Remembering 9/11: A pastor's family on faith amid tragedy

Mark Turman: [00:00:01] Welcome to Faith and Clarity. I'm Mark Turman. Thanks for joining us. We want to equip you as always with clarity in this world of confusion. As Christ followers, it's our desire to see you as well as ourselves to live with compassion, with conviction, as well as with civility. And we want to enable you through today's conversation to look beyond the headlines and to experience more of the hope that we have in Christ so that we live by faith, not by fear.

Mark Turman: [00:28] As you know, we're turning into September and this is a very significant month and a very significant year as we mark the 25th anniversary of the attacks on 9/11, 2001. It's just days away before we mark that moment. As I've talked to people recently, I've noticed that some just want to get past the day. For others, in many ways, they'll never get past this day. They just continue to cope with it and work with it. Today, we are talking about the ongoing impact of that moment, uh, 25 years ago for Americans and especially for us as American Christians.

Mark Turman: [01:07] Uh, today, I'm excited to introduce to you some of my friends. Our guests are Keith and Dee Ann Boyd. Uh, they have been in ministry, I think I can say, guys, longer than I have. And so, um, I'm happy to be able to say that. But they lived and raised a family in New York City, uh, for 25 years while Keith was the pastor of Trinity Baptist in Manhattan, right in the heart of the city, as well as on that day, 25 years ago, 9/11, 2001. And so they've agreed to come and share a little bit about their experience and their testimony of how things happened on that day. And we hope to bring to light, uh, an understanding, um, a remembrance, an appreciation, um, and a big boatload of hope we we hope, uh, through this conversation. So, uh, in honor of all of those that we lost and in honor of those, uh, who remember and hold them dear even today and for our country, I just want to say, uh, let's roll. Let's get into it. Dee Ann, Keith, welcome to the Faith and Clarity podcast.

Keith Boyd: [02:19] Thanks.

Dee Ann Boyd: [02:20] Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Mark Turman: [02:22] Well, we want to thank you again for taking some time to be with us. And so I just want to, uh, this is a story I don't think I've ever heard myself, even though we shared friendship across the years. But as Texas Aggies, how in the world did you end up in New York City pastoring a church?

Keith Boyd: [02:39] Oh, that's a, that's a long story that could take up the whole hour, but, um, we, we were, we were on staff with Young Life in Denton at the time and, um, Dee Ann and I neither of us had ever been to New York and my, my dad was a, a physician at the time and he had a medical meeting in New York City and he said, hey, if you guys want to come, I'll tote the note. And we said, hey, we're in, let's go.

Dee Ann Boyd: [03:15] We had no money.

Keith Boyd: [03:16] We had no money. And so, you know, free trip to New York City, let's go. Um, we were there for a long weekend in the fall of 1990 and, and independent of each other over the four days that we were there, we both felt like something was going on in us. And to the point that when we were on the plane flying back to DFW, um, it was kind of like, hey, what did you think? And how did you feel? And she was going, I felt, how did you feel? And and so by the time we landed, we were trying to figure out a way to get back to New York. Um, over the course of the next 10 months, um, we just had this strong desire to be in the city and I, um, I read a book by Gordon McDonald called Forging a Real World Faith, which chronicled his journey to and then subsequent ministry in the city. And Dee Ann read part of it and she said, you need to write this guy. And I'm not in the habit of writing authors. Um, but in this, you know, this is before Al Gore invented the internet and so we, we had to actually write a letter. And so I, I wrote him and just basically chronicled our, my journey, our journey over the previous 10 months or so and, um, a couple of weeks later, I got a letter back from him asking me some questions and and I responded to his letter and then he called me and said, we're looking for an associate pastor and would you be interested? And so, um, we, they ended up, uh, flying me up because Dee Ann was two weeks away from having our firstborn and, um, and so I did the interview weekend without her, but we were on the phone a lot.

Dee Ann Boyd: [05:36] And still and still got the job.

Keith Boyd: [05:37] And still got the job amazingly. Um, so we, we moved to New York City in February of 92 and with a eight week old and, and I served as Gordon's associate for about a year and then he left to go back to a church that he had helped start outside of Boston and they asked me to serve as the interim and I ended up serving as the interim for 25 years. Um, um, interim as all pastors are, right? It's all. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Um, so it was, um, it was a great, great journey. We, uh, we raised our three children there. Uh, two of, two of our kids are, are still there. They live and work in New York and and our oldest is in Austin, which is why we are in Austin now. So that's the reader's digest sort condensed of it.

Mark Turman: [06:47] Wow. And I, that just as a fellow pastor, that kind of makes my head spin just how fast God can move you when, um, when he has a plan to move you, uh, and then not only to move, move in the winter with a baby to New York City. Um, and then all of a sudden, hey, here's, here's the reigns of the church. How do you feel about that? That's, that's a pretty, that's a pretty fast experience just, uh, on the face of it.

Mark Turman: [07:13] Uh, Dee Ann, tell us a little bit about, I imagine this was pretty mind blowing of, hey, we're going to raise a family in New York City. Um, what was that like? Um, most of us as Texans, uh, don't relate to that idea of being in a city like New York, um, and having small kids, um, those kinds of things. Tell us a little bit what it was like to raise the family and what it was like to serve in this environment.

Dee Ann Boyd: [07:41] You know, actually we loved it. It was very different from our own upbringing, of course, but, um, you know, we, we, we got there with a newborn. And so we never knew what it was like to have kids in any other situation. So we never had cars and backyards and and things that made things easier in a different way. So, you know, we arrived with a, with a seven week old baby and, um, and then a few years later had twins. And so we raised our three kids there. We loved it. Um, you know, kids, uh, there's so many opportunities in the city and, um, uh, our kids did, uh, you know, went to, went to public schools. Well, two of them did. They, you know, the way that the school system works there is really difficult, which sends a lot of people out of the city by the time they have kids, they just leave. But we loved it and raising kids in the city, I mean, our kids went to school on the subway. And so, you know, it's just a different, it's just a whole different game. You know, but they're also, they grow up, uh, in a really multicultural situation, which we loved. They also grow up in being really street savvy. Um, they just kind of, and they also grow up with a kind of a confidence that I can go to London, I can go to Paris, wherever there's, you know, uh, if there's a subway or whatever, no big deal. I can navigate my way through. And, um, so, uh, we really loved it. It provided a lot of opportunities for them in the kind of schools that they ended up testing into, they ended up, um, getting some great opportunities there and we lived in a place which was kind of the crossroads where many of the, um, the subways in Manhattan, uh, the crossroads are sort of at 59th Street and Lexington, and we lived at 61st and Lexington. So we were right at the crossroads of where, uh, it was real easy for all of their friends to be at our house and they were. And it was, it was fun.

Mark Turman: [09:58] Yeah, well, you, you have to qualify the term house because I've talked with y'all a little bit before this. And this is where Texans, uh, and people in, you know, outside of New York might need to understand, you're raising three kids in how many square feet?

Keith Boyd: [10:13] 1150.

Dee Ann Boyd: [10:14] 1150 square feet.

Keith Boyd: [10:15] For 25 years.

Mark Turman: [10:17] I've, I've visited friends and people in New York raising families and, uh, yeah, living conditions and square footage is, it comes at a premium. Yes. And I, and I also heard the lyrics of the song as you were talking, Dee Ann, you know, your kids came to know if I can make it here, I can make it anywhere, right?

Dee Ann Boyd: [10:39] It's kind of true. It's kind of true.

Mark Turman: [10:42] Yeah. And that's, that's just the nature of New York and big, big cities, especially, uh, that's just kind of the nature of them.

Mark Turman: [10:49] Uh, obviously we're going to spend some time here in a minute, uh, talking mostly about 9/11, but just from a ministry standpoint or from a personal standpoint, were there some, you mentioned things that you love and just learning to raise capable and confident kids in that environment. From a ministry standpoint or a personal standpoint, some unique struggles, highlights or low lights that, um, would give us a little bit more sense of what it was like to live and do ministry there.

Keith Boyd: [11:19] Um, the church that that I pastored that we were a part of was so multi-ethnic, multicultural. On any given Sunday, probably 30 different languages could have been spoken. Um, we lived four, we lived one block away from the church and in the four minute commute that I had, uh, I would almost daily hear three or four different languages spoken on my way to work. And, uh, that was just the nature of the, that's the nature of the city. It was the nature of our church. And that, that brought different challenges, but also a lot of different opportunities. And that's the thing I think Dee Ann and I would agree that we miss the most about New, about, about life there. Just the diversity because, um, where we live now, it's, it's not. And so that was, that was one thing, that's the thing that comes immediately to mind for me.

Dee Ann Boyd: [12:41] Yeah. I think, um, I think, you know, one of the beautiful things was just, uh, to be educated in the different backgrounds and cultures. Um, and it was, and it wasn't like you were taking a class on some kind of culture. It's like you were, you were friends with people from all over the world. Yeah. And, um, and so of, of every socioeconomic, um, status as well. I mean, we, we had, um, UN ambassadors at our church. We had homeless people at our church. We had CEOs at our church. We, so people from all over the world and all of these different socioeconomic, uh, levels or status. And so that was, that was beautiful, a beautiful thing for us, but it's also when you're raising your kids, our kids learn to be poised in situations with homeless people and, uh, poised in places like we would take, we would take trips to Rwanda and build homes there. So that, so they were poised, they were, it was a, it was a really great environment to be because they would be poised, you, they could, they had the opportunity, we at least had the opportunity to try to train them to be poised in a situation like with, with on both ends of the spectrum, whether it was building houses in Rwanda, um, or it was, uh, uh, you know, knowing homeless people and interacting weekly, uh, or daily really with homeless people or also being invited over to celebrity CEOs homes and having dinner with them and knowing how to, as, as our kids, how to sort of bridge the whole gamut of what New York really is, which is both, both ends of the spectrum.

Mark Turman: [14:38] Yeah, and just like I said, kind of being thrown in the deep end to, to experience that and learn those skills, right? How to navigate all those different environments.

Mark Turman: [14:48] Let's, let's talk a little bit about, uh, this day that we're marking of 9/11. Um, I know that this is, um, uh, it's profound, uh, in so many different ways as we've talked about putting this conversation together. But just kind of walk us through that morning and through that day a little bit. I know there's so many things you could share, but just what were some of your first reactions, responses? Uh, I know even here in Texas, um, you know, many of us were like, we got to go get the kids out of school. Um, what was it like to be so close and to be so involved in this tragic moment?

Keith Boyd: [15:30] Want you go first?

Dee Ann Boyd: [15:31] Yeah.

Keith Boyd: [15:32] Um, I was meeting with a group of pastors that morning. We had a, a 9 o'clock, uh, prayer meeting, uh, at the Empire State Building. And so it was a beautiful September morning and Empire State Building's on 34th Street and I live on 61st and so it would be about a 30 minute walk and so I just thought, I'm just going to walk today. I'm not going to take the subway because it's so beautiful and so I'm, I'm walking down to, to the Empire and I hear all kinds of emergency vehicles and, and I asked somebody on the street, I said, do you know what's going on? And, and they said, uh, there's something happening, a plane crashed into one of the trade centers downtown. And, and so I looked down the avenue that I was walking and I could see this faint trail of smoke kind of blowing across the avenue. Um, I thought, oh, that's tragic. It's probably a private jet or something and, and but didn't, didn't think a whole lot about it, to be honest. Um, got in the elevator, went up to my, my meeting on the ninth floor of the Empire and literally within minutes of getting there, the alarms started sounding in the building and they evacuated us from the Empire State Building. And so we, at that point, as we were going down, there were TVs in some of the lobbies and, and the, the second plane had, had crashed into the, the North Tower and, um, or I guess it was the South Tower and they, um, you know, the, the news feeds were, were rolling and, and so being with these pastors, we, we walked out on 34th Street and just started praying. And not knowing what was going on, but, but, but praying for, um, praying for the city, praying for, uh, people in the towers and, and then we walked over to, um, a handful of us walked over to a, a friend of mine's office that was on 36th Street and, and he was on the 17th floor and we went up and he had windows facing south and by the time we got up to his office, um, the first tower had already fallen. And, uh, but we could see the, the North Tower still standing and smoke was obviously billowing out and, um, and so I literally saw the, the North Tower fall, um, not on television, but out of the window of my friend's office. Wow. And, um, you know, you're in a, in a state of disbelief. Um, we had a lot of, a number of people in our church worked downtown, some in the towers and, um, so, you know, we just, we just prayed. And then after, after feeling, um, I don't know, feeling disconnected or, or just, you know, you, you didn't know what to feel. It was just disbelief. And so finally, uh, several of us just said, you know, we have to go and we've got to go figure out what's next for us. And, um, so I, I walked back to the church and, uh, which was on 61st Street and, um, and we, you know, phones were down and so you weren't getting phone calls, but, um, a lot of people would show up and say, hey, what do we do now? And, and so we ended up, uh, just going to one of the local stores and buying all the water that we could and we walked over to the 59th Street Bridge, a handful of us and just started handing out water to people who were walking home. Um, because all the, all the transportation was shut down. And so people were…

Mark Turman: [20:38] Were y'all able to, were the two of y'all able to communicate that morning or not?

Keith Boyd: [20:43] No. No. All the, all the cell service was down and so you can tell them where you were.

Mark Turman: [20:52] Yeah. What was your question?

Dee Ann Boyd: [20:53] Where were you at this?

Mark Turman: [20:54] Yeah, where were you this morning?

Dee Ann Boyd: [20:55] Well, it's, uh, it's, it's kind of the craziest thing because I don't, I don't, I was in a place that I would never have been usually, but, um, uh, a handful of my friends and I were all turning 40 and there was a women's magazine that was doing a, uh, a story about us all turning 40 and they were going to do makeovers on all of us and do this makeover story on this group of friends that were going to go, uh, travel on a beach trip together for their 40th birthday. So anyway, it was one of the most photographed days of my life. Um, not because I wanted it to be, but, um, you know, it was a beautiful day. We were all out on Madison Avenue, um, on the upper east side, beautiful day. We all went inside this she-she salon and we were all having these makeovers, but we were completely isolated from the news. And so all this was, as all this was unfolding, you know, neither of us were, were home and neither of us were near a TV. And so you're getting bits and pieces of information and, um, anyway, we finally, you know, finally one of the, one of the, the producers of this, uh, magazine came over to, to me and said, you know, if you need to contact someone at the World Trade Center, I have, uh, I have a, a phone that's making connection or something. And I was like, why would I want to do that? What, what is the world, you know, what, it like, it, nothing was computing. And so finally, they did let us know there was a TV, I guess back in the back of this salon that somebody was watching and they eventually came out and said, look, both of, uh, or one of the, the trade, uh, towers had fallen and the other one just got hit. And at that point, this crazy idea that it was actually not an accident, but terrorism. It was, it was really unfathomable. But we weren't really thinking about terrorism, we were really thinking about what do I do next and how do I get my kids? And, uh, and so it was a scramble to go find your family, um, find your kids, get to a safe place, but not even knowing what a safe place meant on that day.

Mark Turman: [23:16] Yeah. Yeah, when you, when you've got that kind of thing going on, you're like, is anywhere safe? I would think. Um, but, uh, Keith, I love, I love just that organic idea, that spontaneous idea to go hand water out to people walking out of this disaster area.

Mark Turman: [23:32] Um, talk about, uh, some of the things that happened in terms of just support and recovery later on that day, the next, next four or five days. Um, how did, how did y'all's church figure out how to mobilize? How did the larger Christian community start to mobilize in these moments? What did that look like?

Keith Boyd: [23:54] Well, the, um, gosh, that's a really broad question. Uh, you know, I think, I think most, most of the pastors were, were trying to help people in their congregations to, uh, deal with, recover from, um, the aftermath. And there were a lot of churches that lost a lot of people. Uh, we didn't. We had people who worked in the, in the trade centers, but they all have these miraculous stories of, you know, I got into work early that day and decided at, at, you know, 8:45, I was going to take a coffee break and I went outside. You know, all these kinds of stories that, that they ended up leaving the center, the trade centers and so, um, anyway, we didn't end up losing anyone in our congregation. Um, which was really amazing. Yeah. But there were a lot of, there were a number of people in our church that were directly impacted by what happened that day. Um, and, and we had, uh, one of Hannah's classmates lost a mother that day. Wow. And so there was, um, I don't know, there, there was just a lot of counseling that went on, people coming in and just saying, you know, what, why did God allow this or, or how do I deal with this? And, and, you know, I at the time, you know, I'm still a young, you know, 41 year old guy, not having been doing this for very long and, and I'm going, I don't know. You know, you asked me that, I don't know. So we were all kind of just winging it.

Dee Ann Boyd: [26:08] I think too, you have to, I mean, to, to try to imagine, most of us know and understand grief on a personal level. But a communal grief is a totally different thing. Yeah. And that's what it was like for weeks. It wasn't just a few days. But for, for, for, for just weeks, you would walk down the street and people would be just sobbing. And for weeks, you would walk by a church and there was another funeral and another funeral and another, you know, it's just the black limousines in front of the church, you know, you're just like, oh my gosh, you know. Um, and for, so a communal grief like that is so different from an individual one. And so it was just, uh, it was, it was living in community with people who were hurting and every, the whole city was hurting. And the whole city, the whole city felt a great sense of loss. And some of them very personally, um, and then, and then some more, uh, more broadly, but, but still everyone was in, uh, everyone was shocked that terrorism could actually happen in the United States. It never happened in most of our lifetimes or in, in most of us, most of us weren't alive to ever be see war or anything like that. And so it was, uh, that that it happened at all and that it happened in our city was so shocking and, and to live a kind of communal grief with people is was, uh, was hard, but also a beautiful thing actually to do together.

Mark Turman: [27:55] Yeah, I, I think it's great to point that out because I, I can imagine that it was unique, uh, and, and communal in so many ways. And, and we could imagine, I guess, that, you know, if people have been in like a natural disaster, a flood or a tornado or a hurricane or something like that, might be similar, but in this case, unique and even more poignant because it was a such a gruesome act of violence. Yes. Um, and that, that shapes this moment and this day for all of y'all and for everyone that experienced it and even by some extension, I think to the whole country, but it just, uh, it puts a different frame on it, I guess I would say.

Mark Turman: [28:37] Um, Keith, when we were setting up this conversation, you talked about doing some chaplain ministry in the days and weeks that followed. Uh, you shared one story with me that I wondered if you would bring up again, which is, uh, the day that you were helping out in chaplain ministry and you saw the, the USS Comfort, uh, a military ship actually, uh, leave the port of Manhattan. Can you kind of describe that moment for us?

Keith Boyd: [29:04] Yeah, and if I can, if I can lead up to that. Sure. I, um, I served as a chaplain with the Red Cross at Ground Zero. And, um, had opportunity to, to walk around on the rubble. Um, and, and just, just be there for the, the relief worker, the, the, the guys who were trying to find people to rescue and, and digging through the rubble and, and, um, you know, it was, it, it was surreal actually, the, just the experience at Ground Zero, but there were several respite centers set up. And so my role as a chaplain was to, to be in the respite center so that when one of the workers would come in for a nap or for a meal or just taking a break, um, they would see somebody who they could talk to. And what I experienced in, I would say all of the conversations that I had was that 9/11 or, or this experience for them didn't bring, bring up anger. It, it brought up grief and, and, and brought to the surface personal things. And so they would, they would talk about their being estranged from their children or going through a divorce or, um, you know, thing, personal struggles that they were going through, this event brought up in their life. And, and I had opportunity to, to talk with or, or more than that, just listen to and then pray with all of these, these men who were doing this very hard job. And to, and to your, um, to your point, I was, I was having one of these conversations and the respite center I was working in that day was, was actually on a, on a boat in, in this little, um, you know, harbor area, not harbor, but, uh, cove where down at the financial center where they would park yachts and whatever. And so there was this boat that they had set up as a respite center and I was having this conversation with a gentleman and as we're talking and we're, we're very intent on each other in this conversation, but we're sitting next to a window and the, the noise in the respite center just dramatically began to decrease and we looked out the window and we saw the USS Comfort, which was the, the medical ship that had come to New York to take care of all of the wounded. Well, of course, there were no wounded. Um, and so after a few days, the ship was, was leaving. And as the ship was, was sailing down the Hudson into the harbor, there was a, a tug on the front and then two tugs at the back that were spraying red, white, and blue and all of the sailors were standing on the top deck, uh, saluting, standing at attention, saluting lower Manhattan as they sailed out into the harbor. And it was just this, uh, I get goosebumps talking about it now. It was just this, um, sign of respect. Um, I, I don't have another word for it. Uh, just, uh, somber respect for what had happened, um, at the trade centers. And it, it was, it was eerie because as, as the, the ship sailed on, the, the noise in the respite center then began to rise back up to the level that it was, but for, you know, several minutes, it was just silent.

Mark Turman: [33:40] Yeah, just a, a profound moment of what you were talking about, just shared communal grief that is really beyond words, right? There's just, there just are no words to talk about it. So, yeah, thanks for sharing that moment.

Mark Turman: [33:54] Uh, Dee Ann, you and I were talking a few weeks ago. You mentioned that New Yorkers particularly in your experience, they talk about, uh, this, this season of suffering and grieving together in 9/11 and the days afterward. You, you mentioned to me that New Yorkers tend to talk about it less and they talk about it differently. Can you kind of explain what you mean by that?

Dee Ann Boyd: [34:18] Yeah, well, it's interesting because, you know, as Keith and I traveled, um, uh, we had a sabbatical not long after 9/11 and, uh, we'd be in different countries or whatever. And, you know, people refer to 9/11 a lot and their own experience and, uh, would look back on it. But New Yorkers themselves, um, I find, uh, um, hold it very, uh, almost sacredly. And, um, people are, um, reluctant, I guess, uh, to talk about it in, uh, in open conversations because there's, there's often, uh, it's very likely that there's someone in the room or someone in the group who's had a terrible loss. Um, and so to speak of it in terms of, oh, well, I was on a photo shoot that day, seems so, uh, just disrespectful almost. Yeah. In light of the profound loss of so many people that day. And so, um, but because you never know who's in the room and because you never know what kind of connections people had to really terrible losses, life changing losses, um, that I, I just feel like, uh, there's a respect and a, and a, almost a sacredness to that day and those following days that New Yorkers have. So they, they don't speak about it casually. Um, and while we were there, and we lived there many years later, uh, uh, after, afterwards, um, it wasn't, it was never spoken about casually. But we found that if we traveled, if we traveled, people talked about it very casual, not casually as though it didn't matter, but, um, not with the same level of depth and respect. And maybe they just couldn't because if unless you had been there and felt and saw people covered in ash as you're handing out water or walking, running for your kids and seeing people look so just completely dazed and covered.

Keith Boyd: [36:41] And sharing cabs with strangers.

Dee Ann Boyd: [36:42] And sharing cab with, yeah, you know, I jumped in a cab with a bunch of strangers to go for with find my kids. I didn't care who was in that cab. I was going for my kids. But, you know, there's, there's just a level of respect, uh, for the loss that people had that people have for each other who were there. Um, so it's just not mentioned, it's just not talked about casually with among New Yorkers. I don't know how to explain it any better than that, but, but it was, it's always interesting to me as people outside of New York talk about it, um, often and refer to it often. Um, but with a more, with a, with a much more casual attitude, of course, than those who were there.

Mark Turman: [37:35] Yeah, it just, just reminds us in some way, I guess that our proximity to a situation, to a, um, to a tragedy, to a moment of grief, uh, whether it's at this scale or even at a smaller scale, um, that really affects how we understand it, how we, uh, cope with it, how we relate to it. And at least for me, listening to you talk about that, just as a reminder that we ought to, we ought to ask the Lord to help us to be sensitive and, and aware. And that's a part of the compassion that we can show. Um, that almost everybody you know, probably everybody you do know has walked through some kind of really hard time, maybe not on this level, but they've probably gone through something. And, um, to talk about any kind of pain in a flippant way, uh, can end up being, uh, impactful to somebody in a negative way. And so just to remember, uh, that all of us are broken and go through a lot of broken things and some people go through massively big things. And we ought to be as compassionate toward them as we learn their story, as we get to understand what they've experienced in life. Um, and, you know, having talked to other people that were in the city that day, the, uh, a couple of people in my church, uh, here in Texas were, um, in the city that day. Um, and they do have a different, uh, I don't, I don't know if aura is the right word, but they have a different sense about it. And I think again, your proximity to pain and to disaster, um, uh, are a part of that, which kind of leads me into my next thought, which is, you know, 9/11 is, um, in many ways similar to Pearl Harbor, um, in 1941. It is a Pearl Harbor-like moment for a generation of people. Um, is there anything that you wish Christians understood better about this day? Uh, obviously, maybe talking about it with a greater sense of, of humility and, uh, and respect might be a starting place. But is there anything else about this day and about this season of suffering that you wish Christians would maybe see or grasp a little bit deeper?

Keith Boyd: [39:59] Hmm.

Dee Ann Boyd: [40:02] It's a great question.

Keith Boyd: [40:03] You got another podcast, a whole hour we could…

Mark Turman: [40:08] Well, we can do a follow up episode for sure.

Dee Ann Boyd: [40:12] Well, one thing I will say is that, um, I, I watch the news very differently post 9/11. Um, because as I, as you see disasters, and like you said, whether it's a natural disaster or some kind of terrorist attack or whatever, I just watch the news differently because I think about communally what that, that must be like for that whole city or that whole region or that whole…

Keith Boyd: [40:46] The lives that are impacted.

Dee Ann Boyd: [40:47] The lives that get impacted. And so, you know, I think that, um, you know, the, the thing that was needed most, uh, immediately was, was compassion for folks. Um, it wasn't managing people's anger towards the terrorist attack. I think, you know, that was, that, that came later if it came at all, that came later. But, but I think that, um, um, someone gave us some wise advice a long time ago that if you're going to watch the news, pray through the news. So as you see things, pray through the news. And so now when I see, you know, uh, there was, and this happened recently through a, uh, an earthquake, but I saw a building, a whole apartment building collapse on TV. And, and whenever I see a building collapse, it kind of gives me that eerie feeling of back, uh, back to 9/11, but, but I also know that that means that there are hundreds of people who are going to be grieving. Yeah. And so it, it can to allow us to, uh, I, I, I hope that people can use, use a situation like 9/11 and look at it, uh, as a, as a way to grow their compassion when they see a, uh, something like that happen, whether it's a natural disaster or, or, uh, uh, an intentional one.

Mark Turman: [42:23] Yeah, because you just, you're confronted with a certain number of realities, right? Is that in case of 9/11, like that the world can be incredibly violent, um, and, and incredibly brutal. And one of the things I struggle with in these moments is just how random life can feel. Um, you know, even on 9/11, I remember talking to some of my friends in, in businesses here in Dallas who had connections to New York and I was calling them and saying, hey, what about your friend, your business partner in New York? And, um, and, you know, you had stories kind of like what you were talking about earlier, Keith, of, hey, I decided to go in late to work that day, so I wasn't there. I was on a ferry on the way to the trade center when this all started, you know, and just all these kinds of interesting and strange stories that just reminds us of how random life appears at times, uh, for us in that way.

Mark Turman: [43:19] Uh, Keith, I wanted to ask, uh, I can remember in the days after 9/11, uh, that, that people were trying to understand what motivated the terrorists. And we started learning about, uh, Osama bin Laden and we started learning about some of the sources of where this may come from. I can remember, um, you know, even our founder here at Denison Ministries wrote a book on radical Islam in the wake of 9/11. Um, and I had a, I remember inviting a subject matter expert to come and speak to my congregation here in the Dallas area about what do we need to understand about Islam and particularly about radical Islam. Did, did this in any way become that in New York City as a flashpoint between people, between Christians and Muslims and other religious groups? Uh, did that manifest itself in any significant way?

Keith Boyd: [44:17] Not that I was aware of. Hmm. No. I mean, I, um, yeah, I, I don't know that it, it greatly impacted the relationship between Christian and Muslims in the city. Um, I mean, there, there had been, there, there were cooperative efforts before and there continue to be cooperative efforts after. So I don't know, at least in my experience, there was much of an impact on that relationship.

Dee Ann Boyd: [45:00] I think there's a lot more prejudice. I think there was probably a lot more prejudice after that immediately after. Um, but, um, but yeah, I don't know about the, um, involvement with the churches so much as, as individuals had, uh…

Keith Boyd: [45:21] So I had, I had a relationship with and interaction with an imam, um, before 9/11 and that relationship and interaction continued after 9/11. Um, and it didn't change our relationship significantly one way or the other.

Mark Turman: [45:42] Well, that's, I think that's, that's good to hear because for some people it became something like a flashpoint, it seems like, um, in the, especially in the years afterward, um, where we've struggled so much, right, to understand people from different faiths and particularly from the Muslim faith and even today with conflicts in the Middle East that we struggle to understand or resolve. It just sometimes, uh, seems to come back.

Mark Turman: [46:10] Um, tell me a little bit about how you feel like, if any, that this may have affected your church that you were serving and leading. Did, did, what, what if anything changed significantly after 9/11?

Keith Boyd: [46:25] Well, D and I were talking about this this morning. Um, churches all over the city and probably all over the country swelled in number in the weeks and and months after. Um, but I would say by the, by the beginning, by January of, of, um, 2002, everything was kind of back to normal. And, and church sizes had not grown. Um, and people kind of went back to life. And, and I think the, the commentary on that for me and for us is that we, we didn't do a good job of, of communicating and demonstrating the fullness of life that Jesus offers because if we had, um, those numbers that, that we had swelled to, you know, in the, in the weeks and months after 9/11, um, they wouldn't have gone back down. Right. Um, but for whatever reason, we, um, I, I don't want to say missed an opportunity, but it was a missed opportunity. Um, not to, not to grow Trinity Baptist Church or Crosspoint Church, but to grow the kingdom. We, we missed an opportunity to, um, and I think that's an indictment on, on us as, as leaders in, in the faith that, that we didn't do what was necessary to, to show these people who were searching desperately in the aftermath, we didn't do what was needed to help them see that, that Jesus was their hope. Um, Jesus could be their source of life. Yeah. Um, and, and I, I will, I'll just speak for me. I won't say everybody missed that opportunity. I will say that, that I did, that we at Trinity did because, um, well, because people didn't stick around.

Mark Turman: [49:06] Right. Yeah, and you just have to wonder how that continues to work, work its way in their life, right? Even 25 years later.

Mark Turman: [49:16] So, uh, guys, this is a question or two more, but, uh, having talked to several different people who are approaching, um, this 25th anniversary in different ways. Um, how, uh, how are you guys going to mark this 25th anniversary, if at all? Um, and is there, is there something that you would hope that the rest of the country, particularly the Christians in the country, that they would pause in some significant way? Um, is that a hope that you have? Maybe, maybe Keith to your point just now, revisiting the, the opportunity that this moment represents for all of us, maybe to speak a word for Christ into somebody's life as we come through this anniversary. How's it going to be for y'all personally? Um, how might there be an opportunity for us to reclaim some of what we may have missed?

Keith Boyd: [50:16] You get to answer this one.

Mark Turman: [50:17] You get to answer this one.

Dee Ann Boyd: [50:18] Y'all rehearsed all this, didn't you?

Mark Turman: [50:21] Oh gosh.

Keith Boyd: [50:22] Okay, so I will just say that, um, 9/11 almost every year sneaks up on me. I don't, I don't see it as an anniversary. I don't see it as a birthday. I don't see it as a, it, it's almost, it's almost like, oh, it's 9/11. You know, it, it kind of, it sneaks up on me. And so if we weren't having this conversation right now, it would probably sneak up on me again. So it is not a, um, it is not a date that for whatever reason is, is firmly implanted in my psyche. Um, so I don't have a great answer to your question on that. I think, I think what you just said is a great reminder to me, oh, I need to be speaking a, the, a word of life into people in this season. Um, so I don't know, that's, that's my answer.

Dee Ann Boyd: [51:35] You know, I think that, um, because we were there, um, it, it gives us a unique opportunity to speak about it. Um, like now, but also, um, with our children, with our grandchildren, and, uh, and for those that we mentor and care for. And so, I just, um, you know, I always reach out to, uh, the women I was with that day and, uh, the fear that we had and, and how we divided up who was going to get whose kids and how we would try to find each other and all that kind of thing. Um, but just remembering that day, um, but, but also just reminding myself how much, uh, how much compassion is needed in life. Um, for others, uh, when, when, when things hit unexpectedly, and it can be in all kinds of ways, uh, not just in, in, in a national event like this, but, um, but, but to be prepared at all times to give people hope in the gospel.

Mark Turman: [52:44] Yeah. Well, that's a, that's a good word maybe for us to end on as we, as we finish this conversation. Number one, thank y'all for taking the moment to do what we hope we've been doing, which is to breathe a word of life and hope into this moment. Uh, obviously, we would hope to never be in another moment similar to this one, uh, if at all possible. And, and an awareness, uh, hopefully that, you know, there are other people, families that, um, are still missing somebody around their table. Um, and, um, and there's also a good number of people who were there to help, who struggle with health problems because of being there in that moment, being caught up in those efforts that now their willingness to sacrifice on that day and in the days afterward brought them health realities that stay with them. There's those kinds of things. Um, and so we want to, you know, never, not quite sure our country even really knows exactly what to do with this moment, but it seems like we ought to do something with it, which is kind of what prompted me to, to invite you into this conversation. But as we wrap up, just want to say thank you to you, thank you to our audience and, um, and that there is something sacred and solemn that we need to mark as we walk through this moment. And, um, Keith, would just ask you to do what we talked about earlier before we started, which is, would you offer a prayer, um, for what God would want us to, to see and hear and do in this moment as we walk through it together? Would you do that for us?

Keith Boyd: [54:18] Yes. All right. I would like to.

Mark Turman: [54:19] Let's pray together. All right.

Keith Boyd: [54:23] Jesus, we are grateful that your blood covers all of this. We are grateful that we have opportunity to, uh, speak to life even in the remembrance of, of devastating death. We are grateful, Lord, of the reminder that even, even in the midst of, of tragedy and, um, unspeakable violence that you are still, uh, Lord over it all. And that you have something in it for all of us. Lord, sometimes it's hard for us to, to figure out what that is. Um, sometimes we get angry with you because of it and we don't understand it. But at the end of the day, uh, your purposes will prevail. We know that without question. And so I pray, Lord, that as we walk through this, uh, season of remembering, Lord, that, that we would see it as an opportunity, as Mark said earlier, just to, to speak hope and life, uh, into people who may be struggling and to point them to you. Lord, open doors for us in our conversations, in, um, our interactions so that, so that when people are struggling with trusting you, that we can somehow speak life and hope into that. Lord, um, again, we say thanks for this time and for this conversation and for your grace over it all. Amen.

Dee Ann Boyd: [56:32] Amen.

Mark Turman: [56:33] Amen. Thank you, guys. Thank you for the prayer, Keith. And, um, I want to thank our audience and as you walk through your own reflections and remembrances of 9/11, we pray that the presence and peace of Christ will cover you in every way. We'll see you next time on Faith and Clarity. God bless you.