Heaven on Earth: What the Bible really promises about the new Earth

Mark Turman: [00:00:03] Welcome to Faith and Clarity. We want to spend some time today equipping you to find clarity in today's cultural confusion and some hope beyond the headlines. I'm Mark Turman, and this week we're talking about the very intriguing and hope-filled conversation about what God has planned for us next through a new work called Heaven on Earth, God's promise to make all things new, what eternity will really be like, a message that both adults and kids need to learn and spend more time with. So let's roll. My guest today, uh, one of them's familiar to you, Steph Thurling is the host of our Christian Parenting podcast and has been a part of Faith and Clarity before. And, uh, we're just glad to have her back. So we're going to co-brand our conversation today across Christian Parenting and Denison Forum. Steph, great to have you back with us.

Steph Thurling: [00:00:53] It is so good to be here. Thank you.

Mark Turman: [00:00:55] And our special guest today, uh, is Randy Alcorn, who is the director…

Randy Alcorn: [01:00:59] Not that Steph is not special.

Mark Turman: [01:02:41] Not that Steph is not special. Yeah, Mark. But she's just, he's new, okay. I'm old news. Yeah, he's just catching me right here at the beginning. Okay. Um, yeah, so Randy is familiar to many of you, but he is the founder director of Eternal Perspective Ministries, and they apply biblical truth to our lives, helping us to view our time, our money, our opportunities, everything that God entrusts to our hands through an eternal lens. Uh, many of you will recognize him because he is a prolific author, New York Times bestseller, author of 60 different books, including things like Heaven, The Treasure Principle, which Randy, we gave out to every family that joined our church, uh, that I pastored for 25 years, the book Safely Home. With decades of experience as a pastor, a teacher, a theologian, he brings a lot of insight to many topics, including the one we're going to talk about today, which is the promise of heaven and particularly around the idea Heaven on Earth. Randy, welcome to Faith and Clarity.

Randy Alcorn: [02:03:41] Hey, great to be with both of you and all of you.

Mark Turman: [02:07:21] Well, we're going to jump right into both of my special guests and uh, have a great conversation. And Randy, I just thought it would be really appropriate to start with a word of scripture. Uh, one I'm sure that you're familiar with and that you allude to in this new work, Heaven on Earth. Second Peter 3:10 in part says this. Peter's talking to uh, a group of Christians who know, uh, he knows that they are going to be facing scoffers, people who don't believe that heaven is real, they don't believe that the earth is ever going to be different than it is. Part of what Peter says in that conversation is this, the day of the Lord will come like a thief on a day, on that day, the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed. Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, it is clear what sort of people you should be in holy conduct and godliness. As you wait for the day of the Lord and hasten its coming, because of that day, the heavens will be dissolved with fire and the elements will melt with heat. But based on his promise, we wait for a new heaven and a new earth where righteousness dwells. Therefore, dear friends, while you wait for these things, make every effort to be found without spot or blemish in his sight at peace. Wow, there's a lot we could just unpack in those.

Randy Alcorn: [03:31:31] And thank you for reading that whole passage. Because if you just take part of it, you don't get the right picture.

Mark Turman: [03:38:91] Yeah, if you stop too soon. Exactly right. Yeah, it's actually about 10 or 12 verses in its full kind of context, I think. But Randy, just right off the bat, just kind of help us with the biblical uh, idea, the premise, the promise of this new heaven and earth and how that is different from many other ideas we hear about heaven in our culture today.

Randy Alcorn: [04:01:71] Yeah, it's really radically different and it's remarkable. Uh, I grew up in a non-Christian home. Um, and came to Christ when I was a teenager. Uh, then went to Bible college, seminary, became a pastor. And even then, I had very vague notions of heaven. I'd think about the present heaven and that is disembodied. Uh, but then when I would think about the eternal heaven, I knew we'd have resurrection bodies because that's clearly taught in 1 Corinthians 15 and throughout really the New Testament and even Old Testament allusions. But I couldn't figure out, okay, are we going to be in this place of clouds and vapor and all of that with physical bodies? And how does that even work? Um, because we won't be on an earth. I literally went through Bible college and seminary with being taught nothing about the new Earth. And there's several reasons for that. I mean, one is that just that the very problem that uh, we have what I call in my big heaven book, uh, Christoplatonism, this combination of the biblical gospel with the philosophy of Plato, which is the body's bad, the physical world is bad, and we need to and God is going to deliver us from a physical world, which is completely contradicted by the resurrection. But it's also contradicted by the new Earth. And because the new Earth is mainly talked about, though there's Isaiah references and other places, but um, is mainly talked about in the last two chapters of the Bible, uh, we never made it in my Hebrews to Revelation class to the last two chapters of the Bible because we were too busy talking about whether there's a mid-trib rapture, pre-trib, post-trib. So we we never made it to where we will live with Jesus and each other for eternity, which is pretty important. And you know, the beginning of a story and the end of the story, um, I've written a lot of fiction as well as non-fiction, is so important. The middle of the story you can't even really understand unless you know where the story began and where it's going. And the last two chapters of the Bible are like a mirror image in certain respects of the first two chapters of the Bible. Um, and so, uh, this whole concept of the new Earth is so vital because the truth is, God made us to live on this earth. Eden was a perfect, uh, place and it had people and it had animals and it was earthly, not worldly, which has negative connotations to many people, but earthly, not a place of sin, not a place of curse. We are living in an aberration, which is to be under the curse, didn't begin cursed, won't end cursed. The curse will be removed. We're promised that in scripture. And God's plan is not just to redeem people, it's to redeem the earth itself. And with that comes what's part of the earth? Well, read in Genesis 1, you there's no mistaking that animals are a vital part of the earth. And so when we're telling this children's story, we wanted to make sure that we had a dog, a golden doodle to be specific, to be part of it. The most popular dog of all these days. Yeah, it's golden doodles are so popular now. Now, I have a, uh, what's called a double doodle and a smaller version, um, of that. Uh, it's half golden doodle, half labradoodle, but that's my doodle Gracie and I'm with her every day and uh, Nancy and I picked her out together before my wife Nancy went home to be with Jesus and she has been a tremendous blessing.

Mark Turman: [08:14:21] Fantastic. You know, I was asked recently, Randy, at after a church service, how far did I think heaven was? Uh, and it's just so prevalent among what I would call the average, uh, Christian churchgoer that heaven is somewhere far away. Right. Um, that it's particularly disembodied, mystical, uh, as you said, vapor, clouds, harps, uh, and you know, thanks to the devil's, uh, long work on this, generally considered to be a boring place in many people's mindset. Um, what's, you know, and just listening to you talk for a moment, you know, Jesus's resurrection is the indication that we are not only material, but we will remain material and physical. Um, what's what's what's significant if we get that wrong?

Randy Alcorn: [09:07:11] Wow, if we get that wrong, for one thing, we will never look forward to heaven. And and honestly, I've had more people who who admit to me, well, I love the idea of there being no sin and no suffering. But that's the lack of the negative, not the presence of the positive. And that's the way most Christians think about heaven. And uh, I I have to say this, this kind of might sound presumptuous for me to say most Christians, but I would say I'm on a pretty short list of given having written seven heaven related books. I even work heaven into my novels, uh, sometimes. But, um, a short list of people who get the most questions about heaven because people have read my big heaven book or any of the spin-offs, the devotional, 50 days of heaven, any of those things. So I get these questions routinely. There is not a week that goes by and often not a day that goes by where I don't get an email, a text, a phone call, somebody asking me about heaven, what heaven is like. So I actually, I'm not an expert on many things, but I'm an expert on what Christians think about heaven. And I can just tell you, sometimes it's dismal. Sometimes it's even frightening. I've uh, had uh, I had a pastor tell me, um, his whole life he has dreaded heaven. And he's supposed to be teaching people about heaven and what the Bible says about heaven, but he says it just the tedium of going on and on and doing nothing but singing and I don't even like to sing, you know, and and and the solution is not to say, well, one day you will like to sing. It's to say what it says in Revelation 21 and 22 is his servants will serve him. Servants have things to do, places to go, people to see. That's why we think of heaven as being boring because we're not thinking of heaven on earth. We're not thinking of the new earth. We're thinking of this platonic disembodied place that is violated. I mean, scripture teaches against it. It says, you know, if there's no resurrection, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Mark Turman: [11:29:41] Yeah. And it just makes you think, makes me think as you talk that, uh, if we don't really have a good biblical understanding of heaven, we're not going to be people of hope and we're not going to be excited about sharing that hope.

Randy Alcorn: [11:40:41] Right. Well, and one of the things I say to people is, you will never, you can never, uh, a human being can never develop a taste for gravel. Okay? So, so it's, but this is what we're doing. We're we're saying to people, well, this is what heaven's going to be like. And I had a guy say to me one time, you know what? I I have to be honest with you, I'm dreading heaven. I love Jesus, but I'm dreading heaven. I I I the one thing I love about is to be with Jesus, but I and I said, well, why are you dreading heaven? And his answer was, you know what? What I wish is that heaven would be, he literally said these words, a perfect earth, an earth without sin and without all these. And the crazy thing was, that question was, he told me that at a time where my answer was not, what you're saying is exactly what the Bible promises. Because again, I was a pastor, but I had not been taught about the new Earth and did not research it until I was writing my big heaven book. So I didn't even have the right answer for him. I have thought several times, I hope that guy is out there somewhere and read my book or something else that convinced him that he actually had the right idea.

Mark Turman: [12:55:71] Yeah. You know, and Randy, we talk a lot at Denison Forum about how the Bible tells us all that we need to know, but maybe not all that we want to know. Um, and as a pastor, you know, the number one question you get when someone passes away is, am I going to, am I going to know my family members, my friends when I get to heaven? And I just emphatically tell people, of course, relationships is at the very essence of what, uh, God is all about, what relationship is all about. Um, but, uh, talk about this from the context of the book as it's targeted particularly at children, parents helping their children understand faith. Um, how should parents handle not being able to answer every question that their kids may have about heaven?

Randy Alcorn: [13:38:11] Well, first of all, I think, and certainly, uh, Lisa Tonberger, who's, uh, this book was her idea and she asked me to write it with her and be part of it and bring some of the theological insight that comes from my biblical studies and background and all of that. Um, but, uh, she's a delightful person and a great writer. And when she gave me the first draft, um, yeah, I gave input to it. I think we could do this or I think we should say this differently and that kind of thing. But our goal from the beginning was to give parents a tool to help them with their children at an early age come to a right understanding of the promises of God that they don't have to look at this earth as, you know, uh, this world is not my home, I'm just a passing through, you know, that idea that this world and the things that we rightly love in this world will not be a part of our eternal future. And that is a dreadful concept to a kid. You do not want to communicate that message, but historically, that has been the predominant message. Uh, and and somebody will say, I got this letter from somebody, uh, not that long ago saying, uh, should I, uh, how should I correct my children when they're talking about our dog who died and they're saying they they're hoping that they'll see that dog in heaven. I'm going, well, first of all, why would we start with the assumption that we would have to correct them? Yeah. But secondly, we know for sure it will be a world with animals. I mean, Isaiah 11 verses 6 through 9, it's got what, 10 different species of animals, predators, uh, and prey. Um, the the four dominant predators, uh, in, uh, in Israel that include the lion, the leopard, the bear, and who am I forgetting? Uh, oh, the wolf. Okay. And then it matches them up with these young, innocent, helpless creatures that they devour and they said, they'll all be living together in harmony. This is clearly the new Earth. Isaiah 65 repeats some of what is said in Isaiah 11 and calls it the new Earth. So there there's no mistaking it. And when kids and adults get that in their heads, it changes your view of it makes you look forward to eternity, to living forever on a redeemed earth with redeemed people, uh, and the resurrected Jesus and a real physical earth that God has made for his glory.

Mark Turman: [16:40:91] Great. Yeah.

Steph Thurling: [16:43:31] I love this resource because I think it gives parents a tool that they need because it's hard to talk to your kids about heaven. It's hard to talk about death, um, especially if your kids are actively grieving someone that they love, you know, like how do you bring that up, especially if you're grieving too, it's really, really hard. So this gives a tool to provide that hope for kids, which I think is amazing. But when do you think that parents should start talking about heaven and the new Earth with their kids? Like is this a conversation that we should be waiting for? Like let's get this book after someone we love dies or is this something that can be woven into the everyday discipleship that we do with our kids at home?

Randy Alcorn: [17:22:51] Yeah, I think the latter, woven into the everyday discipleship because I don't think you can start too early. I mean, uh, and you don't have to wait till grandma dies or, you know, whatever. Um, and and shouldn't. Um, because they will get wrong ideas. I mean, you think of the, uh, you know, most kids watch cartoons of one sort or another and, um, and the the stereotypes, uh, of these people in these robes and harps and the, you know, semi-disembodied sometimes and floating around. No child wants to grow up to be a ghost, right? Ghosts are scary. Disembodied spirits are scary. So, you know, let's not be talking to them about heaven as a disembodied state. Now, it's true that we're not resurrected one at a time when we die and go to heaven. We and we should help our children understand that and our grandchildren. But at the same time, uh, God has got this plan where the intermediate state, if indeed it is fully disembodied, and I'll come back to that, that is going to be corrected forever with a resurrection body where we will be living on this redeemed new Earth. So at most, it is a temporary period of time. Uh, Spurgeon had a great sermon, well, he had a lot of great sermons, but on, um, talking about the people now in the present heaven looking forward to and longing for the day of their resurrection. And I thought that is just great because yes, even people in heaven can know, this isn't the eternal state yet. That's still coming. And I think if we can convey that to our kids, uh, they have so much to look forward to.

Steph Thurling: [19:22:91] How would you to a young kid, a young child describe that hope that we have in a way that they would be able to understand?

Randy Alcorn: [19:33:11] I think if they could first of all get in their mind, the very best thing about heaven is to be with Jesus. Um, now, it's the very best thing, but I've actually heard some people say, all we should ever think about is not having reunion with loved ones and it's just that we're going to be with Jesus. And we we just bend over backwards sometimes to try to sound spiritual. The point is who gave us these relationships we love, who created these people we love. Um, and it's Jesus. So there's no contradiction whatsoever about longing to be with Jesus and also longing to be reunited with people we love who have died. And and this is when, you know, we do have the experience of somebody that, uh, and sometimes it's even a child who's died tragically, somebody our children or grandchildren knew, um, but these terrible things that happen in the world was for us to be able to reassure them, uh, based on what scripture says that we won't, uh, every once in a while somebody will take Isaiah 65:17 out of context where it says, uh, the former things will be forgotten, remembered no more. Well, the former things in the context are the evil things. So those are the former things. It's not saying we won't remember the people that we knew and loved. And by the way, you can prove that easily from scripture because it says, uh, in, um, Romans 14, it says in, uh, 1 Corinthians, um, it says in various places that we'll stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give an account of what we've done in the body. And one passage says, we will give an account of everything we've done. And another passage, Jesus said, we will give an account of every careless word. Now, does that tell us something about what our memories will be like? It won't be a blank slate. In order to even stand for the judgment seat of Christ and give an account of our lives, we will have to remember far more, not less than we now do. Our our minds will be better in heaven. That should be self-evident, right? But this idea of a memory wipe is frightening to people and it's frightening to children. Uh, you you tell a child and and people have done this. I've had people tell me, my parents told me, my Sunday school teacher told me, or even my pastor told me, told us and that we will not remember anything from this world. And they go, but I love a lot of things in this world.

Mark Turman: [22:15:41] Yeah. And this and even today, right? We consider it tragic when we hear that somebody is suffering with Alzheimer's. Um, you know, just just last night I heard that, uh, you know, Captain Sully who landed the plane in the Hudson, uh, had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. I mean, we consider the loss of memory to be a great tragedy. Right. Um, and it just makes me think of all the times that the Bible calls us to remember as well. So, all right, well, we're off to a good start. So let's take a little break and take a breather and let our audience do the same and we'll be right back.

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Mark Turman: [23:49:81] All right, we're back talking with Randy Alcorn about Heaven on Earth. Uh, Randy, I, I, I sometimes get this question. I get this question from relatives, uh, even in the last few years, uh, as we've had a number of people that have gone on to heaven from our family. Uh, Jesus was in this conversation, the Sadducees who didn't believe in resurrection at all are trying to, uh, embarrass him, discredit him. They come up with this, uh, very interesting story. Um, and Jesus corrects them. I think it's the only time that I remember that Jesus just looks at a a group of people and says, you're just flat wrong. Um, but part of what he says, Matthew 22:30 says this, for in the resurrection, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. Uh, how do we help ourselves? How do we help our children, our grandchildren think about family, family structure, uh, when we get to heaven on earth?

Randy Alcorn: [24:46:51] Well, a great question and uh, first of all, I would say, uh, he's being very specific when he says we'll be like the angels in heaven. In this one respect, that's what he's talking about. You know, angels aren't married, uh, we won't be married. He's not going to grow wings. Some people derive from that, we we will either be angels or we'll be just like angels and human beings and angels are two completely different, uh, entities of being, you know. Uh, so we want to avoid that. But we also want to say, now what was Jesus saying? Well, what most people end up concluding from that is there will be no marriage in heaven. But that's the wrong conclusion. The right conclusion is, when you bring in Ephesians 5 and multiple other passages is, there will be only one marriage in heaven and that's Christ to his church. So when Nancy and I would talk about this, um, and and, you know, we would understand when people would say, I I hate the idea of not being with my marriage partner and and God has brought us to great closeness in this world and all of that. Um, but the point is, as I remember saying this to Nancy one day, I was really excited about it because it had dawned on me for the first time when I was writing the heaven book, we, Nancy, you and I will be part of the same marriage for eternity. We will both be part of the bride of Christ married to a husband, a spouse who will never let us down ever. And and not only will he not let us down, he is all powerful and all knowing and he, I mean, everything you could want in the person you're married to and he bears on his hands and feet the marks of his sacrificial love for us. So it's not that God decides marriage is bad. It's that according to Ephesians 4, marriage represents, human marriage represents the love of God for his people, the devotion of God for his people. So God has given us the privilege of entering into this wonderful object lesson and being part of that. And husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and and wives submit to your husbands as Christ submitted to the Father and, you know, in in in total equality, you know. So to me, that passage should not cause so many people to be upset. Now, I do get upset people with that. They say, we we love our marriage and we don't and very honestly, I've had other people say, actually, it's a great relief to me. You know? Yeah, sadly. You know, that I won't, I mean, because they've had bad marriages. Um, and uh, I I've had all kinds of interactions with people who are in some cases almost in despair about that. I don't think we need to be at all. I I envision Nancy and I having a closer relationship we've ever had in terms of no sin in either of us, um, full knowledge of each other, uh, memories together, having shared the same family, the children, the grandchildren, what a marvelous, uh, eternity, I'm sure that we'll have with all kinds of new friends, sure. But don't and doesn't it stand to reason that the people that you stood side by side with and did battle not against, but with against the world, sin and Satan and all that will be your closest friends in heaven. I think so.

Mark Turman: [28:41:21] Yeah, and and we'll see everything in its proper context, right? And like and how it all uh fits together from God's perspective. Uh, Randy, you know as a pastor that perhaps the most difficult thing that pastors ever do is walk with families in the loss of a child. Um, I've had that, uh, responsibility, most sacred place I've ever been was in an ICU room where parents had to say goodbye to their child. Um, uh, in the book, you bring this question up. You you don't don't dodge it at all, which is a great thing. Uh, with the question, will children, will children who die be children in heaven? Give us some understanding of what you've learned through the scripture about the idea of learning, developing, growing when we are in the heaven on earth.

Randy Alcorn: [29:27:51] Well, first of all, one of the great delights of, um, working on, uh, Heaven on Earth with Lisa Berger, um, was being able to put ourselves in the place of children. Now, she's written, uh, I've written, you know, some children's books, but she's written a ton of children's books. So she she knows, she's used to it and she knows the way that children think and I know that from my own experience and not only kids and grandkids, but being around children, but she really knows it and knows what questions they ask and how best to answer them and put it, I was very impressed with her ability to come up with the right things to say. But I think, um, to help them understand that, uh, death is not the end. Death is a a tragic, difficult, and I don't think we should minimize it. You know, sometimes people say, oh, death's not so bad. I mean, you get to go see to be with Jesus and we should just be happy that grandma's with Jesus or my friend Tyler is with Jesus or whatever. Well, no, it's that's scripture doesn't portray it that way. Uh, we are to, uh, rejoice with those who rejoice, but be sorrowful with those who are sorrowful. Um, in fact, Paul describes, uh, the Christians in 2 Corinthians 6 as being sorrowful, yet always rejoicing, which is a lot better than rejoicing but being always sorrowful. You know, but the point is that we can rejoice in the middle. I mean, I've done so many memorial services. I just did two, uh, memorial services in the last few months. Uh, one was Chuck Norris, um, and his his, uh, funeral in Austin, Texas, but he was a dear friend, um, who rededicated his life after reading one of my novels and we became friends years ago. Another one, the wife of, uh, the man, Stu Weber, who, uh, started the church with me, Linda Weber's memorial service. And there is a weight and there's a sadness even for the loss of a believer, which you you actually see in Acts where, uh, these righteous people, when Stephen dies, it talks about their mourning of him, even though they heard and saw Stephen see Jesus at the right hand of God. I mean, so you can have all that consolation. I mean, what what more could you ask for? But he's not with us anymore and his death was a tragedy and he was, you know, uh, put to death by this this mob. So I think we with children need to face up to the reality that it's a hard thing. And Lisa and I do that in the Heaven on Earth book. But at the same time, they're talking about remembering grandma and they're talking about what it was like and she's still in their memories. In fact, one has a like a picture of her, uh, with the dog, the golden doodle, and the golden doodle is a puppy, which is your clue, we're going back in time, but they remember and they're asking questions, well, what what does grandma know and what does grandma experiencing? And I think everything that she's experiencing is good. It's not the lack of anything, it's an enhanced, uh, reality in the presence of God. But at the same time, it's looking forward to a new heavens and a new earth, which we will, and this is one of the exciting things to me, we will colonize it together. Nobody gets to the new earth before anyone else. We're brought down from heaven to the old earth in the return of Christ, but then taken and different timetables for people's different eschatologies, but then we are taken to live forever on the new earth where heaven is relocated. And all will be well, all will be right, and we'll be able to explore that world together. I mean, to me, you don't get more exciting than that.

Steph Thurling: [33:40:81] As you're speaking, I'm thinking a lot of the parents, especially the moms who lose pregnancies. Yes. And, you know, you so so many people have such kind words of, you know, there you're someday you'll see your grandma walk rocking your baby that you never got to meet on on earth or, you know, they just feel there's so many complicated grieving points to losing a baby before they get earth side. So speak to that for a moment to the parent who never got to meet their child, but has the hope that they will someday.

Randy Alcorn: [34:14:11] Yes, and that is such a great question and it hits close to home. Uh, one of my daughters, uh, had a miscarriage and, uh, Nancy and I often talked as did our our daughter about, uh, was this a boy or a girl? That was not certain. For some reason, we all believed it was a girl. And maybe because we have five grandsons and no granddaughters, maybe it was hopes speaking. But for some reason, I still believe I'm going to that my wife Nancy has already met her granddaughter in heaven and and that certainly that, uh, I will someday, boy or girl. Um, but one of the things that I say to people, and this is kind of different. I said this in my heaven book and I I have reinforced it since then. I really kind of come to it as a as my primary viewpoint because, uh, we see it in Isaiah 65, but especially, uh, well, we see it in Isaiah 11 and 65 when it's talking about the new Earth, and it's talking about children being with these animals. Okay. So what what does that tell you? It's new Earth and there's children. Well, not because we're reproducing because we're not, because there's no marriage, right? And the sexual union is part of marriage and inseparable from it. So I, you know, some people say, well, obviously there must still be sex in heaven because we've got babies, children, uh, of various ages in these passages. No, I actually think the biggest possibility with that is that children are raised at the age they were. Now, for a miscarriage, you you'd need a certain amount of fast forwarding. Say that they were, say that they come back as infants. Now the question is, how does an infant survive on the new Earth? Well, you know, there's no pain and suffering, right? So it's not like they're going to die or anything. But to me, the logical answer is, and I think it's a very beautiful concept, is that God will take their parents or one of their parents or whoever's, you know, there in heaven and give them and then on the new Earth after the resurrection and give them the privilege of raising a child in a world without sin and suffering. And is wouldn't that be just like God who says, you know, blessed are those who mourn. Happy are those who mourn. That's what the word Macarius there means, happy are those who mourn. Why? Because they're going to be comforted. And how is this comfort? Not just to have the bad things taken away, but maybe they won't miss out on the growing up years of their children. Maybe God will bless them with the privilege that would be worth everyone else envying of raising a child in a perfect world where you don't have to worry about them being abducted. You don't have to worry about them getting leukemia. You don't have, you know, all of that. That's just a possibility, but I think given the children on the new Earth passages, I think it's a strong possibility.

Steph Thurling: [37:36:71] Yeah. And it's a beautiful possibility. I just, I think that would give a lot of hope to parents thinking that it even is a possibility because I think so many people are just, it's done, it's over, you know, like in that huge grief, they just feel like there's nothing but loss, but there is always hope in that, no matter what, because of Jesus.

Randy Alcorn: [37:54:31] And for sure we know that all who are in heaven, uh, will ultimately be resurrected and live for eternity on the on the new Earth. So reunion with that child, I think is a certainty. You know, whether what I was saying, you know, raising the child, you know, that's not a certainty, that's me speculating, but just to know, I will get to know that child. And I would say if if we have the options open to us, who do we want to spend time with on the new Earth? I can tell you who those parents want to spend time with. And I would think the child would want to, I want to meet my parents, you know, what a joy.

Steph Thurling: [38:35:11] Yeah. Well, scripture tells us that God is making all things new, so there are so many possibilities on the new Earth. But I want to talk a little bit about not necessarily grief from loss, but what does that promise mean for kids who are living with disabilities or adults too? Um, but people who are living with chronic illness or disabilities or just things that are really, really hard. Like what hope do they have for the new Earth?

Randy Alcorn: [39:04:11] Yeah, I mean, I think it's all the hope in the world and Lisa and I tried to reflect that in Heaven on Earth, uh, and and one of the things I love about it is that parents and kids can read it together or parents can read it to kids and there can be family discussions and family anticipation of the world to come. But in terms of disability, that's an interesting one because, um, some people have said, well, let's say your disability is Down syndrome, will a Down syndrome child no longer have this disease called Down syndrome, but every parent of Down syndrome children, and I've been around some Down syndrome children, uh, loves those kids the way they are. And so will God take away, yes, the disease, uh, but when we say take away the deformity, does that mean there will no longer be that distinctive look that a Down syndrome. I don't think there's anything wrong with that distinctive look. I think it's it in its own way, I would want if I had a Down syndrome grandchild, I would still want to see the face of that child. Um, and I think that's very likely. But no, uh, deformities in the sense of if you had lost a leg, an arm, um, if you had had a facial, you know, thing, all kinds of the different things that we see. Um, none, nothing, uh, that's the result of sin and the curse. Just, uh, health, great health. Um, I think we will bear resemblance. Uh, I I think it's one of the ways we'll recognize people. Um, and there's nothing wrong with the way that people look unless it is this accident caused thing or disease caused thing. And so I think we'll get to enjoy looking and immediately knowing. You know, even the disciples, uh, it's interesting in the transfiguration, you have the disciples talking about, uh, and you have the Luke and Matthew and the different gospel writers, and it's like they're with Moses and Elijah and and it's like it requires no explanation. I mean, they didn't have, uh, posters in their tents of Moses and Elijah. So, oh, yeah, I recognize that, you know. Um, no, it you just intuitively knew who it was. You see the rich man and Lazarus in, uh, Luke 16. And they they know Abraham, Abraham knows them, and they didn't even know each other in this life. And so I think, uh, we may be walking along and see the Apostle Peter without him wearing a name tag, the Apostle Peter, you know, and just, welcome, thank you for your contribution to my life. I mean, there might be a long line in front of Peter, but, uh, there'll be plenty of time, uh, time forever. And by the way, that's one of the misconceptions people have about eternity. Uh, it's timeless. You'll hear this all the time. Uh, heaven is timeless. There's no time. Well, first of all, that cannot be true, uh, because you have, uh, uh, the the tree of life, uh, bearing a new fruit every month. That's a measurement of time. Revelation 8:1 says there was silence in heaven for half an hour. That's a measure of time. Um, and it it, uh, even singing is based on time. You have to have half notes and full notes and all. The song cannot end at the same time it begins. We will still be finite forever, which means we will live in space and time.

Steph Thurling: [42:57:51] Okay, so another thing that parents and especially kids talk about and wonder about all the time is their pets. And you've talked about this a little bit. I know that you're passionate about it. Is my dog going to go to heaven with me? And how do you talk, how would you encourage families to think biblically about animals in the restoration of creation?

Randy Alcorn: [43:20:91] Yeah, uh, here here's what I would do. Uh, and, uh, we have some scripture references in Heaven on Earth that, you know, uh, bring these things to people's attention. We have, uh, in, uh, Acts 2, um, Peter talking about or Acts 3, uh, talking about the coming renewal of all things that, uh, that was spoken of by the prophets. Isaiah particularly, but Ezekiel, other prophets as well. And the renewal of all things. All right, what does all things mean? What does all things include? Well, it's obviously talking about all things on earth, okay? Then, uh, we have a similar statement, uh, from Jesus about the coming, uh, um, renewal or depending on the translation, um, the, uh, not resurrection of all things, but it's it's it's that idea. Um, and then we have, uh, Colossians 1, uh, 10 that promises, uh, God will, uh, bring together all things in heaven and on earth and through the shed blood of Jesus will make this union and it's very obvious it's an eternal, uh, reunion and once again, it's all things. Ephesians 1, very similar statement, I think it's verse 20, uh, all things. And then you have Revelation, uh, 21, uh, all things made new. Okay, now, do you get the impression that God really means all things? I mean, what does all things mean? In the Greek, what all things mean is what the English translation of it means, all things. So, could all, uh, is it possible all things will include our pets? Well, it would seem to me all things, if all things means all things that yes, it would. But then when you put it together with Romans 8, and this is what is really exciting, um, to me, is Romans 8 talks about the whole creation suffers and the whole creation longs for, and it distinguishes between us as part of God's creation and the rest of creation. When he's talking about the whole creation, he's he's talking about the rest of creation that's under the curse. Animals came under the curse, not for their sin, they didn't sin, but for our sin. And then it says, all creation is looking forward to the renewal that will come, the deliverance that will come from all the present groaning and suffering in the resurrection of God's children. So it doesn't directly say animals will be resurrected, but it does say the whole creation including animals because they're part of that whole creation for sure on earth is going to has a reason to hope and look forward to the resurrection of God's children because just as the whole creation fell on our coattails, the whole creation shall rise on our coattails. So to me, does that include pets? I see absolutely no reason why not. I mean, it definitely includes animals, but it's not just animals in general that are part of creation. It's animals in particular that we knew and loved. And wouldn't it be just like God out of his kindness to absolutely delight his children to bring back to life in the new world a beloved pet. And yeah, I I get some people have had bad experiences with pets. And so they would go, that would be purgatory for me. No, but no, but but the point is all things will be well there. And even a pet that you didn't like for whatever reason that was bothersome or whatever or that bit you because that's a common one. You know, what well, there's not going to be any of that. I mean, if you have these predators that no longer harm people, by the way, wolves, uh, and dogs, right? There's that connection. And then you've got lions and cats. And so dogs and cats, the most common pets and go, well, you we've already got examples of people in those families of animals that will be, not people, but animals on the new Earth.

Mark Turman: [47:56:41] Well, I've I've I I got to think through this, Randy, because I've had seven or eight dogs across the span of my life. I now now I have to know that I'm going to need a farm or or at least a big dog kennel in some way. Or I can or I can send them to Steph, right? I can send them to Steph and she can take the four or five I don't need.

Steph Thurling: [48:24:91] Can't wait.

Randy Alcorn: [48:26:51] Yeah. Well, here's the thing, and it doesn't necessarily mean that those dogs would have to live with you. Those dogs might be happier just going wild, you know, and

Steph Thurling: [48:28:41] One more thing to look forward to. I can't wait.

Mark Turman: [48:33:11] But you know, so many great things to think about. When you start thinking about how many positive different ways, I love the phrase, wouldn't it be just like God to do it in this beautiful kind of wonderful way, uh, where our lives are just so overflowing with blessing, right? From friends and family and yeah.

Randy Alcorn: [48:50:51] Yeah. Remember, scripture says God knows how to give good gifts. Jesus said that. And won't that just, I mean, I can just see that happening.

Mark Turman: [49:01:51] Yeah. Randy, we're getting to the end of our time together, but just a question or two to to finish up, which is, I love the way the book brings out the idea that heaven on earth is both, uh, gift and reward. Uh, you alluded to this earlier, the, you know, giving an account, uh, of what we have done in the body. Uh, how do we, uh, talk about how this book really is a useful tool to explaining that, um, that a good understanding of eternity of heaven on earth for can for kids and adults, uh, is about, uh, the humility of receiving grace and the joy of discipleship and holiness.

Randy Alcorn: [49:44:61] Yeah, um, one way I would put it, just maybe slightly different, but same idea, is that we know that salvation, which is what's required for our presence with God for eternity, is not a reward. It's fully a gift. However, scripture says way more about rewards than we usually give it credit for, but it it those rewards are the rewards of God honoring our service and rewarding our service for him, uh, not anything to do with our salvation, except that our service for him is the product of our, uh, the fruit of our salvation. And he will say to some, uh, well done, my good and faithful servant. So there he's not simply talking about, well done that you worked your way to heaven because they didn't work their way to heaven. But well done that you served me in the life that I gave you. And so I think distinguishing between salvation and rewards. And probably the best way to do that is, uh, Ephesians 2, um, uh, 8 through 10, where by grace you've been saved through faith, that not of yourselves is a gift of God, not by works lest anyone should boast. And usually that's where it ended, but then he goes right on to say, coming straight out of that, for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works. So no sooner does he say, your good works won't save you, then he says, you actually were created to do those good works that won't save you. Because they come out of your salvation, your walk with God. So I think a family can say, you know, kids, how sometimes, um, mom and dad do the wrong thing, that's called sin. Sometimes you do the wrong thing and that's called sin. And, you know, we've asked your forgiveness when we've done the wrong thing, which I really encourage people to do. Um, and then, uh, and then acknowledges that sometimes they do the wrong thing. So you confess, you ask God's forgiveness. But then you try to do good things. And God has actually, kids, called you to a lifetime of good works, which he will approve of and empower you for, whatever words you would use with kids besides empower, he'll help you to do it, he'll enable you to do it. Um, and then he will reward you for doing those things. So we don't deserve heaven, we don't deserve the reward, but he wants to give us the reward and it's not wrong to look forward to hearing the greatest reward, which I think will be to hear the words, well done, my good and faithful servant.

Mark Turman: [52:31:31] Yeah, so good, so good. You know, it's so clear to me just having this conversation with you just how excited you are about heaven. Um, and that's that feels contagious through this conversation. Uh, I'm just wondering as we wrap up, uh, you've studied heaven a lot, great presentation for children, other works that you've done on heaven. Is there some question about heaven that you're really eager to get the answer to when you get there?

Randy Alcorn: [52:58:81] It's a great question. Yeah, it is a great question. Um, certainly like everyone else, um, I I've done, you know, different kinds of books, you know, heaven, I've got a pro-life books, I've done, um, books on finances, all of that. But the group of books, uh, in certain ways, probably heaviest on my heart have been the problem of evil and suffering books. Um, if God is good is one of those and several spin-offs from it. So I would say, I believe wholeheartedly, I haven't actually no doubt in my mind that God truly will bring good out of our suffering. And I do believe Romans 8:28, God causes all things to work together for good to those who love him, to those who are the called according to his purpose. Uh, maybe I will immediately understand once I'm there, but maybe there will be a process of learning where I can ask the questions, okay, I get it about the suffering of Jesus and what came out of that. I get it about different things that I've seen. I even get it about my wife Nancy, who I miss with all my heart. And I've seen such goodness that God brought about in her life, in the lives of our kids and grandkids, uh, seeing her example of faith. So I've seen that. But there are those really troubling ones, those vicious murders that are seen by the children and it seems like they're scarred for life. Um, I'd like to be able to say, I believe you 100%, Lord, but would you show me now here in heaven, the good that came out of those things? Yes. And I think he'll be able to do that.

Mark Turman: [54:55:41] Yeah, big, big questions, big questions. A lot for us to look forward to as God reconciles all things to himself. Randy, Steph, thank you for the conversation today and for being a part of this work. Um, Randy, tell us where we can find the the children's book Heaven on Earth. Where can we find that?

Randy Alcorn: [55:16:11] Well, you can get it at Christian bookstores, you can get it online, uh, from Amazon, uh, Christianbook.com, you know, various places. Um, and of course, if you want it in the ebook form, there's the places you can get it again in those same places. Um, certainly, um, Christian Book and Amazon. Um, so, yeah.

Mark Turman: [55:40:11] Well, tell people not to miss, not to miss the, uh, illustrations, the the graphics, the pictures, the artwork in this book are excellent and will really be great for your kids.

Randy Alcorn: [55:51:71] Yeah, James who did the illustrations, I'm just double checking the name to make sure I was remembering right. Oh my word. We voted kind of on, uh, I think maybe it was four different artists and so glad we landed on him because he did even better than we expected and it truly is beautiful. And it captures, I think the joy. I don't know, you know, you can look at art and sometimes art itself, not just the smiles on the faces that connote happiness, but the look of the dog that connotes happiness, that everything about it, they're it's just happy. And I love the happiness that's in this book and I think it will draw kids and parents into the message.

Mark Turman: [56:39:41] Yeah, well in a in a culture that's starving for hope and joy, it's a good word. It's a very good word. Thank you all again for being a part of this. Thank you to our audience for tuning in. And uh, if this podcast has been helpful to to you, we encourage you to rate, review us on your podcast platform, share it with others, family and friends. And uh, if God leads you, we would appreciate you supporting Denison Ministries. That enables us to continue to put out great resources and conversations like this. Uh, if you want to send us a question, we would love to hear from you at [email protected]. And uh, if you have a question, we would love to take that up in one of our future episodes. We do that from time to time. I want to reach out and just say a word of appreciation to our podcast team, Aubrey Kerr and Connor Jones, as well as our friend at Sound of a Rose production agency. They help us and we'll see you next time on Faith and Clarity. God bless you.