Loving God with your mind: a guide to Christian critical thinking

Mark Turman: [00:00:01] This is Faith and Clarity and I'm Mark Turman, your host. We're glad that you're with us. We want to equip you to discover God's clarity and hope in a world of chaos so that you can live with conviction, courage, and compassion. Today, we are thinking and talking about thinking. That is, how do we think well, sometimes called thinking critically. And uh joining me today are familiar guests, Dr. Jim Denison, our cultural apologist. Good morning, Jim. How are you?

Jim Denison: [00:00:29] I'm doing well, Mark. How are you today?

Mark Turman: [00:00:31] Doing great. Great to have you back with us. And the other Dr. Denison, Dr. Ryan Denison, author of The Focus and the Friday Daily Article. Ryan, how are you?

Ryan Denison: [00:00:40] Doing great. Thanks for the chance to be here.

Mark Turman: [00:00:43] You bet. Well, we're coming back into our uh fall season. Uh this will be one of our first new episodes as we come back uh after a summer break. And so we thought this would be a good topic for us to discuss. Uh we try to deal with stuff that's going on in the culture uh and to help you think about it and understand it from a biblical perspective and engage with it as salt and light, as Jesus would want us uh to do. Uh you may not yet have heard, but Denison Forum is in the midst of a growth campaign. Uh we have a number of names for it. Most of the time we call it a new kind of news. And we're going to be sharing more with you in coming months about uh where we think God is leading us as a ministry. But part of what we've been doing the last number of months is looking at our core doctrines and mission statement. And uh part of our mission statement at Denison Forum says this, we equip and disciple followers of Jesus Christ with biblical resources to empower them to think critically. Uh we get inspiration from scripture for our mission statement in a lot of places, uh places like Philippians chapter one verse nine where Paul offers his first prayer for the Philippian believers and he says, and it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more with knowledge and all discernment. That word discernment may be a really good biblical term that covers what we're talking about today when it comes to critical thinking. Uh Ryan, as we jump into this, uh I wonder if you could kind of set the stage and clarify for us that when we uh are trying to describe what thinking critically or critical thinking is, what are we not talking about?

Ryan Denison: [00:02:30] Thank you. And it is interesting that it's a concept that's often better understood in the negative than the positive in some ways. It's easier to recognize when you're not thinking critically at times than when you are. Um because I think part of that is just a key part of what we're not talking about when we think thinking critically, it doesn't mean always having the right answer right away. It doesn't mean jumping to conclusions. It doesn't mean looking at one side of the story and assuming you have all of it. And I think in a lot of ways, that's really the key part of what we try and to do at Denison Forum and the key part of what it means biblically, I think, uh when we think critically is this idea of take the time to pray, take the time to process and don't feel this urgency or need to come up with an answer just because the question presents itself. Sometimes the best answers are the ones that take time and we have to be willing to spend that time in order to come to them. And so I think in a lot of ways, one of the best ways to know you're not thinking critically is if you're answering quickly. And um outside of the times where the Holy Spirit just gives you the right answer to start, which he does sometimes because there's times where urgency is required, but more often than not, I think the Holy Spirit really enjoys the process of thinking about things as much as coming to the right conclusion at the end. And so being willing to take that time to think and pray through a topic before you come to any sort of confident conclusion about it is really important.

Mark Turman: [00:03:59] Yeah, kind of makes me think of what Jesus said, um that his followers when they were persecuted that they didn't need to worry about what they would say that uh the Holy Spirit would give them the right words in the right time, uh especially if it's an urgent situation, right? Um and then and then Ryan, is it is it also good to say that when we talk about critical thinking, we're not talking about being negative in your thinking or negative in your views when you're trying to work through an issue?

Ryan Denison: [00:04:27] Absolutely. Uh yeah, that word critical doesn't, it does often carry the concept of critiquing with it, but I think this is much more about critique, critical thinking well means critiquing your own thinking rather than other people's. I think is a good way to uh to start, a good place to start because if you can't identify your own preconceived notions, your own biases, the your own incorrect factors that might be influencing your thinking, then it's very difficult to allow the Holy Spirit to guide that process. And so a lot of it does come back to this idea of you can be critical about your own thoughts, but don't automatically start criticizing others and don't automatically start looking for the holes in someone else's argument. Um really begin by just prayerfully examining your own and prayerfully trying to figure out where you're starting from in this process of understanding a topic and understanding a subject and then allow the Holy Spirit to be the one that guides any sort of criticism that comes after that or any sense of critiquing that comes after that.

Mark Turman: [00:05:31] Right. Really, really helpful. Jim, I wanted to ask you to kind of help us with context as well. I've known you, it's hard to believe that I can say that I've known you about 40 years, but

Jim Denison: [00:05:40] We met in kindergarten, didn't we, Mark?

Mark Turman: [00:05:41] We did meet somewhere very, very early on. Yeah. Yeah. As we were playing with our pet dinosaurs. That's right. Um but uh I've heard you say and I've learned from you over 40 years many times this concept and idea that ideas change the world. Uh I've heard you say it recently. I've seen it uh sometimes from others. Sometimes uh referred to as the life of the mind. Um but I wonder if I could push back on that a little bit. Um I've also heard others uh even in recent days kind of disagree with that and say, you know, it's really more about our passions, our emotions. Some people would say, no, it's really great leaders that change the world or even random circumstances that just happen to converge at a particular moment in time. Um many people would say that love changes the world. Um can you kind of walk out this concept that ideas change the world uh and have a transforming effect and maybe even give us an example or two?

Jim Denison: [00:06:42] Yeah, thank you. Yes, it was uh John F. Kennedy who said, men may uh live and die over nations come and go, but ideas live forever. Uh what he's pointing to, I think is the uh fact that there are really three ways we know everything we know. There's the intuitive, there's the practical and there's the rational. You like people intuitively, you start your car practically, you do math rationally. You uh balance your checkbook, if you still have a checkbook rationally. Uh and it's important to know which of those is operative in the moment. Uh there's not necessarily a rational pathway by which to know whether that person ought to be a friend or not. There's not necessary uh rational understanding of your car in order to start it. But there's certain areas in your life for which the rational is absolutely critical. And when that is the case, then in those areas, ideas change the world. Ideas don't necessarily change your marriage as much as relationships do. They don't necessarily change the practical dimensions of your life, but they certainly change the ideology that moves nations forward over time. For instance, as we're having this conversation, the United States and Iran are still dealing with conflict and probably will be for the foreseeable future. That's just what's going on in the Middle East. Well, all that's driven in Iran by ideas, by the idea that they as Shiite clerics are here to hasten the coming of the Mahdi, their idea of a Messiah who will come at the end of history to dominate the world for Islam and hasn't done so because Iran and the Muslim world tolerates the existence of Israel. And so if they would ever strike against Israel, the Mahdi would come to protect them from retribution. Well, they also have this idea that lying to advance Islam is acceptable and even commendable. It's called the doctrine of Kitman within their own ideological structure. And so here we are trying to negotiate with them around ideas that are foundational to what they're doing, which are radically different from the ideas that motivate us in the West. Vladimir Putin has an idea about rebuilding Mother Russia as the meta narrative that he's that he's about. Xi Jinping has an idea about returning China to the supremacy in the world among the nations that he believes it should have. Geopolitics are absolutely driven by ideas. The politics of our culture are driven by ideas, whether it's democratic socialism on one side or maybe white supremacy on another side. And so, I think I really can make the argument that ideas in a formative way change our lives relative to the kind of world views that over time uh come to dominate our culture and dominate our geopolitics. They may not change us relationally in the moment, they may not change us practically in the moment, but they change the culture. And as has often been said, politics is downstream from culture. So understanding ideas in that sense is critical to understanding how the world works and how it will work in the future as we go forward.

Mark Turman: [00:09:34] Yeah, and that and that also reminds me of what our friend John Stone Street says about ideas. It doesn't it doesn't mean that ideas always make the world better if we're talking about changing or transforming the world. Uh Stone Street likes to say often that ideas change the world or I uh

Jim Denison: [00:09:51] Ideas have consequences. Ideas have consequences and bad ideas have victims. Yep.

Mark Turman: [00:09:55] So it doesn't necessarily mean that things are uh are getting better uh around ideas. Uh Jim, I wonder if you could walk out a term that you used several times just now, which is the term ideology. I was reading recently around uh some uh history regarding the American Revolution and the French Revolution uh and that the idea or the the concept of ideology actually emerged from the French Revolution. Um I don't know if that's accurate or not, but that's what this author was claiming. Can you kind of give us a framework for the definition of the word ideology?

Jim Denison: [00:10:34] Yeah, there are various ways of understanding it. There's no one definition that everybody agrees is the only definition that needs to be utilized, but typically the word's understood in the context of a worldview, in the context of a set of coherent ideas that explain the world and show us how to change it. And so there's an ideology that grows out of the French Revolution that goes back to enlightenment thinking uh that is itself somewhat unique. The secularist ideology that believes that their best future, their most their the greatest flourishing will come when we abolish everything except secular reasoning. That we're going to enthrone the mind as the God of the culture and we're going to dethrone everything else from the clerics and the church and the influence of the church to really anything that can't be defended on rational grounds alone. Well, that idea by itself can't be defended on rational grounds alone. To say there's no such thing as absolute truth is to make an absolute truth claim. To say that the mind is the key to life by itself isn't an idea that can be defended purely by the mind. But nonetheless, the French Revolution and the ideology that grows out of it in contrast to the American Revolution became very, very formative and still is in France to this day. Janet and I have some friends that we've known from back many years ago, pastoring in Midland, Texas, who have been missionaries in France for their entire careers. And they would tell you if they were on this podcast that that idea going back to the French Revolution is still dominant in the French culture, the secularism that is there, the antipathy toward religious ideas, religious morality that is there, the open door that is there relative to Muslim expansion in France, in Paris specifically. The the culture wars that are happening right now in France, in many ways go back to 1789 and to this ideology of secularism as uh as really the the motive that ought to be driving the culture forward. So that's just one example of an ideology. I mentioned Putin's ideology, Xi Jinping's ideology. Uh every culture has a meta narrative as George Friedman said, and we all individually have these as well. We have this worldview that explains the world and helps us understand our place in it and how we can influence it going forward.

Mark Turman: [00:12:44] Yeah, or at least explains the world to us at this moment. To us, right. Exactly. Yeah. And that is to say that every person's worldview ideology is is always somewhat fluid, right? Um always changing. Um uh Jim, I just wonder uh as we think about this, this really kind of goes to the founding of Denison Forum some 17 years ago, uh because I know that um you are so dedicated to this, but why do you think Christians need to learn this skill or why do they need to think about thinking better?

Jim Denison: [00:13:18] Well, first of all, because we're commanded to do so. We're commanded to love God with all our mind, with our heart, soul, mind, and strength. We're told in Philippians two that we can have actually the mind of Christ, that Jesus lives in us by the power of the Holy Spirit. So we can continue the intellectual ministry of Jesus today. That's why I'm so grateful for godly Christians who are world class scientists and engineers and philosophers and and medical technicians and researchers because they're continuing the intellectual ministry of Jesus in the world today. We're warned in Romans 8 that to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the spirit is life and peace. And so scripture itself commends us and commands us to think well. Philippians two speaks of uh of thinking about what's excellent, thinking about these things. And in that way having the mind of Christ. So first of all, there's a biblical command to do so. Second, there's a pragmatic and practical reason to do so. The Bible says in 1 Corinthians two that the natural man doesn't understand the things of God because they're spiritually discerned. And then 2 Corinthians 4 warns us that the God of this age has deceived the minds of men, lest they understand the truth and the glory of Jesus. And so if we're going to impact the culture for Christ, we're going to have to do so intellectually as well as practically and relationally. It's vital that Christians be engaged in halls of intellectual power, that Christians use our influence in ways that manifest the presence of Jesus in the larger culture. Culture changes top down. I really think James Davison Hunter demonstrated that conclusively. And so when we use our minds well to the glory of God, we position ourselves to be used by the Holy Spirit to advance the awakening our culture needs so desperately. So we're commanded by scripture to do this, but we're also compelled by the circumstances of our secularized culture to use our minds to glorify God.

Mark Turman: [00:15:07] So, uh I just wonder, sometimes I I think about the sequence in which uh Jesus and others in the Bible said things. Um so is there any significance do you think, Jim, when Jesus says, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength? Is there any significance to that sequence? Uh and the reason I I bring this up is kind of strikes me when I read the Lord's Prayer as well, um when Jesus talks about forgiveness, it's like the third or fourth thing in the list of the prayer. Um which is significant, but do you uh put any significant weight when Jesus says that love the Lord your God with all your mind is listed third?

Jim Denison: [00:15:47] It is, isn't it? No, there's something really behind that that goes to a worldview itself. If we're going to come at that from a Greek worldview, then yes, because the Greek tripartite man that goes back to Plato and Aristotle would say that there's body, soul, and spirit. And so you could then bring that impact that or kind of import that to Matthew 22. And so heart, soul, mind, strength. So heart would mean to trust God with my heart, maybe that's salvation. And soul might have to do with spiritual life. So now I'm supposed to love God as I pray and read scripture and worship, loving him with my mind would be to think biblically and then loving him with my strength would be to act redemptively. And we could do that in sort of a sequential kind of uh of a of a Greek sort of orientation. In the Hebrew orientation, I by contrast, I think they see the the human as much more holistic than that, as much more unified than that. And I think they might say heart, soul, mind and strength are just different aspects of the same person, different ways of understanding the same individual. Love God with your feelings as it were, love God with your thoughts, love God with the intuitive dimension of your life, love God with your practical life. But there's not really a sequentialness so that A leads to B, which leads to C, which leads to D. So I can't love God with my strength unless I first of all make sure I'm loving him with my heart, soul and mind. And I can't first love him with my soul unless I first love him with my mind. I don't know that there's a prescription there that the Greek Aristotelian sort of uh exegite might might find. I think it's more different descriptions of the same person, aspects of the same individual. I am both a father and a husband. I'm a father and a grandfather, very proud to be a grandfather. Uh I am a cultural expositor as you and I are having this conversation, but I'm all of that in one person. Those aren't separate parts of me. That's those are various dimensions of the one person. And I I think that's probably the better way from a Jewish anthropological point of view to understand that uh that command of scripture, various ways of demonstrating the one person as the application is necessary.

Mark Turman: [00:17:47] Yeah, that's helpful. Ryan, you had a thought?

Ryan Denison: [00:17:49] Yeah, and I I think along those same lines, I I also feel like it reinforces the idea that you can't love God well unless you're loving God with all of those things. And you can't over you can't compensate for not thinking critically by simply thinking loving more powerfully or um you can't the heart can't compensate for the mind. And so I I think often times in our culture, there is this belief of if you just believe something strongly enough, then it must be true. And while your feelings can reflect the truth, the truth doesn't have to reflect your feelings. And I think that's kind of where critical thinking is so important in our culture today especially is that there is this belief that if you just believe something strongly enough, then that's okay. It doesn't matter if it's right or not. Uh maybe we're not supposed to judge whether it's right or not. It's kind of the way the culture approaches it. But often times, I think what Jesus is saying in that passage and what the entirety of scripture points to is that God expects us to love him with our minds and wants us to as well. It's not just enough to love him with our strength and live out our faith with intent if we're not also thinking about that faith. It's not enough to love others with our hearts and to love God with our hearts or with our souls if we're not also willing to spend time loving God with our minds also. And so I I really one of the things that I love about that passage in scripture is how it reinforces that not only does loving God well mean using all of those, it also reinforces that even if some come more naturally to us than others, that doesn't mean we get to ignore any of them. And it doesn't mean we can compensate for a deficiency in one area by overemphasizing another. And I think that works for thinking as well. You can't just because if critical thinking comes more naturally to you or if that's the way that you enjoy loving God best, it doesn't you can't just spend all your time thinking about God and then ignore the chance to serve God by loving others or by loving God with your heart. God wants more than your mind as well. And so all of those things, I think go play need to play equal roles in what it means to love the Lord, which is important to understand when some of them are going to come more naturally to us than others.

Mark Turman: [00:19:58] Yeah, it's a great great insight. It also uh it also just makes me think that uh it's helpful for us to realize that we we tell me Jim and and both you and Ryan both if if this is something that makes sense, that Jim just by what you described, it would be helpful for us to recognize that we think usually in more Greek type ways than Jewish type ways. Um because even as you were describing that, I was like, almost my whole Christian life, I'm like, we've tried to turn anything we can into a formula for success. And so we like to think as Americans in very practical terms from A to B, B to C, C to D and we're like, okay, well we just uh Jesus said it in that way, so we just need to figure out how that formula works and turn it into a recipe for spiritual maturity and for spiritual practice. And if we if we just think about it in that kind of logical, practical, sequential way, uh we think we will have a solution rather than thinking about it more in a Jewish holistic kind of mindset. And just understanding that about the way we think can be helpful. Does that make sense to y'all?

Jim Denison: [00:21:14] Yeah, it absolutely does. When we're thinking about what critical thinking is, essentially and there I think there are maybe some stages to it just a bit. The first question we ask is, okay, what do those words say and what do they mean by what they say? And second, we want to come along and ask, well, is that true? And then third, we want to ask, is that relevant? And if so, how? And so by thinking in those ways, which is a Jewish thing as well as a Greek way of looking at this, we can then come forward and ask those questions about the worldview that's at the heart of scripture. Okay, so the New Testament is written in Greek, I grant that, but it's written in a Jewish context. Its authors, except for Luke, were all Jews. Uh it's written in the context of Judaism and the worldview of Judaism. And Judaism is intensely pragmatic and practical to this day. Doesn't mean that it's irrational or non-rational. Some of the most brilliant people on earth are Jews. Jews are only 2% of our population, but 37% of our Nobel laureates. Wouldn't for a moment say that Jewish people are anything other than brilliant just in a collective sense. And they can be deeply intuitive. Having been to Israel so many times over the years, I can tell you that there's a great feeling that emerges just in the conversations of the Jewish people that can be a bit offputting. Uh when you're hearing your uh your guide and your your bus driver at the front of the bus what sounds like yelling at each other in Hebrew and they're just talking about the weather. They're just being intuitive and being expressive, just the way that their culture works. And so I'm not at all saying that, but there is nonetheless a pragmatic worldview that's at the heart of Judaism and we find that in scripture. The Bible doesn't tell us everything we want to know, it just tells us what we need to know. People would love to know where dinosaurs are in the Bible, but what good would that do you if you knew that? People would love to be able to age the earth according to biblical terms, but how would that change your life today? We don't have Paul's letter to the Laodiceans that he refers to in Colossians, even though I'd love to find it and know what Paul was saying there. It clearly wasn't relevant to us as it was to them or it would be in scripture today. And so if we can come at scripture from its own worldview and understand that the Bible never means what it never meant, understand what the author intends to say and apply that intended meaning, now we're thinking critically and biblically. Now we're doing justice to scripture and any other literature for that matter. And now we're positioning ourselves to understand the life changing truth of God's word as used by the Holy Spirit.

Mark Turman: [00:23:32] Yeah, that's so good. All right, well, I think we're off to a good start thinking about thinking. And so we're going to take a quick break and let everybody catch their breath and we'll be right back.

Mark Turman: [00:25:02] All right, we're back uh talking about and thinking about thinking well or critical thinking. Uh Ryan, we use a lot of different things around Denison Forum to kind of remind us of what we're trying to do to equip and disciple people. Uh some of the things we say about all of our resources, podcasts, articles, newsletters, everything we do, we say that we want them to be biblical, we want them to be relevant or timely to what's going on in the world today. We want them to be accessible, which is why we put things out digitally and we fortunately are able to make them available free because of the donors that support us. Um so let's go back to the beginning of that. We want everything that we do, including this podcast to be something that is biblically grounded. Uh do you think we can say that critical thinking is the same thing as thinking biblically or are they distinct in some ways?

Ryan Denison: [00:25:59] I think there are distinctions, but especially in the context of Christianity, understanding that thinking critically must start by thinking biblically is extremely important. Um before the break, uh my dad was talking about just some of the disconnect between the way the Bible uh that questions the Bible attempts to address and the questions we would like to ask. And if you look back across Christian history, the vast majority of the heresies that people have struggled with come from that gap. And I think as we think as we try and figure out how to apply the truth of scripture to our culture today and to the questions that we have that come up in it, the questions about how can about the relevancy of Christianity to so many of the issues we face, a lot of it goes back to that idea of if we need to start with what the Bible says and work from there prayerfully with the Holy Spirit's help, uh looking through and thinking about these issues. But if we if we don't start with scripture, then we're far more likely to stray into those heresies. If we start with kind of another way to think about it is if we start with the with the answer we would like to get to and then try and go back to the Bible to figure out how to walk that path or how to arrive at that conclusion, then that's not critical thinking and that's not biblical thinking. Uh so thinking critically needs to start with thinking biblically, even if eventually it will have to move on the application side perhaps beyond uh what the Bible directly says. But I do think there's there will always be principles in scripture that should inform our our ideas, should inform our conclusions and it's where we have to start.

Mark Turman: [00:27:36] Okay. Yeah, it's a good good explanation. Jim, let's build on that a little bit. Um Jesus is obviously the ultimate source and example of all things. Um can you help us uh think about and understand where did Jesus teach? Did he model critical thinking? Uh did he as you said, he commanded us to love God with all of our mind, but um where else did he perhaps illustrate what he was talking about when it comes to thinking well?

Jim Denison: [00:28:08] Well, all across his teaching ministry, you would see Jesus applying critical thinking at every point, thinking in ways that are logical, reasonable, rational, in ways that become very persuasive on a practical and an intuitive level as well. But a couple of examples that come to mind very quickly. First of all, in Matthew 6, Jesus says, no man can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, be devoted to the first and despise the second. You cannot serve God and money. Well, that's a logical statement. No man can serve two masters. By definition, if something or someone is your master, then that means logically that it has supremacy in your life. You can't have two masters by definition. That's just a fact. That's just a logical statement that no man can can serve two masters. You can't have two kings of the same realm, can't have two kings on the same throne, can't have two people driving the same car. You can't have by definition two masters in your life. And what he what he applies out of that follows rationally and logically. Either he will hate the one and love the other, be devoted to the first and despise the second. If you're trying to have two masters, they will be in competition with each other because each wants to be your master. So each will be competing with the other and one has to win and the other has to lose. Then he applies that in a very practical way. You therefore cannot serve both God and money. If money is your master, God is not. If God is your master, money is not. It can't be both. Aristotle would be pleased by that. We think of Aristotle as the first person to coin the laws of logic. And one of them is the law of non-contradiction or the law of contradiction, sometimes it's said, where A can't be B and not be at the same time. Money and God cannot be both master at the same time by definition. So that's logical thinking, that's critical thinking, applied to a critical dimension of our lives in a way that's very practical and still lives obviously as relevant to our lives today.

Mark Turman: [00:30:04] All right, let me let me see if we can uh play one of your favorite games for a moment, um called stump the chump that you talk about sometimes. Hey, you're the one that told me about it, so we're just going to run with it. It wasn't my idea, but nonetheless, you know. So let's take let's take some of the practice uh practical aspects of critical thinking to where Jesus was challenged. Um there's a story where um the Sadducees come to Jesus and say, hey, there was this woman who got married and early on her husband died and according to Jewish custom and and practice, uh she married a brother of the man that she was married to and uh tried to carry on the family name and that then happens over seven times and the story ends with the challenge of, okay, so finally the woman died, who is she going to be with in eternity? Uh how does Jesus apply critical thinking in that context?

Jim Denison: [00:31:06] He exposes the illogic of the question. The very fallacy of the question. That question's built on the fallacious statement that we are married in heaven. That we have husbands and wives in heaven on the same level to the same degree that we do on earth. Well, if that's true, then anybody who has married more than once is going to have that question. Uh Mark, you and I as pastors, I'm sure you have had, I know I have had over the years people wondering that. Their spouse died and they remarried and now they're wondering in heaven who will I be married to? Well, you can't ask a bad question and get a good answer. It's like asking how much does seven weigh or what is the color of three or can God make two mountains without a valley in the middle? Their whole question, which was really designed to trip Jesus up and because the Sadducees didn't believe in resurrection, were were trying to prove that they were logical and he was not by affirming resurrection. So they raised this whole hypothetical sort of uh construct around a fallacious assumption, which is that there is heaven, there is marriage in heaven. And Jesus exposes that. He says, well, here's what's wrong. There's neither marriage nor giving in marriage in heaven. And so your very premise is wrong. The very question you're asking is built on a faulty foundation. And in that sense, uses critical thinking against them. They think they're bringing critical thinking to expose the fallacy of the resurrection. He shows through critical thinking that their question itself is fallacious at the foundation.

Mark Turman: [00:32:29] Okay, let's let's jump in right there uh because you mentioned it several times, which is the the reality of assumptions. Um how does uh how does surfacing out our own or perhaps the assumptions of others, how important is that in the practice of critical thinking?

Jim Denison: [00:32:50] Yeah, it's really where it all starts, isn't it? Both pointed at ourselves as well as pointed at the people that we're trying to engage with.

Jim Denison: [00:32:56] I don't have to do that for myself because all my assumptions are perfect. I assume accurately. That's right. Exactly. You know, that's right. Exactly. Uh but having said that, Rudolf Bultmann said there's no such thing as a presuppositionless hermeneutic, which is just kind of a scholarly way of saying all of our interpretive ideas are built on assumptions. There are axioms as we call them in math, that two plus two always equals four and parallel lines never intersect. Can't prove that, but you prove everything else on the basis of that presumption, that assumption. Life is built on assumptions. But what we then want to come along and do as best we can is test those assumptions. And when we test the assumption, we often times find where the unbiblical or non-biblical thinking goes awry at its very beginning. And that's what Jesus does here. Uh there was I think a conversation that Francis Schaeffer had once with the the well-known apologist who asked him, if you had an hour with a person on a train to lead them to to faith in Christ, how would you spend that hour? He said he would spend the first 45 minutes doing what we call the apagogic test, which is showing them what's wrong with their assumptions, what's wrong with their worldview. And he said if he could do that, it would only take the last 15 minutes to show them what's right with the Christian worldview. And so I'm working with you, I'm thinking with you and I'm asking myself as the Holy Spirit's leading me, all right, what are your assumptions here? Is it your assumption that there is no God or that you can't would be an atheism or you can't know that there's a God, which is agnosticism or are you coming at this worldview from a Buddhist or who knows what your worldview is? Once I know that, I can then speak to the assumptions inside that worldview and expose what's unbiblical, show you the need for biblical thinking and then perhaps proceed in that direction. And so getting to the assumption at the heart of the conversation is and again by the power of the spirit is critical to helping that individual think biblically and live redemptively.

Mark Turman: [00:34:46] Yeah, I wonder if even a good practice for somebody who really wants to to do this well is to ask themselves what assumptions are they holding on to? Yes. Uh and where did they get them? Um and it might be uh for many listening to this podcast that they came out of a Christian home and they came out of a home that was oriented to scripture and that's where many of their assumptions about life and about God and about, but many of us believe things that are not true and are not real and we don't even know that we're believing things that are not true and real. Um and that and so just the practice of sitting down and saying, what things do I assume to be true that may or may not be that I need to try to to vet out.

Jim Denison: [00:35:31] What do I think and why do I think it?

Mark Turman: [00:35:32] Yeah, why do I think it? Yeah. Uh Ryan, I also wanted to just spend another moment on this story, which is um the significance that when when Jesus is challenged this way about this woman who had seven husbands and about what their life would be like in eternity, what is the significance of the people that were challenging him, the Sadducees group and how does that play into critical thinking in this moment?

Ryan Denison: [00:35:57] Yeah, one of the things that really kind of set the Sadducees apart from a lot of the other religious leaders. I mean, all of them were confident that their beliefs were correct. The Sadducees even more than most though, uh often seemed to go about their lives and their approach to God with a level of arrogance that led them into error often and frequently. Um whether it was a disbelief in resurrection, the way that they approached Roman government, and I think we see that play out with uh with Jesus too, where they approach him and you often you almost get the sense that this was a question they had asked to others who believed in resurrection and it had stumped them, so of course it would work on Jesus too. And I think what's interesting is by the end of this, you get, I think is where the passage comes where uh the gospel writers say that no one no one was had the courage essentially to ask Jesus any more questions after this. And just because Jesus kind of puts them in their place and he does so by simply pointing out the flaws in their own argument and the flaws in uh that would have been apparent if they were willing to accept the idea that they could have been wrong. Or if they'd just approached it with an honest question instead of a gotcha question. And uh I think especially as we look to apply this to our culture today and helping people know Jesus better, it's so important when we try and share the gospel that we don't start with gotcha questions. Um you mentioned kind of that uh Francis Schaeffer model of the 45 minutes just asking questions and um kind of deconstructing someone's false arguments before you try and reconstruct a biblical argument. Well, in that deconstruction, it's so important that we don't ask questions for the purpose of making someone feel foolish or we don't ask questions for the purpose of making them feel like they're wrong. We want the ideally, we just ask questions that point to the flaws in their thinking, but in a way that allows them to come to that conclusion because people get defensive. It's human nature to get defensive. And if we're asking critical questions for the purpose of being critical, rather than the purpose of helping them think critically, then I don't think then it's going to be counterproductive in the long run because all we're going to do is make them defensive. And that's what Jesus did so well is when he asked questions of people, often times it was, I mean, there were times where he just got frustrated and just essentially asked questions in a way to let people know they were just wrong. But more often than not, the questions he asked were for the purpose of helping people examine their own beliefs and their own ideas and come away with a better understanding as a result. Um but that happened because the questions that Jesus asked were for the purpose of helping people understand and think critically, not for the purpose of being critical. And I think that's a very important line that that we need to be careful not to cross and one that the Sadducees especially in this passage learned the hard way that that doesn't end well.

Mark Turman: [00:38:44] Yeah, and just a great a great reminder that Jesus was always about uh caring about the person more than winning the argument or making somebody look foolish. Um we know from other places in scripture that the Pharisees and the Sadducees were both so intimidated by Jesus and so threatened by him that they kept looking for ways to to discredit him and to make him look foolish and to embarrass him. And I and I also think it's this story, uh it's about the only one I know of in scripture where Jesus just looks at a group and says, you're just flat wrong. You're just you are just wrong-headed about this. Um and and sometimes he and but I think he did that very much with love and with compassion for them because he wanted them to get to a place where they were thinking well.

Ryan Denison: [00:39:35] Well, along those same lines, just real quick, I I would add to that. I do think there's that's the Holy Spirit's role in all of this because the Holy Spirit knows people's hearts and minds. Sometimes what people need is a proverbial slap upside the head. Um but I think God's the only one that can know when that's appropriate. And our default should be to be as loving as we can, to be as kind as possible and to ask questions with the other person's uh best interest and and heart. And sometimes there will be times where their best interest is a swift slap upside the head uh to help them understand like, look, you're just wrong on this because sometimes that's what people need to hear. But I think God's the only one that really gets to let us know when that is and the only one that really gets to say like, okay, they're ready, they this is what they need. Our our default needs to always remain to be as kind as we can and as loving as we can.

Mark Turman: [00:40:27] Yeah, which is uh my way of saying that would be remember you've got a lot more tools in your toolbox and that you don't have to only think of yourself as a hammer. Yeah. Very true.

Mark Turman: [00:40:38] Jim, I want to come back. Um you suggested to me several months ago some of the writings of the historian Joseph Ellis and so I've been reading a number of those books. Um was reading some of his research on John Adams just a couple of days ago and how John Adams was a tremendously uh powerful thinker back in the revolutionary time. Uh he talked about how Adams uh when he read a book, he often fought with the book uh and was known to put opposing arguments in the margins of what he was reading, uh that he really contended with books rather than just reading them. Um we've already alluded to a few of these principles like looking for assumptions in your own thinking as well as in others, uh coming at this with a desire to help people understand rather than to embarrass or win an argument. Are there some other specific tools or steps, even questions that believers need to embrace when it comes to evaluating their own thinking as well as the thinking of others?

Jim Denison: [00:41:43] Well, that's a terrific question. By way of just some general principles, and we've already said some of this, but I'll just say it again. We need to measure everything, every thought that we have by the truth of scripture. Uh God's word doesn't change and it is his expression of his mind to us as best we're able to understand that. And so that's a stack pole. That's the north on the compass. That's the means by which to measure whether or not what we believe to be true. Remember those three questions I mentioned before, what does this say and mean by what it says? Is it true? And if it is, to what degree is it relevant in my life today? How is it relevant in my life today? We're going to measure that truth by the truth of God's word, by the intended meaning, the authorial intention of scripture itself and measure everything we do by biblical truth. That's why thinking biblically is so critical to thinking critically as Ryan said earlier. And then I think on a second level, we can come along and measure our thinking by that of others. One of the reasons Adams was such a brilliant intellect is because he was so well read, because he was himself so fascinated by so much of the literature of their day. Thomas Jefferson, the same, John Quincy Adams, perhaps the most brilliant president in American history, conversant in seven languages, just remarkable individuals, but they were so interested in the thoughts of others. In the British enlightenment, for instance, uh John Locke's thinking was especially critical to the founders. A lot of the language of the Declaration of Independence is found in the writings of John Locke and other enlightenment thinkers. And so let's measure our thinking by what scripture says and then by what excellent thinkers think. Uh G. K. Chesterton said it's one of the heresies of our day to believe that the only people that matter are the ones that happen to be walking around right now. That uh we tend to be like Mark Noll said, the uh who talked about the loss of an evangelical mind, we tend to be the cut flower generation that thinks that uh we can cut ourselves off from our cultural roots and flourish when the opposite is the case. History didn't start when we showed up. And so to measure our thinking by that of others is vital. And along with that, a third would be to say, let's learn to find truth wherever God leads us to find that, even if it's not in places we would have thought to look. Marcus Aurelius said the quality of a man's life depends on the quality of his thoughts. Well, Marcus Aurelius was a stoic. He was himself a Roman emperor, in some ways responsible for the death of Justin the Martyr. He was not someone you would hold up as an example of pietistic um spiritual maturity. And yet he was a brilliant thinker in ways that can inform our thinking. Thomas Aquinas reformulated in many ways Christian theology around Aristotelian thinking in ways that are still relevant and valid today. And so let's ask where can we, if all truth is God's truth, where can we learn from the thinking of others and especially get out of our own sandbox? Get out of our own mindset of the places that we're comfortable being and working. I try to read every day from the from the uh Anglican Book of Common Prayer, even though I'm not an Anglican myself. I tried to read a great deal of the desert fathers. Henry Nouwen has been very influential in my life, even though he and I as a Catholic theologian don't have some presuppositions we don't share in common. And so, what does the Bible say? What have brilliant minds thought? And what can I learn from the thinking of others that are outside my own context? Those are some of the ways God can continue to inform and use our minds today, I think.

Mark Turman: [00:44:57] Yeah, and I I love that idea of just starting with scripture um and just uh letting that be the most authoritative voice in your heart and in your mind day by day. Um we have time for a couple of more questions. So Ryan, I just wanted to ask. I saw this quote recently in a news article that we ought to think for ourselves but not by ourselves. Um can you give us a little bit of input on uh the practice of critical thinking? Your dad just talked about, you know, reading the thoughts of other people, um but also being in the presence of others. I'm thinking of like church small groups, Sunday school classes, uh but also thinking about how uh we're challenged um to practice uh critical thinking and biblical thinking well, but we sometimes run into the challenge of what some people would call group think, which is uh the desire to be accepted by the group rather than to pursue clarity and truth on its own. Um can you kind of put those two things together? How how can we best think for ourselves but not by ourselves?

Ryan Denison: [00:46:11] Yeah, and I think uh that's a very important question and a key distinction to make there because we do want to avoid group think. Um but I think group think is often takes place where there's still only one person doing the thinking. They're just doing it on behalf of a group. And so if a church small group is doing its job well, um whether that's in a Sunday school class, whether that's just even outside the church, uh meeting with other believers that you respect. I mean, one of the key principles of that establishes that's established in the New Testament is this idea, the priesthood of every believer and the idea that all of us have the Holy Spirit in our lives if we have trusted Christ as our savior. And so the Holy Spirit can speak through all of us and to other people's lives. And so what that means is that when we sit down and we talk with other believers, then we're not just hearing from them, we're hearing from God as well. Um that doesn't mean they're always correct, which is why it's not thinking a key component of thinking critically is not just taking everyone at their word and assuming that they're correct. But we should always approach a conversation, especially with other believers as if there is something God might want to speak, might want to say through them that is of value and that I need to hear. There's a perspective they have, a history they have, a set of experiences that they're bringing to this that can approach this topic from a different light than I have on my own. And so, I mean, one of my favorite things to do in church is teach Sunday school. And one of the reasons why is that I get to just kind of mediate conversations. And the amount of times where the best things that were said in that class were thoughts that I'd never even had before setting that room are it's humbling and it is so exciting as well. And so I I really, I think one of the things that small groups, especially among Christians can can do if they're done well is to facilitate those kinds of conversations and those kinds of experiences where we get the chance and we need to view it as an opportunity rather than an obligation or something we just have to do. Uh we need to approach them from the perspective of my job in this class is not to just sit around and wait until for the moment I get to speak. It's we need to be active listeners as well and really pray and ask the Holy Spirit to speak to us through other people. And when we do that and ask the Holy Spirit to help us evaluate their arguments, evaluate what they say against the truth of scripture, then all of us benefit from it and we're essentially sharing in the wealth of knowledge that the that God wants to impart. And there's ways that that happens with other believers that just can't happen by ourselves. And we we need to be careful of group think, but we also need to view those as opportunities to take advantage of. And that's especially the case if like I'm on the more introverted side of that spectrum and so being part of big groups is not exactly something I get excited about in principle. And so it really is kind of one of the things that God has done to help reinforce the importance of those groups and the value of those groups is the chance to learn and to engage with ideas that I wouldn't otherwise. And so that's that's why I look forward to every Sunday morning. It's almost as much or more than the sermons. I look forward to which I mean, if my pastor's listening to this, he does a great job. It's not a knock on him. But uh there is just something special about sitting around and engaging with ideas rather than just hearing ideas that is really important.

Mark Turman: [00:49:30] Yeah, so we need to shout out. Pastor Chris does preach a good sermon. Um so we want to make sure we shout out that for sure. Yeah. But you know, it's just it it would really change our perspective in a big way if we approached any conversation realizing that you know what, God's spirit does live in us and Jim, this is kind of setting up where we want to land this conversation today, but the Holy Spirit is in us and might want to say something through us to the person that we're with or the persons that we're with. And by the same token, the Holy Spirit is in many of them, um if they are following after Christ and he may want to say something very directly to us through them. Um and that that reminds us that we're never just with people. Um which is Jim, where I really wanted to land this conversation. You referenced a couple of these verses already. Romans 8:6, Now the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the spirit is life and peace. Uh in 2 Corinthians 10, it says, we destroy the arguments and lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God and take every thought captive to Christ. Uh I'm going to want you to speak to that for a moment. Uh and then the other one that you referenced, Philippians 4:8, Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, commendable, if anything is excellent, worthy of praise, think about these things. Um I think this may be the second hardest question in my own journey of faith. The first is, how do I know when I'm hearing the voice of God and not just my own voice or someone else's? But here's the next challenging thing. How do we practice a form of healthy, holy, biblical mind control so that we have the we learn the skill of taking our thoughts and aligning them with the Holy Spirit? How can you help us with that?

Jim Denison: [00:51:26] Well, first of all, I'd like to know the answer to that too. This is an ongoing lifestyle conversation, isn't it? Yeah. But I at least know some places that we need to begin. The first is to begin every day by submitting that day to the Holy Spirit. That's Ephesians 5:18, to be filled with the spirit, to be controlled by the spirit. Uh Ronald Reagan, I've told the story a lot, uh was commenting on the Air Force One uh pilot's desire to land as close to the beginning of the runway as he could and the pilot said, well, they teach you in flight school, you can't use the runway that's behind you. And so I need to give the day to God as it begins. I need to get up a great while before day as as uh as Mark 1:35 says of Jesus and start the day by getting alone with him and surrendering my mind, surrendering my life to him, asking the Holy Spirit to take control of my mind and my thoughts and fill me with himself all through this day. And then as I walk through the day, I need to practice his presence. What that means in practical terms is that I'm praying as I'm speaking. I'm praying right now as you and I are having this conversation. I'm asking God to give me thoughts and insights and I've heard myself say things I didn't plan to say and and I've heard things from y'all that I'd never thought about before that have been terrific. And so all through the day, you can have an ongoing conversation with the Holy Spirit who lives in you as the temple of the spirit, even as you're walking through your day. It's it's thinking after him, it's thinking with him, it's staying submitted to him, it's staying connected. It's keeping the plug in the socket. It's staying staying yielded to him and through him and being related to him through the day. On a third level is discrete times set aside for no purpose except to hear his voice in our lives. That's when we're studying scripture and we're worshiping and we're especially being quiet. Mother Teresa said at the beginning of her vocational life, she spent 90% of her prayer time talking to God. At the end of her life, she spent 90% of her prayer time listening to God. Taking time just to be still and know that he is God. Taking a journal perhaps, go sit in some beautiful place in nature and just ask God to speak to you. Write down what comes to your thoughts. Just be open to the spirit who speaks. Francis Schaeffer said he is there and he is not silent. Think of all these times through scripture where it says, and the Lord said this, and the Lord said that. And we think, well, God's never spoken to me like that. Well, maybe not as audibly as that, but as as uh as practically as that, because his spirit now lives in us. He doesn't have to speak to us audibly from outside because he can speak to us intuitively from inside if we'll stay yielded and submitted to him. So discrete times just to listen for his voice and practice the discipline of solitude and silence and let him speak to us in that way and and stay connected in that way. And then as we do that, our aspiration is what you referenced a moment ago, 2 Corinthians 10:5, to take every thought captive to obey Christ. At the end of the day, Mark, I think is as we work, he works. Once we've done what I've said, if it's our aspiration to speak the truth in love as Ephesians 4 says, if our desire is to stay submitted to the spirit, so walking with the spirit through the day, then as I think he thinks, as I work, he works. As as God uses my mind and my personality and what gifts and experience and education I I've had in my life as this partnership, this massive, marvelous partnership happens, as I work, he works, and as he works, I work. And so, it's not so much a monastic cave experience where I think we just sit and wait for dictation from God. I think it's we submit the day, we stay connected with God through the day, and we trust him to use our minds as he as we use our minds for his glory. And as we work, he works and the kingdom is advanced through us.

Mark Turman: [00:54:56] Yeah, such a good word and and um as we do that, right, we get to a place where he can trust us. As we trust him more, um we get to a place where he can trust us with the things that he wants us to be about. And that's uh a great, great way to live. Guys, thank you for the opportunity to have this conversation. Thank you for the ways that you consistently help us think well about the things that matter from scripture and that are happening in our culture. And uh I think this will be a really, really helpful podcast for our listeners. Want to thank our audience for tuning in and being followers of the Faith and Clarity podcast and Denison Forum as well. Thank you for supporting us with your prayers as well as with your financial support. We are a donor supported ministry and so if this resource and other things produced by Denison Forum are helpful to you, we would ask you to consider supporting us financially as well as with your prayers. We're grateful. Want to again thank you for tuning in. Uh please rate and review our podcast, share it uh with others as you have opportunity. Want to say thank you to to our DF team as well as to our friends at Sound of a Rose Productions. They are the technical uh handiwork behind all of what we do and we're grateful for them and we'll see you next time on the Faith and Clarity podcast. Thank you.