How can Christians respond to persecution and defend religious freedom?

In this episode of Faith & Clarity, host Mark Turman welcomes Wissam al-Saliby, president of 21Wilberforce, for a rich conversation about God’s heart for religious freedom and the hope that drives advocacy around the world.

Wissam shares his story of faith and calling, shaped by his years in Lebanon and his work at the United Nations in Geneva with the World Evangelical Alliance, where he championed the cause of 600 million evangelical Christians. From training national alliances in religious freedom to equipping leaders across the Middle East in human rights and humanitarian law, Wissam has seen firsthand both the suffering and the steadfast courage of those who follow Christ under pressure.

Together, Mark and Wissam explore how defending freedom of belief is part of God’s greater mission in the world, the biblical vision that grounds that work, and the practical ways churches and individuals can respond. It’s a conversation that invites us to see advocacy not as politics, but as a reflection of God’s love for every person made in his image.

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Topics

• (00:00): Introduction
• (00:37): Reflecting on American history and religious freedom
• (02:40): Introducing Wissam al-Saliby 
• (04:50): Wissam’s faith journey and career path
• (09:52): The mission of 21Wilberforce
• (13:27): Biblical inspiration and real-world challenges
• (21:12): Stories of persecution and advocacy
• (27:19): Theological foundations of religious freedom
• (28:30): Challenges and complexities in religious persecution
• (32:54): Global advocacy and local empowerment
• (38:19): Hotspots and lesser-known areas of persecution
• (44:58): Call to action for churches and believers
• (47:52): Conclusion and ways to get involved

Resources

• Ask Us Anything: [email protected]
• How has Denison Forum impacted your faith?
• 21Wilberforce
• Why Supporting Religious Freedom is Part of God’s Global Mission – 21Wilberforce
• World Evangelical Alliance
• The Voice of the Martyrs
• Open Doors
• First Liberty Institute
• Why is religious freedom necessary? “Liberty for All” offers answers – Denison Forum
• What does the Bible say about religious liberty? – Denison Forum
• Ken Starr’s “Religious Liberty in Crisis” is an indispensable guide to defending religious freedom – Denison Forum
• Global persecution of Christians continues to rise – Denison Forum
• When I’m attacked for being a Christian, how should I respond? – Denison Forum
• Are Christians the most persecuted faith on earth? – Denison Forum
• “Free to believe” is for everyone: A conversation with Randel Everett of the 21st Century Wilberforce Initiative – Denison Forum

About Wissam al-Saliby

Prior to his appointment as President of 21Wilberforce, Wissam al-Saliby was the Advocacy Officer and then the Director of the United Nations Office in Geneva, Switzerland for the World Evangelical Alliance, a network of 140 national alliances representing 600 million evangelical Christians. Under his leadership, the Geneva Office has engaged the United Nations in direct advocacy in approximately 20 country situations each year. Al-Saliby has also pioneered new efforts to help national alliances strengthen their religious freedom training and empower them as religious freedom leaders.

Before his work engaging with the United Nations, al-Saliby served as the Development and Partner Relations Manager at the Arab Baptist Theological Seminary (ABTS). In his role as Manager of Development and Partnership Relations at ABTS, al-Saliby was a member of the leadership team that set the vision of the seminary and helped shape its ministry. In addition to nurturing and cultivating existing relationships, he identified and built new relationships with churches, foundations, and individuals in the United States, Europe, and the Arab World.

Al-Saliby previously co-founded and managed the Summer School on Law and Armed Conflict in Lebanon. He has also served as the National Coordinator and Lead Trainer for Geneva Call in Humanitarian Law and Human Rights and traveled across the Middle East region for seven years training numerous multi-faith religious leaders, civil society groups, armed groups, and political parties in strengthening human rights and the protection of civilians in armed conflict.

Al-Saliby graduated from Lebanese University with a bachelor’s degree in law and then earned from the Université Paul Cézanne, France a master’s degree in international law with a specialization in Protection and Human Security.

About Dr. Mark Turman

Mark Turman, DMin, serves as the Executive Director of Denison Forum, where he leads with a passion for equipping believers to navigate today’s complex culture with biblical truth. He is best known as the host of The Denison Forum Podcast and the lead pastor of the Possum Kingdom Chapel, the in-person congregation of Denison Ministries.

Dr. Turman is the coauthor of Sacred Sexuality: Reclaiming God’s Design and Who Am I? What the Bible Says About Identity and Why it Matters. He earned his undergraduate degree from Howard Payne University in Brownwood, Texas, and received his Master of Divinity from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. He later completed his Doctor of Ministry at George W. Truett Theological Seminary at Baylor University in Waco.

Before joining Denison Forum, Mark served as a pastor for 35 years, including 25 years as the founding pastor of Crosspoint Church in McKinney, Texas.

Mark and his high school sweetheart, Judi, married in 1986. They are proud parents of two adult children and grandparents to three grandchildren.

About Denison Forum

Denison Forum exists to thoughtfully engage the issues of the day from a biblical perspective through The Daily Article email newsletter and podcast, the Faith & Clarity podcast, as well as many books and additional resources.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

NOTE: This transcript was AI-generated and has not been fully edited. 

Dr. Mark Turman: [00:00:00] Welcome to Faith and Clarity at Denison Forum Podcast. I’m Mark Turman, your host for today’s conversation. And as always, we like through faith and clarity to help you find hope beyond the headlines, so that you can live by faith and not by fear. And we do that by having conversations like we’re gonna have today that help you to think biblically.

Help you to live faithfully and obediently to Christ and to serve intentionally so that our lives might cultivate flourishing for everyone in the greatest and deepest ways possible until Jesus comes again. You know, as we got ready for this conversation today, it just struck me that there are things that you and I as Americans take for granted.

Other people in the world are desperately seeking. After in the spring and summer of 1976, I was 13 years old and our country was very focused on a unique birthday. [00:01:00] It was what we called the bicentennial celebration of the founding of our country. It was 200 years old. I remember my aunt being on committees.

She brought me a flag that celebrated that. And now in just a few months, in 2026, we’re gonna be celebrating the 250th anniversary of the founding of our country. I’ve been reading some about that. Just finished a great book by historian. The book is called The Cause, named after the way. They referred to their effort to pursue independence from Great Britain 250 years ago.

One of the stories that you can learn in this period of time is the story of a Baptist pastor named John Leland back in the revolutionary era. Leland led the way for certain human rights and for religious freedom to be guaranteed in our constitution in the very first amendment of what we call [00:02:00] the Bill of Rights.

It’s a wonderful story of how a person of faith and how people of faith. Understood the importance of having religious freedom and that the government and no other authority would tell a person how to believe, what to believe or how to seek after God. That’s the topic that we want to talk about today with our guest.

How is it that religious freedom and supporting and encouraging and advocating for religious people, for religious freedom, for people all around the world? How is that a part of the mission of God that we can join into today? Today I’m joined by the new president. 21 Wilberforce, and we’ll explain to you in a minute what 21 Wilberforce is, but I’m joined today by its new President Wissam al-Saliby.

And if that doesn’t sound Texan to you or something from another part of the United States, you’d be correct because [00:03:00] Wissam is originally from Lebanon, but he is leading a ministry. That is worldwide in its focus. Previous to being in this position, however, he was the advocacy officer, and then later the director of the United Nations office in Geneva, Switzerland for the World Evangelical Alliance, which if you’re not familiar, is a network of 140 national alliances that actually represent 600 million evangelical Christians around the world.

Before working with the United Nations, he served in the role in the role of development and partner relations manager for the Arab Baptist Theological Seminary. And even previous to that, he developed and co-founded the summer School on Law and Armed Conflict, which led him to travel extensively throughout the Middle East, helping religious leaders and civil groups, armed groups, even political parties.

With understanding and strengthening the work of human rights and the [00:04:00] protection of civilians in the midst of armed con conflict. He’s a graduate of Lebanese University as well as achieving a master’s degree in law from a university in France. And I would say it for you, but I think I would massacre the name.

I think it is the University of Université Paul Cézanne. Did I get it right? 

Wissam al-Saliby: You got it right, Université Paul Cézanne. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Okay I’ve already apologized to Wissam if I massacre his name with my East Texas accent. That’s likely to happen two or three times. But Wissam, welcome to Faith and Clarity and tell us a little bit about you and your journey of faith and your call to ministry, and anything else you want to tell us about yourself as we begin.

Wissam al-Saliby: Thank you so much, Mark. Thank you for having me on the Denison Forum and you got all the names right. Thank you. I, I am Lebanese and I grew up in Lebanon. My family background and my family remains Orthodox, but as a [00:05:00] teenager there was a period of my life where I was a practicing Orthodox Christian, and then I was invited.

I got invited to an evangelical. Ceremony, preaching ceremony. That’s, and that’s where the gospel message was relayed in a much clearer way than i, I was used to. And that’s where, you know, in the, when the preacher said at the end, who will lift his hand, you know, who wants to lift his hand and give his life to Christ?

And I lifted my hand as a teenager back then. I remember that. And then after that, I, I, I became an evangelical. Hmm. I, I believe I was always a Christian, but the clarity of relationship with God and with Jesus and the study of the, the study of the Bible, the word of God, much more intently. You know, that that came when, at the, in the Evangelical Church.

Hmm. And that, so as a teenager my family are still orthodox, but I was, I was I wanted to [00:06:00] follow Jesus in an evangelical church and ever since. The end of the nineties, I was a practicing evangelical and that’s how my life and faith started the faith journey. And then, and then having grown in a, my first seven years were during the Lebanese Civil War.

Hmm. And then after that, in a post-conflict country and society. So when the moment came that I wanted to go to college, I chose law. I wanted to do something at where there is public service. I wanted to do something where I could feel like I could address the problems of human rights and societal and conflict and the lack of peace, and as a peacemaker, and that’s why I studied law and then did my master’s degree with the focus on international human rights law and humanitarian law.

So that’s my faith journey. And then also my, my journey in terms of what I, what I studied that would shape. Shaped my [00:07:00] career. And between 2006 and 2013, I worked in the field of human rights, as you mentioned. I, I, I worked, I was working to advocate for protection of civilians and armed conflict, which unfortunately, there’s, there’s a lot of conflict.

There’s a need to advocate for this always. Mm-hmm. In the Middle East, up until 2013 when I felt. That I wanted to move to a ministry where I could work with the churches in the Middle East, you know, and when I’m, when I went to my job interview at the Arab Baptist Theological Seminary, I told him I want to move to ministry.

And the head of the seminary, he said, we, we saw you work on human rights, is a ministry also. And you know, and then I told them, yes, but I wanted to be. I wanted to be with the church, with the, with the leaders, with, with closer, somewhere closer. And that’s how I moved to working at the Arab, a [00:08:00] theological seminary with the church all over the Arab world.

And I, you know, when, when I joined the ministry, I didn’t know what I signed up for. I was working with Arab church leaders from all over the Arab world. Amazing. All the way from Morocco to Yemen Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Tunisia. Men and women called to ministry, to plant churches in contexts that are not the easiest in the world.

And in this journey, you know, you discover that there’s persecution. You discover that on one hand there’s a lot of, you know, there’s fruit of the church, that there’s, God is calling men and women to serve, but then at the same time. They’re kicked out of the house or the government comes and visits, or the church is sealed by the police the church building or the church meeting place.

So that’s, that’s, that’s the ministry I had in Lebanon up until in [00:09:00] 2018 God called me and my family. By then I was married and I had a daughter. God called us to go to Geneva to work directly on the issue of British freedom. The World Evangelic Alliance needed. Someone who in Evangelical, committed to ministry and to the church with a human rights background.

And, you know, we prayed about it. It, we were, you know, I had this combination and we prayed about it and then we moved to Geneva there. So that’s how I ended up in this, kind of, in this ministry role 2018, up until last year, April, 2024. And then in, in the end, at the end of April of last year, we moved to Texas.

And took the new position and role with 21 Wilberforce to, with more responsibilities to advocate for international religious freedom. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Okay. Well that’s a, that’s a, a good segue and background to telling us a little bit about what 21 Wilberforce is. Some of our [00:10:00] followers may remember we had your predecessor, the founder of 21 Wilberforce Randall Everett on our podcast.

But it’s been a couple of years now. And you have been in this position about 18 months. Remind our audience what is 21 Wilberforce and what is the mission that 21 Wilberforce is pursuing around the world? 

Wissam al-Saliby: A decade ago, Dr. Randall Everett, but then he was the senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Midland.

Hmm. He, he had a calling to move from the pastoral ministry of a church to working to support British freedom globally. There, the majority of the world’s population lives in countries where they do not enjoy the full extent of the right to religious freedom. And that is, that is, that’s, you know, that is unacceptable.

To, you know, especially as a Christian where we believe we are all created in the image of God. Randall Everett [00:11:00] and the team back then, they, they had a calling to address this, to plight of those who are persecuted. And then the name 21 Wilberforce came from a question, and the question was, what would William Berg force do to advocate today in the 21st century for the cause of religious freedom?

Just just like he did in the late 1700 and early 18 hundreds when he advocated against slavery. And he led bottom up advocacy, grassroots, and then top down meaning in Parliament. So he did the, a form of advocacy that today, if he were to do it again for religious freedom, how he, how would he do it?

And that’s how the name came about. The 21 Wilberforce, the 21st century Wilberforce. Initiative. And today we, we, we just say 21 Wilberforce. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. And just trying to carry out that same [00:12:00] spirit that drove Wilberforce so passionately that many people have read about, learned about, and hoped to emulate as well.

And yeah. So it’s just a, a beautiful ministry that like I said, has a global focus. Of bringing religious freedom all around the world under this idea that true faith can never be forced, right? It, it has to be freely embraced. It has to be freely chosen and cannot be coerced along upon people.

And we, we want to get into understanding that in a deeper way. Wissam, I, I read one of your blog posts. I know you write there regularly but I saw this quote from you. You said, I believe defending religious freedom is part of the mission of God. And I guess we could say beyond that, a part of the mission of the church.

Can you kind of, explain a little bit further? I know you’ve referenced it a bit already, but how do you see this work of pursuing and and [00:13:00] seeking religious freedom for all people To be really at the heart of the great commission to go and make disciples? It’s really something that ought to be at the heart of the mission of the local church, just worship or evangelism or fellowship.

Or missions, how do, how do you see that being an expression of the overall mission of God in the world? 

Wissam al-Saliby: Thank you, mark. This is a very important question that I would, there’s many, there are many answers to the question, but the way I like to start answering is from the vantage point of those who are facing persecution, those who are facing persecution are often called.

To speak up against persecution, to advocate and to do that, you need to do, you know, you need to understand what is jus freedom under human rights law. You need to understand how you do the reporting. You document what is happening. [00:14:00] You need to understand how you engage your own government. I’ll give you an example.

You know, in one of the countries we work in you know, a pastor was, was dragged to the police station by. By a, by a group, a mob, a a local mob group. And, you know, and this pastor was you know, came out from the police station not knowing if there was a court case, what he could, if, if there, if the police would come again and knock on his doors.

So 21 War Force facilitated through our network a visit to that pastor by. The, the local by the, by the Christian ministries that does advocacy within that country that support British freedom within that country. What is important to see is that the local churches already had the structures to visit, come alongside pastors, work with them to feed them from prison, go to the courts, and even in some cases, challenge the government and the Supreme Court in the highest [00:15:00] courts.

Dr. Mark Turman: Hmm. 

Wissam al-Saliby: So from what, from the vantage point of the church that is suffering persecution, they are planting churches. They are missional, they’re answering God’s calling to share the gospel and to show how God loves everyone. At the same time when persecution happens, they are equipped or need to be equipped to, to, to push back against this persecution, to free those who are in prison.

To go to the court to reduce the stress on the pastors who face face the, some of the local hostility. So advocacy and evangelism go hand in hand, and this is, we’re talking at the local level. Now when it comes to a church here in the United States, I, I, when I visit church, I tell them, we talk about the unity of the body.

What is more representative of unity of the church? What is more preventative other than, you know, calling a church [00:16:00] that’s or a convention, a Baptist convention or an Evangelical fellowship, calling them and saying, we’ve heard that there’s been violence in your country, that there’s been incidents of discrimination.

You know, we’re praying for you. We want to know how we can support you. Mm-hmm. You know, it’s not just about. Supporting, you know, there’s a lot of resources and that’s wonderful. Resources being sent to plant churches to have send missionaries. But also there’s a dimension of when a, a national Evangelical convention or body in Africa and Asia and the Middle East, or a grouping of churches, a denomination, when they are facing.

Violence and persecution. Part of our calling is also to, to, to make them feel that they, we are with them. And we see this in the, in, in acts. In Acts. We see that Paul, when he was in prison, there were churches that sent him care packages that they were praying for him, that they were coming alongside him and resourcing him as he was [00:17:00] journeying in, in prison, but also in his advocacy to go to Caesar and take up his case with Caesar.

So these, this is how I see, the connection between our calling for to, as a churches for evangelism, for shedding the gospel and God love for planning churches. And alongside that comes creating the, a ministry, the component of the ministry, a team, a department initiative that helps advocate for religious freedom, that helps advocate to change either the laws or change the behavior of the authorities.

Hmm. So you, you see, I gave you an answer from the vantage point of those persecuted, but then also from the vantage point of us here in the United States. But there’s also one more vantage point, and I, I saw this more clearly when I was in Geneva. When we were speaking at the Human Rights Council. We were speaking to diplomats in Geneva, and our prayer then was to speak not as.

You know, [00:18:00] someone coming with our own authority, but as ambassadors of Jesus Christ. Hmm. We need to look at the vantage point of the authorities and governments that are committing persecution. They need to hear the message of saying, no, what you’re doing is wrong, and they need to hear it from ambassadors of Christ.

That is part of saying God requires justice from you, requires righteousness. You who is in power, and they need to hear this message clearly from the church. Not, and again, from the church, not as complicit with worldly powers, but from the church as ambassadors of Christ with humility, perseverance, and you know, an invitation to repentance.

So this is just a part of the answer, mark to your question. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. Such a, yeah, such a lot. So much to think about, obviously. And I’m, I’m glad that you referenced the Book of Acts because as I was preparing and thinking about our conversation today, I was thinking about, you know, how [00:19:00] much of that do you see not only in Jesus’ life, but also in the Book of Acts, in the development of the early church, you see?

You see people getting arrested, you see them being mocked. You see them at times being beaten. We know that story in Act seven of Stephen as the first martyr in after the birth of the early church. Some, I just was wondering, are there one or two passages or stories in the Bible that really motivate you?

And motivate the work of 21 Wilberforce when it, I, I, yeah. I have this sense that in America, you know, we just don’t wake up on a Sunday morning and fear that we’re gonna get arrested on the way to worship, or that our church is going to be locked or things like that are going to happen. And so it can be, at times hard for us to relate to some of those stories in the Bible and some of these.

Realities that are happening in the world even today. I just wonder, is there, is there a biblical passage that really [00:20:00] inspires and motivates you and your work in this, in this journey? 

Wissam al-Saliby: The passage that most motivates me is Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus, because that is our ultimate hope and prayer is that those who are persecuting would encounter Jesus.

Their lives would be to be turned upside down and then they would join the church. And in my ministry over, you know, in the last decade, we have seen such conversions, not enough. We need to pray for more conversion. But that is the ultimate hope and prayer is that those who who hear the message, our message who are persecuting the church, they would come to know Jesus.

Hmm. 

Dr. Mark Turman: You know, that, that, that makes me think about I, I watched recently a documentary about Corey Tin Boone and how, you know, she was she and her family were so [00:21:00] persecuted in the midst of the Nazi regime and how she and her family became witnesses and testimonies even to the people that imprisoned them and beat them and mistreated them.

Which, which makes me wonder if you could tell us a little bit, you’ve, you’ve alluded to it already, but 21 Wilberforce is, is focused on helping people that are being persecuted. People that have had the, not only their religious freedom stripped away from them, but other human rights as well.

Can you tell us one or two stories of what that looks like on the ground level today of. What, what people in various places around the world are, are actually experiencing that they actually do maybe get arrested when they are at church, or they can’t get into their church to worship because the doors are locked or the pastor’s been arrested.

Can you tell us some recent stories? Couple of stories of how that has happened actually on [00:22:00] the ground recently. 

Wissam al-Saliby: Yes, there are many stories. You know, persecution takes many forms. There’s before I tell the story, let me share a shared, like how persecution happens. It takes many forms. There is the, the most basic form is discrimination.

Hmm. And, you know, the, you know, I’m always in touch with the Baptist pastor, the, the pastor of the Baptist church in Baghdad. He’s a good friend of mine. And the most basic form of discrimination means. You are not officially recognized. So you cannot, as a, as a denomination, as a church, you cannot own the church building the burial ground.

You know, the, the kindergarten that you want to establish this is, this is a form of discrimination. And then persecution goes all the way through, you know, mob violence. We see this in some cases. We saw it in Pakistan a couple of years ago. Where you know, church, churches and Christians were attacked in a mob violence.

We saw it also in some [00:23:00] cases in India. And then you have persecution by the government. And a, a recent example is Algerian authorities shutting down and sealing all the buildings where the Algerian Church is worshiping. And a recent case, if you want to me to give you a most, a recent case, is one of the Indian states called Assam in India.

They enacted a law against witchcraft, which seems to be okay. Do you want to limit witchcraft? Fine, except that the first person who was put in prison was a Baptist pastor who prayed for healing. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Mm. 

Wissam al-Saliby: So they converted a law that seemingly seemed innocuous to a, a tool of persecution happening within a context where.

You know where in India where there’s a lot of states have had enacted anticon conversion laws that criminalize conversion, that, that consider people to be minors. [00:24:00] They’re not, they don’t, they cannot decide on their own how to follow God. So this is, this is, this is, these are cases that are happening.

So I actually, I had to, I had a chance to meet with the pastors who worked to free the, the, the pastor who was in prison. I got the chance to visit with them to learn about more about this case. You know, what is important is to know that there, you know, we pray for local structures to free up the pastors to be active so that you know, they’re not left alone.

Other examples of persecution? You know, I was in Nigeria last month and we’ve heard about women we met with. Pastors who, who, who face violence, who face violence that is coming from not the state, but from armed groups, from you know, religiously motivated armed groups. In some cases, Islamists and you know, and where the government is not doing enough to protect them.

And that’s [00:25:00] another form of persecution that we’re actively trying to work with the Christians in Nigeria. To, to change, to change the reality which is very difficult. But the, the church has a calling to do this kind of work. Yeah. You know? Absolutely. And then, yeah. And then if I want to give the last foremost persecution, which is martyrdom.

I give two examples from Lebanon. In the last two decades, we’ve had two foreigners who were killed because they were serving in Lebanon, an American lady, and a Jordanian. Man who came to faith and fled Jordan to Lebanon. He was another calling of ministry. And that is these are two cases that I’m familiar with because I’m, I’m from Lebanon, so I’m aware of the circumstances of how things happen and, but we praise God that this is becoming less, at least in, in the Middle East.

This is, you know, more to them. Is is no longer the biggest problem, but [00:26:00] there are still, there’s still violations and threats. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. And, and seems like it comes in cycles sometimes. I, I, I have in my mind thinking about the I believe it was 12 Egyptian Coptic Christians who were Marty. Not too many years ago, and those stories still stay with us.

It’s just amazing that, you know, in our modern world, we’re still living with these kinds of discriminations and persecutions and outright violence. It’s just amazing that it, it still goes on, but it’s very active in the world. Wissam we’re wanting to know a little bit more. About the work of 21 Wilberforce perhaps more broadly as it relates to human rights, but particularly obviously about the right of religious freedom.

But can you talk about how that is the passion of your work, not just for Christians, but for all people? You know, we, we wouldn’t want to go down a road of trying to achieve religious freedom for [00:27:00] some and not for all. Can you talk about how that is at the core of what y’all are trying to do at 21 Wilberforce?

That this is about basic human dignity, basic human rights and religious freedom for Christians, but for everyone. Unpack that a little bit for us. 

Wissam al-Saliby: We are a Christian organization, or we, we are founded as Christians because we believe that everyone is created in the image of God. Everyone. God, this intention is for every single human being to have the freedom to choose to enter into a relationship with him.

And that is the foundation for our commitment to religious freedom. You know, and we believe that the Holy Spirit works, but they need to, the people need to have the freedom. To access information to understand where God is calling them. And that is why we believe religious freedom should be for everyone, no exceptions, strategically.

So this is more the [00:28:00] theology and the, the, there’s the promotion. Strategically, you cannot have religious freedom in a given country for a subset of group, for, for a specific group of people. You cannot. You know, if you’re, if you’re, if you, if you’re thinking like when you want Jewish freedom, it has to be for everyone.

If, if the Christians enjoy Jewish freedom, they, it is gonna cause resentment and backlash against them. You cannot have that. Everyone needs to be free. Strategically speaking so that the Christians would have the freedom. In most contexts in the world, Christians are persecuted, but then something may other minority groups are also persecuted.

Is, you know, so every we, we need to advocate for freedom for everyone. And I would have to say it is unfortunate that some groups advocate for Christians only. We are Christians. We want the, we want the churches to be free and the Christian free, but we advocate for religious freedom for everyone. When I was in Geneva, I remember some [00:29:00] of the diplomats of countries that commit persecution.

They would try to dismiss us. They will try to message, as I say, you are, you are an interest group, you’re not a human rights advocacy group. And then we tell them, no, actually you’re not following our work. We are actually advocating for freedom for everyone. And we invited Muslim groups and humanist, atheist groups to join us in some statements, in some events, particularly for that country that we’re working on.

We thought we invited them so that they can, you know, we gave a platform. To other faith groups strategically, because that raises the profile, that strengthens our advocacy, that fulfills our purpose so that you have British freedom and the churches are, the evangelical churches can worship freely. So for all these reasons, we need to advocate for freedom for everyone.

Dr. Mark Turman: Hmm. And, and I assume along with that, tell me if this is true, that. In that context, that [00:30:00] Christianity, the message of the gospel and the, the, the beauty and attractiveness of Jesus and his his mission to save us through his sacrifice, that that message can be very beautiful, very compelling anywhere in the world.

If, as long as people are free to talk about it and pursue it and ask questions, is, would that be true? 

Wissam al-Saliby: Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s the work of the Holy Spirit and the message of salvation. When people are free you know, they can make decisions much easier than having to factor in the risk of persecution and, and yeah.

And. I mean, that’s, that’s also connected by the way, to the history of America. You, this is how you started the conversation. You mentioned the history of the United States and Right. And when Baptists were persecuted in Europe, they came here and many of them were, were persecuted again, but they advocated for religious freedom for everyone.

And, [00:31:00] and, and I want, I’ll give you one more one more story just to understand what we’re talking about. When I was a teenager, I joined an evangelical church when I moved to the Evangelical church and was following Jesus at the church. And there was a young man who like me you know, he, he was from a Christian background, orthodox background, and he was living in the church at the time.

And, and, and there were, there were a couple of rooms in the church where he was living. I thought that he came from far away. And that, you know, to study at college, he needed to be in Beirut. So he lived at the, that wasn’t the case. He had, he was kicked out of his house by his Christian family because they became evangelicals.

Hmm. But they were kicked, kicked out by his dad, kicked him out because he left the Orthodox Church. In my case, my family were asking me why did I leave the Orthodox church? They didn’t kick me [00:32:00] out. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Hmm. 

Wissam al-Saliby: So I’m, I’m giving this example again to tie it to issues of religiou freedom for everyone. Mm-hmm. That when we talk about persecution, it’s not just the religious other, it’s unfortunately, sometimes CLA is tribal.

It’s within even the, within the Christian community. Mm. So now the one, the, the, the ending of that story of my friend in that church. He reconciled with his family. And Moses, his family, did become evangelical and followed 

Dr. Mark Turman: Jesus. 

Wissam al-Saliby: So that was a wonderful ending. But I’m giving you this example just so you know that it’s, it’s, it’s yeah, it’s much more complex and complicated than, than, than some of the narratives that we hear sometimes.

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, it take takes many forms and, and occurs in all kinds of different relationships and, and structures of people inside families and outside families beyond that, into the community. You mentioned a couple of times already just the, the work of advocacy that goes on in places [00:33:00] like Washington, DC goes on.

Places where you’ve worked like Geneva on an international scale, that religious freedom is called out as a core human right. As you’ve been in these circles many times at the table where conversations around religious freedom as a basic human right are happening, what do you think needs to change?

What, what needs to move forward so that the role of adv, adv advocacy and policy. Law, how can those things become more effective in the pursuit of religious freedom?

Wissam al-Saliby: There is amazing work being done in Washington DC in Geneva and London and elsewhere in support of religious freedom. However, what we currently believe is the missing piece in the puzzle is a much stronger. Voice of those who are persecuted, [00:34:00] that they have stronger capacity to advocate, to do the research, to speak up to their own government.

I was in Geneva and we did great work, but our weakness, and I believe is the same thing now in Washington DC Oh. The weakness is we cannot do. You know, we cannot do the work without stronger input, stronger research by the local people in countries of persecution, whether it is in Africa, Latin America, middle East, Asia.

So what is needed is a bigger investment in the capacity in the institutions, in the Christian, in the churches, in the evangelical fellowships, and in denominational conventions in their capacity. Hmm. To lead on advocacy, they need to have the lawyers, and the researchers they need to be able to [00:35:00] produce the data that informs international advocacy that is missing today.

I, I’ll give you an example. There’s a lot of advocacy on Nigeria, rightly however. If you, if you, if you, if you do the research, you will see that some people are saying a hundred thousand killed. Others are saying 50,000 killed. Others are saying 10,000 killed. Hmm. There is, I mean, there’s a big problem in Africa related to how do you count the victims of violence, but specifically if you’re doing advocacy, it’s too easy for the government, any government to dismiss your advocacy if they say your figures are baseless.

Or your figures are not of Christian persecution because many people have died from many communities and not because of their faith. And so the solution to this is stronger domestic advocacy in kind persecution. And I’m not just talking about inviting a bishop, inviting [00:36:00] an evangelical leader to Washington, DC for a panel that’s not enough.

They need to have the human resources in those countries, and that’s where Wilberforce is currently investing our, our work and effort. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Interesting. 

Wissam al-Saliby: This morning I had a meeting with we had a virtual meeting to follow up on our visit to Nigeria. We met with the leaders of five Christian nonprofits in Nigeria this morning to, to pursue the work in terms of how can we help them do the research and then how can we help them do the campaigning.

And that’s, that’s an ongoing effort currently by Wilberforce. We would like to see them strengthened. We would like to see them speaking up and us taking more like a backseat role. And again, in DC in Geneva elsewhere, we cannot do the work without stronger input and leadership by the local church.

Dr. Mark Turman: Hmm. Yeah. And you would, you would want both both pastors and church members as well as politicians and diplomats to [00:37:00] really advocate for these initiatives, to be able to raise the, the funding and the the mechanisms necessary. Because you want, you want data driven research, right? You wanna be able to speak accurately about what is happening and what needs to change.

Otherwise, like you said, it’s easy for. People in power to dismiss those calls for change and those calls for action. Wissam, you, you mentioned Nigeria as one example. I read some of your work on your website in this area. Even when you’re talking about the Middle East, like Lebanon and other places in the Middle East, many of us in America, we wonder at times if there is any, any kind of significant witness in some of these places around the world, like the Middle East.

In comparison or, or in relationship to places like Nigeria? Are there other, what might be called hotspots of religious oppression and [00:38:00] persecution that y’all have identified that you would want us to pray about, that you would want us to to try to advocate for if we have opportunity to do that?

Many, many people talk about China those kinds of places. What places would you want people to focus on in addition to Nigeria? 

Wissam al-Saliby: Yeah, the, what we need to pray for is the hotspots and the spots that are where there’s persecution, but they’re not hot enough to make it to our daily news feed. You know, the.

So the, I mean, the reality is, and I mentioned this, most of the world’s population live in countries where they do not enjoy religious freedom. And it’s not always violent persecution. I mean, again, I gave the example of Algeria where the government basically said, you know, there’s 30, 40 churches that are physical open churches.

We’re gonna shut them down. And they did [00:39:00] it, and they, they didn’t face any backlash. But also no one was hurt in this meaning, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s low level, it’s ongoing persecution. Some many pastors were, were threatened with court sentences. And later, later in appeal, they were you know, the sentences were, were canceled.

But I’m just so where we want to pray, I mean, there. China, India and Nigeria together have a, have a population of you know, two and a half billion or more of the world. And that these are countries where there is violence, there’s government persecution, there’s, there are challenges, and then you add to it Pakistan and then Myanmar.

And we are currently working with with several of these countries, not all of them. We’re working in several of these countries and we’re seeing the, the, the persecution. I gave examples from Nigeria. I gave examples from India. [00:40:00] And, you know, and, and in Pakistan also, I gave, you know, I can give an example.

In 2020 2022, there was large scale mob violence that destroyed a lot of Christian homes and churches. And you know, and, and at least in that country, the government said, we are going to work on this and recognize the problem and they want to address it. At least in that country, I’m very grateful that they, they set a positive example of how to deal with, with the, with the, with their situation.

You know, but but to, to pray, I mean, you know, I mean, an Eritrea. We did a campaign earlier this year in Eritrea. There are you know, we need to keep going the campaign, but there are around 15 church leaders in prison for two decades. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Hmm. Wow. 

Wissam al-Saliby: You know, it’s not a hotspot, but it’s a, it’s the most incredible injustice that put church leaders, orthodox and [00:41:00] evangelical in prison between 2004, 2005.

They’re still there without a court sentence, you know? So in that sense it’s, it’s incredibly oppressive, but it’s not hot enough to make the news. And so that’s so I don’t know where to start, mark. I mean, you really you’re telling me to choose and I cannot because it’s not about the numbers.

You know, if you want the numbers, you can go to Nigeria, but the reality of. Pastors, you know, threatened feeling, you know, having to go to court because there’s a, there’s a, there’s a court, court sent, you know, a court case against them for, because they, you know, they were caught with a gospel. You know, I read the, I, I read the court document once that they said that he had with him the Gospel of Luke, and I was like, how could, how could even the government even put that in a document?

To say that he, he’s, you know, he’s proselytizing with the Gospel of Luke, so this is, you know, most countries of the world, the Middle East, Africa, Asia, there is [00:42:00] persecution. I cannot put a priority because I, we need, we need to pray. Pray for cases, pray for examples for people, if specifically, and to learn about it.

If, if you can subscribe to our newsletter, you will learn what I’m talking about. You will have some of these stories and cases we can share about them. You know,

Dr. Mark Turman: yeah, yeah. It makes me makes me think of some of my friends in Cuba had a chance to travel there. And we have connections with a very vibrant ministry on the island of Cuba.

The founder when I was there, hesitated to come to the airport because whenever he came to the airport, the government officials, law enforcement would search him sometimes detain him. Those types of things simply because he came to the airport either to welcome people coming into the country that were coming to see his ministry, or people who were leaving to go outta the country.

If he showed up at the airport, they had him identified and would sometimes you know, hassle him or. [00:43:00] Bring some kind of pressure against him simply because he was at the airport. So some of these things, and you know, for my friend Carlos, it’s been going that way for, you know, two or three decades.

It’s not, it’s not something that happened in the last three weeks. It’s been going on for decade after decade, and it just is amazing. I mean, thank 

Wissam al-Saliby: you, mark. I mean, in, in God’s economy, we need to be praying for the pastor. We pray for the a million, a church, a church with a million member who are persecuted, but also in the case of Cuba, to pray for the pastor because his impact with God’s kingdom mistakes.

So I, that’s why I don’t like to say hotspot. We need to stay in, stay informed, and pray and learn, you know, because in most countries of the world, we have stories of, of such incidents happening and persecution happening, right? And you’re asking about hotpots. I mean, when I was in Geneva. I worked on Italy and Spain because Italy and Spain shut down evangelical churches using zoning laws.[00:44:00] 

Dr. Mark Turman: Hmm. 

Wissam al-Saliby: You know, you know, I mean, it, it is. And, and can you imagine a pastor? We, we, we brought a pastor from Italy to Geneva to advocate against Italy, and the Italians were shocked because they would see that for other countries, but not for them. And that pastor said. You shut down my church because of a zoning law, I am unable to open an Evangelical church officially.

You know? And and then, and then it’s a violation of a freedom of belief and the Italians, and, and same thing for in, in some, not the, so basically we’re talking about zoning laws within specific districts and states within Italy and within Spain. Not at the national level, but it’s everywhere. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Hmm.

No. Yeah, it just takes so many different forms. Even in places like what you just called out, you know, none of us would’ve immediately associated persecution with Spain or Italy. You know, but it, it takes, it takes a lot of different forms and a lot of different places that you would never suspect.

Wsam, as we, as [00:45:00] we wrap up today I wonder, as our listeners are thinking about this, many of them are pastors or church leaders. What would be your call to action for us? As, as a way of saying and opening up our minds and our hearts to say, God, what would you want me to be a part of?

How would you want me to involve myself in this part of the mission of the gospel, of making it possible for every person in the world to freely hear the religious claims, the spiritual claims of Jesus along with any others that they may be inclined to hear. How can, how can individual believers in churches become involved with 21 Wilberforce and other efforts, perhaps, but particularly with 21 Wilberforce, how can people come in, become involved in what y’all are working on?

Wissam al-Saliby: Yes. First be informed. I, I, I’m surprised, I’m always surprised I shouldn’t be, but I mean that, you know, people who, who are in faith for decades, they, they don’t know how much is [00:46:00] happening in other countries. With, with people in their same denomination, you know, not just evangelical, but within the same Presbyterian or Pentecostal or Baptist denomination.

We need to be informed of what’s happening. And it’s important, but not just informed in the sense where you know, so we need to underst, you know, again, it’s not about, you know, a hundred thousand being killed. No. Be informed and to understand more the nuances. Trying to dig deeper and understand.

Therefore, when we pray, we understand how to pray better. And that is, that is the second. So be well informed. Subscribe to our newsletter, 21 w four. So we try to capture the nuance of the challenges, the persecution that is happening, but also the opportunities to pray, not just for, but with those who are persecuted.

So be informed. Pray. Pray. So the. In November, we have the International Day of Prayer, and I like to say not just for the persecuted, but with the persecuted to understand how they are [00:47:00] praying and what they are asking for. And third, we invite people into to, to work with us and to to partner with us. And therefore, if you go to our website, ww dot 21 will go force.org.

You can read more, but also you can donate. Our ministry runs through through the generosity of people in Texas and in the United States. And that’s how we can pursue the work we do everywhere around the world. We invite people into very practical, solid partnerships through giving to 21 World War Force.

If you commit to us, to giving to us, this is, this is how you are partnering in everything I just described, how we’re working with the Nigerians, with those in Asia, in the Middle East. And supporting their, their advocacy for religious freedom. 

Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. That’s a great outline for us to follow.

So I just wanna take a word and, and say thanks to you and thanks to our audience for listening today as we learn about religious freedom and [00:48:00] religious persecution all around the world in various places. If you wanna know more about Wilbur 21 Wilbur Force and how you can become involved. Some of these initiatives around the world as wisdom just shared with you, 21 wilberforce.org.

You can read, you can learn, you can become informed, you can subscribe to the newsletter, and you can ask God how he would want you and your church. To become engaged. Maybe there’s a person or a part of the world or a congregation in other parts of the world that you could become partners with, and those can be people where you can really focus.

We understand that it’s a global problem. It can be so big as to just overwhelm us. If we will pray, if we will ask God, God, direct our steps. Show us where we can make a difference, show us where we can become involved, where we can partner with great ministries like 21 Wilberforce and other believers in other places so that every person has the freedom.

To worship God according to the dictates of their [00:49:00] conscience and the freedom to hear the gospel that is so important to all of us here at Denison Forum and in other places around the world. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being a part of this podcast. If it’s been helpful, please rate and review and share this with others and we’ll see you next time on Faith and Clarity.