to say, I wanna be like that. I wanna see what that’s about.
Stepping into a church, stepping into scripture. I think digital means have made scripture more available than ever. You version the Bible app specifically. And that’s a group we work with here at Dentist and Forum and our other brands to try to get Bible plans out to people. You know, you can find a Bible plan on pretty much any topic now on that app alone, let alone all the other online resources.
And there’s a digital movement on TikTok and Instagram and other social media spots where young people are, are recognizing, Hey, this is real. This is not something that you just do for fun. There is a real relationship you can have with our God. There’s a lot of people talking about it.
There’s way more podcasts than there were four or five years ago, talking about that from younger people. And it’s really cool. And my church alone, yeah, anecdotally I’ve seen it. Our church is filled with young people and I, I went to this church when I was in high school too. Back [00:51:00] then, it was not filled with young people.
So it’s really cool to see so many younger families, so many college age students, so many high school students really just. Taking interest in Christianity, but really more so not just Christianity, take an interest in Jesus and the gospel. That’s what they’re really coming for. ’cause there is so much truth and hope and joy and peace in that.
Josh Miller: Yeah. Yeah. And I think you see the, you see the sort of every generation sort of pivots away from what the previous one did. They learn from their parents’ mistakes to some degree. And I think we have seen previous generations who really. Went hard into secularism and said, I’m gonna find my meaning and worth in my career and my wealth in my political identity, whatever it may be.
And, but certainly not in Christ to some degree. And so I think you’re seeing kids grow up and go, that didn’t seem all that great. I’m not seeing the fruit of that. And so I think there’s a, a, a sort of a, a search again, for, for meaning and purpose and going maybe. There is something here that my parents am [00:52:00] missed.
They don’t seem all that happy. They, they don’t seem all that fulfilled you know, getting the, the larger paycheck and the successful career didn’t seem to fulfill them. And so I’m gonna look for, for something deeper here. You’re also seeing, I think people disenfranchised. With politics and all of the, the promises that didn’t come true there and continues to be a mess.
And you’re seeing people having lived through this social media generation and people are well aware much earlier of just how detrimental. Living on social media can be, and so they’re looking for in-person relationship, connection to your point, Connor. And so all of this, I think just really sets the stage for an incredible opportunity for the gospel to, to reach more people.
Yeah, because, and so I, go ahead. Yeah.
Conner Jones: I was gonna say, because every, it is a great opportunity ’cause these percentages are awesome, but it is not at a hundred percent right now. How do we get to a hundred percent? I’m actually really encouraged, ’cause two years ago I wrote an article about Gen Z was not [00:53:00] going to church.
And so there’s been this just big cultural movement, which is awesome. And it’s, it’s a huge praise to the Lord and I think it’s because. Everything you’re saying, Josh, about social media and careerism and everything that the world tells us will, you know, make us happy has failed. Everything that a lot of Gen Z people have gone towards is new age mysticism, new age you know, astrology, things like that, that never succeeds.
That’s always gonna fail you. But the one thing that never fails you. The Lord. He just doesn’t. And when people show up to church or open up the Bible for the first time, they’re like this is different. There’s, there’s more substance to it. There’s it’s kinda like you’re saying there’s like satisfaction and joy in it.
Satisfaction you will not find in money. Or success career-wise, or in things that the world says will make you happy, it just doesn’t make you happy. I think you’re right, Josh, you’re right on the point. Like a generation watched their parents and grandparents maybe not recognize that and yeah. They’re recognizing it now and there’s about to be a massive conference at the beginning of this new year in January called Passion Conference Happens every year, [00:54:00] and there’s gonna be a stadium filled with 70 to 80,000 young.
Christians, it’s awesome. And that’s just a small segment and that’s gonna blow up and turn into a big social media thing as well. It’s, it’s very promising. I’m so excited for what the opportunities are. Like you’re laying out, Josh, there’s so much opportunity.
Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. Yeah. And it, it’s something we need to keep praying for and kind of tie all of these conversations together a little bit, maybe is, you know, if.
If you’re going into this Christmas season, you really feel excited and encouraged, especially in your faith. Then look away, look around and see if you can find some other people that need to be encouraged. How can you come along and let your joy overflow onto them and invite them into some of your gatherings and invite them into worship experiences at your church into your small group.
If you’re one of those people who feels like their faith has kind of gone flat. Or stale. What could you do coming off of this conversation? To begin a new engagement with scripture, go to you [00:55:00] version, find a Bible reading plan, something maybe that is oriented around Christmas that would take you through Advent.
At at Denison forum, we have an advent book that you can grab and catch up with us here in the first few days of Advent going into Christmas. Can you start a new Bible reading plan to intentionally get scripture into your life during this season? Can you renew your commitment to your church family and if necessary, go find a new one If you don’t have one can you jump into a life group with other believers and find out that you’re not living your life alone, that you’re a part of a larger family that God is building for eternity?
Those are all ways that we would help, that we would hope would encourage you and kind of renew. Your faith as we come to celebrate Jesus’ birth and as we get ready to start a brand new year. Guys, we’ve talked it out pretty well today, so we’re gonna wrap up and just remind everybody that you can find more [email protected].
That includes the daily article culture [00:56:00] brief, as well as additional articles. And we want to thank you for tuning in. For this conversation and please rate and review us on your platform and we’ll see you next time on the On the Faith and Clarity Podcast. Have a great day.
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