A Secret Service agent's 9/11 survival story, and the faith that carried him

Mark Turman: [00:00:01] This is Faith and Clarity. I'm Mark Turman. Welcome back to the podcast. This week we're talking about September 11th, 2001. As you're probably aware, we're coming up on the 25th anniversary of that very tragic and fateful day. And uh we're going to talk about what Dr. Jim Denson sometimes mentions, if you follow his article, God redeems all he allows. And uh we want to see how God has done that in a particular way uh through one of my guests as we seek to equip you to live by faith and not by fear, to find hope beyond the headlines. And so uh if you've been a regular Faith and Clarity follower, you know uh that I like to include this phrase at the beginning. It's really been kind of a tribute uh to those that we lost on 9/11. Uh came from one of those that was a victim on one of those airplanes, Todd Beamer, his famous phrase, let's roll. So my uh guest today is Darin Kidner. Darren is uh a survivor as well as a victim and a thriver, I would say, uh from the experience of 9/11 25 years ago. Uh he is a former Secret Service agent who experienced this day firsthand just 100 yards or so away from the World Trade Center. He's going to tell us more about that and uh a lot of other principles and truths that God uh brought into his life and and uh just really magnified in his life on that day and in many ways since that day. Uh he's told his story in a recent book called Bury Me in a Dirty Suit and uh we're going to talk about that and some other experiences as well. Darren, welcome to Faith and Clarity. We're glad to have you with us.

Darin Kinder: [00:01:48] I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you, Mark.

Mark Turman: [00:01:51] So Darren, tell us just a little bit about your personal story, about your uh where you grew up, your uh story of faith, how you entered up ended up going into the Secret Service and were assigned to New York City 25 years ago.

Darin Kinder: [00:02:05] Sure, sure. I grew up in Central Virginia. Um I was in a I had a front row seat to service. My mother was a nurse, my father worked for an agency that uh that served the blind. Uh my brother, you know, went into law enforcement for over 25 years and and my track was um I was going to go into the military. Uh that was just what I always thought I wanted to do. Uh I came to faith in high school uh through my church youth group and uh one of my best friends, his father was my was my pastor and it just uh it was a beautiful thing. But uh after college, going to go in the military and was medically ineligible because of a history of asthma. And um gosh, didn't know really what to do. I my first time as an adult feeling like purpose, you know, with with no purpose, purposelessness, I guess. And um gosh, I I taught high school history. I did that for four years and and absolutely loved it, but um there was an itch, Mark, that still needed to be scratched. And I started looking for other avenues, other ways to to serve uh since I couldn't do the military and I I I found myself landing with the uh US Secret Service in in February of uh 2000.

Mark Turman: [00:03:15] Hmm.

Darin Kinder: [00:03:16] Hmm.

Mark Turman: [00:03:17] So, tell us a little bit about the the experience of being assigned to New York. Was that your very first assignment with the service or uh um how did you actually end up in that spot?

Darin Kinder: [00:03:30] That was. That was. After six or seven months of of rigorous training, uh I was a small town kid in the big city. Uh small town Virginia arriving in New York City. I was assigned to the New York field office. And at the time at least, that was the largest field office that the Secret Service had in the country. Uh because in addition to all of our protective duties, we also do criminal investigations. And so um in New York City, I was I was doing a heavy dose of of both and our our office was actually in Seven World Trade Center, which is the the which was the third largest building of that of that complex, World Trade 7, right across the street from uh World Trade 1, the North Tower.

Mark Turman: [00:04:08] Okay. So, uh this is really kind of an unfair question, but wanted to just maybe paint uh uh a big picture. Uh what were you uh what was your job that morning? What were you supposed to be doing or what were you engaged in doing uh the morning of September 11th and uh and then from that, if if you had to summarize this story that you've uh included in your book, if you tried to put that into a paragraph, what would that large paragraph sound like?

Darin Kinder: [00:04:39] Oh my. Oh my. Uh what we were supposed to be doing was it was supposed to be a boring day of meetings, honestly. We had the United Nations General Assembly uh coming to New York in a couple of weeks. Um world leaders from all over the, you know, from all over the world were going to we're going to be there. And so it was going to be a logistics day and meetings and we're all putting on suits and um not going to be an exciting day for a young uh for a young Secret Service agent who just wants to get after it. And then of course, the world stopped turning. Um you know, I I like to say, I wrote this in my book as well. Um when we when we were told to evacuate our building, I went we went out onto out onto the street and I'm looking directly up at the North Tower on the north uh on the north side. That's where the first plane impacted. And um it was about me and about probably a group of about 30 secret service agents. And uh this was not our mission. You know, this was not what we were called to do. This is not what we were trained to do. This is this had nothing to do with us professionally. But in a moment, in an instant, we went from special agent to first responder. And you know, we just we just kind of answered that bell, answered that call because firefighters and police officers were running all around. Um and we just started rendering first aid. And so uh for me that that that meant rendering first aid. myself at one point, two other agents went up into the North Tower and helped some people uh evacuate. Uh both towers, um I was ridiculously close close when both towers went down. I I I should have died. The Lord spared me at least three times that day. I'm confident in that. Wow. Um and then at one at one point we were, you know, myself and three other agents were uh were commandeering fire equipment that wasn't being used and and helping put out putting out fires and and doing search and rescue in the in the in the mezzanine, the the mall level of the World Trade Center. It was just one thing after another, a really long day that just kept getting worse. It was it was unbelievable.

Mark Turman: [00:06:37] Yeah.

Darin Kinder: [00:06:37] Yeah.

Mark Turman: [00:06:38] So tell us uh how God prompted you to put this all in writing, to tell your story and put it in print and tell us a bit about how challenging that might have been for you to to actually relive this experience.

Darin Kinder: [00:06:53] Sure. You know what, Mark, I didn't speak about this for 10 years. It wasn't until the 10-year anniversary. I was prompted by a couple of spiritual mentors of mine to start sharing this uh because their point was this, um you've got a story that people need to hear and you can do bring some good. And so the objective was, let's make this a Romans 8:28 kind of thing, right? Let's God uses all things to come together for good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose. And I am called according to his purpose. And so I started sharing this story publicly through speaking and and at that point, I started writing this book in my head for about 10 years. I wrote this book. And um what I found was as I shared it more publicly in my speaking ministry and as I wrote the book itself, um a tremendous amount of healing uh and restoration started to happen for me. I I thought I was doing this so I could so I could impact others for Christ and bring some light into the dark darkness. Uh but at the same time, it wasn't an either or, it was an and both. At the same time, the Lord started using this experience to bring a a lot of amount of healing that quite frankly, I didn't even know I needed.

Mark Turman: [00:08:04] Hmm. Wow. Well, it's just great to hear that that God has been able to use that and to even just the experience of writing it out and thinking through it. I, you know, personally, I don't know what other people's experience is, but I find it difficult, you know, I was pastoring a church in the Dallas area on that day. Um and I find it difficult to listen to stories, to watch uh documentaries or movies about that day. It just it just is so painful as an American and as an observer. I can only imagine what it must have been like for somebody like you and for others uh to have to walk back through those. Uh I have a a few friends that were in the city as well and they find it very difficult at times to talk about. Um and so we appreciate you doing that. Darren, one of the things that kind of works as a thread all the way through your story is just this phrase, do the next thing. Do the next thing. Um talk about how that became a pervasive thought, how it propelled you uh one step at a time throughout that day and how that really is kind of a fundamental aspect of faith of just do the next thing.

Darin Kinder: [00:09:19] Absolutely. Uh it is a mantra. My family, uh we have a we have several mantras. I have my wife and I have four sons and uh and that's one of them that resonates throughout our house. And and on that day, uh really it was just me with a with a with a group of other other people, other agents, and we were just encountering one problem after another, you know, kind of one issue after another. Uh I kind of liken it to, you know, when you're in football practice back in the day and they have those they have those tackling dummies. You go up and you knock down the dummy and then you what? You move to the next dummy and then you knock that dummy down and then you knock that. And and I call that stacking victories, stacking wins. Because if you just do the next thing repeatedly, on repeat, bam, bam, bam, um you start stacking these wins and at the end of the day for me, on that particular day, I have this phenomenal, incredible story of um of of of bringing some light into the darkness that um that I couldn't have planned out, that I certainly couldn't have mapped out at the beginning of the day because I didn't know where this thing was going. And if you apply that to the Christian life, hey, Mark, you and I don't know where this thing's going. You know, uh uh it can be it can be 70 degrees, 70 degrees, barbecues and ball games uh for years. And then uh life has a way of getting upside down and dark really quickly, does it not? With uh that job loss or the diagnosis that you never saw coming or the marriage that hits the rocks that you didn't even see were there and um so for me, how do I apply that mindset? You know, that those stacking those wins on 9/11 to create a great story that I can share today. How do I apply that to the Christian walk? I mean, that is it is uh as uh as uh Peterson, I believe once said, it's that long steady march, uh obedient march in the right direction. And for me that is just being obedient in the next thing. Whatever the Lord lays in front of me, I don't know what's around the next turn. I don't have a 10-year plan. I don't even have a five-year plan. And for me that's very difficult. But uh we don't know what's around the next bend. Um you know, I've had all kinds of tragedies in in in my life uh um as an adult and uh you don't see them coming. But when you're obedient, when you're following the will of God, and that's where the sweetness is, the sweet spot. When you're following the will of God, uh one step at another and just whatever he's entrusting in you now and and placing to you now, you do it and you do it well, um he's going to he's just going to keep stacking these victories and at the end of the day, I have no doubt we're all going to be able to look back and and look at our life well lived, a life that was worthy of the uh the calling for which we were uh uh we that was placed upon us.

Mark Turman: [00:11:54] Yeah, it's just such a good reminder that, you know, as uh as someone said, you can never measure the eternal significance of daily faithfulness. Uh of just that thing that God puts into your hand today. Uh how do you handle it well? How do you use it well for God's glory? Uh a big part of your ministry today, a big part of your story uh has to do with uh really speaking into the lives of men in particular. We'll get into that a little bit more, but uh I noticed uh before we started recording, you had an Air Force coffee cup. Uh I have a good friend uh who is uh a former Air Force as well. Uh he has a phrase that that I want to share with you. This is his phrase he often reminds me of. Uh if you don't have a minute left in your calendar, a dollar left in your bank account, a tow strap, a first aid kit, or a set of jumper cables, you're not equipped to be the hands and feet of Christ. Uh one of the things I thought was really intriguing as you told your story that day, uh that you walked away from your desk without a flashlight and without a radio. Uh and just talk about that reality and how basic equipment is needed to be basically helpful to so many situations.

Darin Kinder: [00:13:14] Yeah, I love that. I love that question. I love that phrase. That sounds like a good man. Um yeah, I make a kind of a funny, you know, I make fun of myself a little bit in the book where I was just a young and inexperienced agent. I was only 27 years old. And when I evacuated the building, I left um basically every piece of gear that I would need that day. The flashlight, the radio, those things. Uh I left it there at my desk and and everything that I wouldn't need, I I made sure that I grabbed. Like I grabbed a spare magazine for my pistol. I grabbed my handcuffs, okay? I'm not what I'm not going to be using those later in the day and uh as an example. Um so yeah, I I think that's uh that's that's that's incredibly important. And and and in the in the Christian walk and the in the the journey of sanctification, right? Uh we need to uh equip ourselves with those basics, okay? And we're not talking about, you know, flashlights and and knives, although I do carry a flashlight and a knife wherever I go because a knife is a tool and a flashlight is is uh I've used it many, many times over the years. I learned some hard lessons that day. Um but it's about making yourself um uh available and having the skills and the talents and and the and the experience to leverage when uh you encounter those uh those things. I mean, like you said, having a having a tow rope and the uh having a tow rope and jumper cables in your car. Hey man, I mean we've we've all done that. But also uh in the in the relationship, especially when it comes to to man to man, you know, men men just communicate so much better shoulder to shoulder a lot of times than they do eyeball to eyeball. Uh being able to pull alongside of a of a man who may be going a Christian brother who may be going through a hard time and saying, yeah, yeah, I've been there. I've been through that season that you're in right now. Uh but there is uh there is light on the other side of this dark forest. How can I how can I walk you through that? How can I pray with you? How can I share my own experiences? And for me, the most successful thing uh the method that I've used that's had success was uh teaching teaching from my scars, teaching from my failures, teaching from from those moments where I came up short, where I missed the mark, uh so that so that others don't make them same mistakes.

Mark Turman: [00:15:24] Yeah, that God never waste a hurt, God never waste a scar in that sense. Um Darren, I wonder if you take a few minutes. Uh one of the things I I really was captured by in hearing your story was just some of what I would call not necessarily the untold, but the maybe little tone, little told stories of 9/11. Uh some of the things I'm thinking about is you're the first person I've ever heard talk about the sound of the towers collapsing. Uh and then you also related uh a powerful story about the 9/11 boat lift. Uh and then what happens on September 12, 13 and 14? Could you tell us a little bit of some of those stories uh just so we get a sense of what that day was like for you and for others?

Darin Kinder: [00:16:15] Sure, sure. You and I in our daily life, we don't know what it sounds like when when steel is about to break and lose its its fight with against fire and gravity, right? And so uh I this is one of my vivid memories of that day is is the sound, the sounds and the smells. And and one of those sounds was this high-pitched metal on metal, just kind of screeching and kind of it's as if the steel was aching, you know? And then it just it just gave and it just buckled and I remember hearing that sound and looking up uh less than a football field from the from the base of Tower 2. And just as I looked up, I saw, you know, it broke, you know, that it buckled, the top buckled and started to collapse and and when I started what I call my mad dash for life as I'm running, uh just the sounds of each floor. You know, we we see it on TV, you see it collapse and those floors kind of pancake on top of each other. But at when you're on the ground and you're running from that, um each one was each one was louder, each one was closer. You know, and it's and then it's just barreling, it's like a a freight train coming down your back uh as you hear that uh as you see that debris storm and large chunks of debris falling all around you. Just just utter madness. And so none of that I'm seeing because I'm running in the opposite direction, but I'm hearing all of it. It was it was it was fascinating. Uh the smells of of 9/11, um I I mean, forgive me for being graphic, but the smells of of um of burnt flesh. Wow. is something something you you can't forget, you can't get out of your mind. Uh the smells of the just the the the the burning of of everything. I mean, everything being on fire. Um it's the smell is what and it that lingered for weeks, unfortunately, Mark. Um so I'll never forget that. Um things like that are just it's one thing that I enjoyed in writing the book because I didn't want to tell you about it. I wanted to take you there. Right. And that was my goal was to take the the reader, take the listener there and put drop them, kind of air drop them into that space. Um the the 9/11 boat lift is is fascinating and there's like an 11-minute video on uh YouTube if if your listeners wanted to look it up. It's really fascinating. But um at the end of the at the at the end of the day, I ended up riding a boat, a police boat across the Hudson River to Hoboken, New Jersey where I lived. And um and it was wild and and I I I compare it to the evacuation of Dunkirk in the book. You know, Dunkirk in 1940, the the allied army is being being pushed off of Continental Europe and 340,000, I think, allied soldiers are evacuated in nine days. So 340,000 soldiers evacuated off of Europe across the channel in nine days. On September 11th, 2001, 500,000. Wow. Um you know, citizens were evacuated off of Manhattan Island via boat in nine hours. Wow. And that just just blows my mind. 150 vessels of all kinds responded, 600, you know, captains and sailors and uh answered the call, became what I call citizens. And um it's just just fascinating. No. Yeah, and that's that's something I really would encourage people to find that video as well as uh hear your story. It just people just stepping up and just I'll take what's in my hand. I'll take my boat and I'll go do the next thing that I can help with. Uh and just a remarkable uh experience. Um uh Darren, as you know, you work with men a lot particularly. Uh many people have written in the last number of years about how men are struggling in our culture. Um how they are in many ways very lonely. Uh it seems like survey after survey after survey is telling us that most men don't have significant friendships. Uh what a couple of my buddies call their homies. They don't have a homie network. Um and uh so many men are living uh what's been called lives of quiet desperation. Um your book and your story illustrates this in a very profound way. Uh talk about uh some of what you share in the story about finding your guys, how uh in that initial moment, you were standing there on the sidewalk looking up at the North Tower, your 30 of your guys are there, all of a sudden you're all running and then it's like you're completely alone. Talk about how just reconnecting with some of your fellow agents really just um changed the whole dynamic of that day.

Darin Kinder: [00:20:50] Yeah, uh that's a great question. I I agree with everything you preface it with, right? The the the lonely desperation. And so, uh one of the points I wanted to make in the book was um you know, cohesive teams uh kind of serve as a force multiplier. Uh when you're working in groups, when you're working in in in units and and men in law enforcement know that, men and women in the military, they know that as well. Uh but I wanted to speak specifically to the to the Christian life, to the Christian men. Uh like like you just like you just said. And so, uh there were times when I was uh early on in the day, I was I was working together with the team, but after the second plane hit, we all scattered and I was with two other guys up in the North Tower. We had gone up in the tower and at through a course of circumstances, I was separated from them. I was helping some other people get out and we were separated and I didn't have any way to communicate with them. And I noticed at that point, this is before either tower collapsed, that I was uh I was alone. And when I was alone, I was timid, I was unsure, I was not very effective. And I spent a lot of the rest of my day looking for my guys, you know, my people. Um I went outside, I was looking for for my guys in the complex. The the first tower collapsed and and should have killed me. Uh and then the second tower collapsed uh not long after that, should have killed me. And I'm at this whole time I'm alone and I'm unsteady and I'm timid. And then I I encountered three other secret service agents after the second tower collapsed. Uh we bumped into each other and um at that point, we were a team. We were a squad, we were a fire team, they would say in the military. And um I spent the rest of my day with them. And for the rest of my day, I was I was, as I like to say, rock steady and ready. Uh I was effective, I was confident, I had courage and because I was feeding off shoulder to shoulder with my brother to my left and my brother to my right. And um and as we encountered one problem after another, the four of us, you know what, each one of us had different skills, talents and abilities that we were bringing to the fight. Excuse me. that we were bringing to the fight. And um and so I relate that to the Christian life, to the Christian walk, especially for men. I mean, uh the lone wolf Christian, the lone wolf Christian guy who's just trying to trying to white knuckle it and get through and do some good, but also lead his family and also advance in the workplace and just grind it out by themselves. It doesn't end well, Mark, and you and I you and I have seen it. Um I I compare it to a guy running on a treadmill, like put it at 10 or 12 miles an hour on a treadmill. That person is running hard and going nowhere. No. Going nowhere. And only only only two things happen to that guy who's on the on the treadmill running at 12 miles an hour. He either crashes and burns and gets spit off the back and you know, crashes and burns and wrecks his life metaphorically or uh or he taps out and he quits. and he just hits stops, gets off the gets off the run and and never gets back in the fight. Um and so I encourage men, you can't you can't be that guy. You're either going to crash and burn or you're going to tap out and quit and walk away from the things that are most important to you. So you got to get shoulder to shoulder with other men.

Mark Turman: [00:23:57] Yeah. Yeah, such a great reminder. Uh I wonder, Darren, before we take a break, if if you could just speak a word into I I just imagine a guy listening to this podcast on his way down the highway heading into work and thinking to himself, I don't have those people. I don't have those guys in my life. I don't have my guys. What would be the first step you would tell him to take?

Darin Kinder: [00:24:22] Uh I I've go to the Lord in prayer and say, Lord, open my eyes to to it may be someone in in my past that I that I need to reconnect with. It may be someone somebody who lives next door or somebody that you've met at church or a guy in the office that you know you have some connection to. Ask the Lord, say, Lord, reveal to me, open my eyes, uh present the opportunities and then give me the courage and the boldness to to to move forward and pursue. Uh pursue these opportunities and and and take that first step uh of initiation. There's no greater place in my opinion. There's no greater place to to start that journey, start that process than the local church. Uh because you know to some extent you're going to be shoulder to shoulder with with like-minded men. And um and we just we've gotten away from that and um and it's something that we have to get back to uh because times are only getting more difficult. But I would say go to the Lord, start in the local church.

Mark Turman: [00:25:15] Yeah, that's a good word. Well, we're going to take a take a quick break and step aside for a second. We'll be right back with more from Darren Kinder.

Speaker 3: [00:25:24] North Texas Giving Day is one of the biggest and best opportunities of the year to support Denison Forum and it's coming up on September 17th. This podcast is made possible fully through the generosity of donors to Denison Forum, people just like you. This year, our North Texas Giving Day goal is $420,000. Every gift helps equip more people to think biblically, live faithfully, and serve intentionally in today's culture. Every gift will be matched dollar for dollar through a $75,000 matching grant. That means your gift can have twice the impact while matching funds remain available. To give, visit denisonforum.org/northtexas. That's denisonforum.org/northtexas.

Mark Turman: [00:26:21] We're back talking with Darren Kinder as we remember, reflect and ask God to continue to use the experience of 9/11 25 years ago. We want to continue to remember and be uh grieving along with families and friends who continue to work their way through this. And Darren's written a great book called Bury Me in a Dirty Suit. We're going to get to the meaning of the title at the end. Um but we're going to continue our conversation with him. Darren, you talk about courage, um and spend several chapters actually in your story, uh trying to work through what is real courage? What's the opposite of fear? What did God teach you in those uh in those days of 9/11 about courage and fear?

Darin Kinder: [00:27:05] Yeah, I I've had a lot of time to to reflect on that because uh the tricky part is when people hear my story, they're like, wow, you know, you have you have a ton of courage or that sounds so brave. Well, I mean, Mark, that's just that's just rising to the occasion on one particular day and doing doing a good thing on repeat like I said earlier. Um what does what does a life of courage look like? What does a what does a life of biblical courage look like? And I like to say that courage uh is is a product of faith and the promises of God. So there's two there's two aspects aspects of it for me. Um courage is a faith and and and the promises of God. And and um one of the promises as I'm reading scriptures, I'm looking at promises and commands. Commands and whenever the God whenever God commands those in the Bible or commands us to do something difficult or challenging, he he almost always couples it with a promise. And one of those promises on on repeat consistently is I am with you. You know, I will not forsake you. I will not forget you. I will be with you always. And so I in the book it was fun to go through these, you know, uh whether whether it's Gideon, whether it's Moses, whether it's David, all these Joshua, all these challenges that these men faced. And the moment they were scared, the moment they were fearful because fear is real, uh the Lord reminded them on repeat, I am with you. And I will give you victory. I will sustain you. I will give you the words to say. Later when the spirit comes, the spirit's going to give us the words to say. And uh and then the famous Psalm, you know, uh even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will feel no fear no evil for you are with me. Your rod and your staff, they comfort me. So, that promise alone that the Lord is with me always, um is kind of like a nuclear reactor of courage in my guts, in in my soul that I that I rely on. And then um and then we got into the opposite of fear, which is, you know, fear is uh I see I see a lot of men, I see a lot of Christians living on fear, you know, making decisions based on fear. Um you know, fear of the unknown, fear of being exposed, fear of going for it and falling short, fear of humiliation, all these things. And uh and a lot of it is really unhealthy. And so if fear drives people to to to to uh unknown places, um what what is what is more powerful than fear? And so the, you know, the point in the book, the greater point is that the opposite of fear is love. Uh God's perfect love. God's perfect love cast out all fear. And I just like to go through uh in that in the book in those couple of chapters, all the ways uh that we can't even quantify, we can't even fully fathom how much God loves us. that the God who who spoke the universe into existence, the God who said, let there be light and there was light. The God who said who made the mountains and the seas, that God wants a relationship with each and every one of us. Uh he loves us unconditionally, is is faithful to us. The scriptures just page after page of his faithfulness to us. And um and so I just I I just focused on I chose to focus on in the book a few verses that that serve as I call them arrows, you know, arrows arrows of truth, arrows of reminding us of how much God loves us that we're not slaves of sin, uh that we can cry out to him, Abba Father, right? I mean these these beautiful verses that we're not given a spirit of timidity of fear, but of one of power, of love and of self-control. So on repeat these these promises from scripture that that God is with us and he loves us far more than you and I can even fathom.

Mark Turman: [00:30:24] Yeah, it's just so important. You know, get you get a sense of where scripture is so so significant in this. Uh having those verses in your life, knowing those promises from God, knowing his love and knowing, you know, because I think I think many people wonder, what would I have done if I was sitting in that moment like you were and as as you said, you wanted to take us there and your your story, your book does that so well. But I think many of us wonder, well, what if I'd been on that airplane? What if I had been uh in that building like you were? What would I have done? And just how scripture became so foundational, so important to working that out. Um Darren, another thing that I wanted to to bring up, it it just strikes me as uh I don't know that I would use the word providential, but it just sounds it just seems so so significant to me and I've been pondering this actually for a couple of decades that uh America's 250th anniversary is also the same year and the same season that we are marking the 25th anniversary of 9/11. Um I I've thought through this fairly uh fairly deep way and and just have wondered. And then when I was listening to your story, the conversation that you start and raise about the difference between a civilian and a citizen just struck me in a very profound way. Uh and is such an important word for us right now as a country, for us uh celebrating the 250th anniversary of our nation as well as marking this very, very important day of 9/11. Can you walk that out for us a little bit and what what came to you in terms of clarity about the difference between a civilian and a citizen because of 9/11?

Darin Kinder: [00:32:18] Sure, sure. That that conversation started for me several years ago. I was having a friend uh a conversation with my friend. I guess I I had used civilian and citizen interchangeably a couple of times. And he stopped me and corrected me, Mark. And he's like, you know what? Go I you got to understand, a civilian and a citizen are not the same thing. I said, tell me more. And so we had this conversation and then I just started to kind of take it further and look at it and later I said, you know, when it came time to write the book, I said, hey, I need to give you credit for this because this is your this is your your concept, your idea. And uh and what and I witnessed both on September 11th, 2001, you know. And so to get our terms straight just really quickly, a civilian, a civilian is obsessed with self. A civilian is obsessed with their own safety and comfort. A civilian uh sees people and opportunities as a means to an end. Uh how they're going to better themselves or move their selves along and maybe their family along, but it's it's kind of very inward focused. That's what a civilian does and a civilian's going to look out for themselves. Uh first and foremost above all things. Uh but we're called to be citizens. You know, a citizen is different. A citizen builds, uh a citizen invests, a citizen cultivates relationships. I say in the book that a citizen focuses primarily on two things. One inward on a on a healthy, thriving family and then outward into their community. You know, they give their time, their resources, uh their skills and their abilities for something greater than themselves. You know, they they step forward. And so, um I mean, I saw citizens, I I saw both, but I mean, I saw I saw citizens of New York on September 11th. I I say all the time that I witnessed, I had a front row seat to evil on September 11th, but I also saw the best of America on September 11th. I mean, I saw people pouring out of bodegas and and convenience stores and and pharmacies full of medical supplies, not to not not looting to go home and hoard it for themselves, but to literally get on a knee and tend to people's wounds, right? I saw people uh bringing water. I saw, you know, I helped carry a person, put them in a shopping cart and this guy pushed this this wounded person in a shopping cart down the street to an ambulance. Just one after another. We talked about the 9/11 boat lift with 600 uh you know, men and women of the sea in some capacity uh contributing to evacuate 500,000. And um and so I I I think it's really important and Teddy Roosevelt in some of his writings post- presidency makes some really some really good perspective on that. He says that a uh that that a silliness a citizen must have a willingness to work and the ability, the desire to fight a righteous fight. And I I just love that. That's that's what a citizen is. Now, um but but we as Christians need to lay on top of that something even more significant and that's being called as a citizen of heaven. You know, that that that is even a higher calling. So, uh when I'm talking to faith-based groups, I talk to corporate and and secular groups and associations, but also all kinds of faith groups. And when I'm talking to faith groups, you know, I make that designation that, hey, let's be a citizen of this great nation, this great republic that's been around for 250 years. Uh not a civilian. Don't settle on being a civilian. Let's be a citizen, but remember on top of that, our devotion, we are we are followers of the one true God. Uh we're fierce followers of of Jesus Christ. What does it look like to be um uh a citizen of heaven? And and when that's rightly related, you know, God, country, family, God, family, country, whatever that is, but when it starts with the Lord. And so I've come I've come to this basic conclusion. How do I as a citizen of this Republic, how do I serve, how do I fight for my nation? I do that by serving my Lord. I I do that by serving my by serving my Lord, in effect, then I'm going to uh be fighting for and being a positive net positive good to my nation.

Mark Turman: [00:36:02] Yeah. Yeah, and like I said, those two things go together and um you know, the best citizens of heaven make the best citizens of any nation. And I think that's just a really good call out for us in a in a time of tribalism and a lot of partisanship. I think it's a really good reminder uh that we are all Americans and that we need to be helping each other. Uh and kind of as you said, the the the story of the good Samaritan writ large, right? In a very profound situation. Um Darren, I don't want to take all of the thunder out of your story for those that may want to pick it up as an audible book or or read it uh for themselves in whatever form they choose. But uh there is one moment where you say there is one thing on that day that you wish you hadn't done. Um this this story is obviously very profound for you personally, but also for uh the people who are most important to you, your wife Heather, uh and your family. Talk a minute about uh the one thing that you wish you hadn't done on that day.

Darin Kinder: [00:37:07] Yeah, and I've been corrected on that by by many uh especially women. They're like, you need to stop thinking that way. But um you know, writing this story brought a lot of a lot of healing like I alluded to earlier. Um by far the most challenging part to write was um the chapter or so about my wife's experience. And so, um before just as a background, before the two towers collapsed, uh I called I called my wife from a pay phone in the lobby of the World Trade Center because I didn't have my phone. I didn't have I didn't have a we had pagers back then. I'd lost all of that. And I called my wife from a pay phone. I called her collect, which, you know, blows my kids' mind when I'm trying to explain what that means. Yeah. And um anyways, I told her very quickly that I was in the lobby of the World Trade Center. I was helping people get out, that I would see her soon. I love you, right? We hung up. And uh what she didn't know is that as soon as I hung up the phone, uh I I left the complex because I was alone at that point and I needed to find my guys. We talked about that. And so I went outside the complex and uh 13 minutes later, I hear that metal on metal screeching sound and Tower 2 buckles and collapses. And I know Mark it was 13 minutes because I have the phone record from the collect call. Uh and the last thing I had said 13 minutes earlier to my wife was, I'm in the lobby of the World Trade Center. And um yeah, so she just assumed I was dead and in that 13 minutes she had called family members and all of her friends and all of them are watching that first collapse thinking, he's in there, he's gone. And I regret that. I I regret that I put her through that because uh that was at um I believe 10:01 is the is the first collapse if I have that quick uh correct. Um I would not be able to communicate with her until about sometime maybe about 3:00 in the afternoon. I I I I saw a firefighter. We were out in the street, we were fighting fires and and there was a firefighter talking on a cell phone and it was the only cell phone I had seen working that entire day and uh and I was able to call her. But when I called her, she wasn't home. Um she had left our apartment in Hoboken, New Jersey. She had the day off that day and she had walked 10 blocks down to the bottom of town to the pier and the pier stood right across from the World Trade Center and she watched just the rubble burn and she says as she as she would tell me that she just sat on that pier and and cried and lamented and asked God what she was going to do with the rest of her life. And um yeah, just a a powerful, powerful moment. Um she got the message from me when she got home, you know, an hour or two later. Yeah. Uh on the old on the old school answering machine. And um and then our reunion uh our reunion was something else.

Mark Turman: [00:39:58] Yeah, I can imagine. It's just it's just so important for us to remember that it was not just those people that were in Manhattan that day, but all of the networks of their families, their friends, people uh literally spread across the nation, across the city, across the world. Um and as we come to this anniversary, uh we ought to be praying for them and for just the ongoing healing. Even 25 years later, it's still very profound. Um and but to that point, um how will you be marking this 25th anniversary?

Darin Kinder: [00:40:39] It's a great uh it's a great question. Um you know, I'm I'm the public speaking and keynote addresses and speaking is is my uh is my primary uh job now as I uh as I retired from the Secret Service just over a year ago after doing 25 years with the Secret Service. So, uh this year I'll be actually in Washington State uh speaking at a large event on the evening of. It's kind of a a huge community, the whole city is coming out for this uh 9/11 remembrance of that. The day before, uh I'll be doing an event. Um I think that's going to work out. Uh I'll be doing an event in Washington DC. Um another, you know, commemorative event. And somewhere in there, yeah, I've got to find time to um to slow down, take a breath and and reflect and have my own uh memories. It'll be it'll be extremely, extremely difficult. Um and unfortunately because of travel, um I'll I'll I'll spend a lot of time alone, which that's a double-edged sword. It'll be good uh time to reflect and pray on it. Uh but also, yeah, I have a feeling I'll be facetiming my wife and some other brothers in my life uh help me walk me through that.

Mark Turman: [00:41:50] Yeah, and that's a kind of a great setup for what I wanted to ask next, which is after uh the the aftermath, the next couple of weeks, months, even a couple of years that you talk about uh following 9/11, uh that there was a sense of lostness or purpose lost in your life. Uh talk about that a little bit and how God has brought you to a place of clear purpose uh in the aftermath of 9/11.

Darin Kinder: [00:42:18] Yeah, I just, you know, it wasn't a pretty story. It was September 12th. I I I said to the Lord, I want you to use me, use me for the rest of your rest of my days for your purpose. Uh I should have died three times, but you spared me. Obviously for a reason, right? Um I never asked why 3,000 people perished and I didn't. I I never felt entitled to that to that answer, but I did want to know what my purpose was. Okay, you must have saved me for a mission. So what is it? And really what followed after that was five years of silence. I mean, I prayed on repeat, Lord, show me my mission, show me my purpose. Why did you spare me? And um I just really the Lord's timing is always perfect. And uh and that was a process for me. I was a kind of a forging process for me and it was a struggle. I mean, I was uh I thought about quitting the secret service, gosh, almost every day. Uh my my wife, I was I was irritable and like you said, purpose, I like purpose lost is kind of the disease that I call it. And um and then the Lord just um he started putting something on my heart and that was I'm going to use you to minister to men. Like this this is I I've trained you up as a teacher because I was a teacher. I've trained you up with a warrior spirit uh as a secret service agent. Uh you you're you're you're equipped, you have a certain set of skills to to to apply to the world that will relate to men, that men will be interested in. And I've given you this traumatic, huge experience and all of these things, I'm going to use you the rest of your days uh to to minister to men in some capacity. And so that just started, I mean, that just took this huge relief off my back and uh and then I had a son. And then I had another son, and then I had another son. We have four sons. And so it just became very clear and obvious to me that uh that was my that was one of my that was my probably my primary goal and mission in life was was to do that, was to minister to men, uh to to call them off of the sidelines, to get them in the fight, to fight the good fight of faith as as uh as Paul says. And um and that would take different that would take a lot of different roles and manifestations over the years, but that's been the steady drum beat of my life for the last uh gosh, uh 20 years.

Mark Turman: [00:44:32] Yeah, which kind of uh lays the foundation for the title of this book, Bury me in a dirty suit. Where in the world did you come up with that title?

Darin Kinder: [00:44:42] Well, it's written, I had it written in the book uh two different spaces places. The book had a different title because remember, I wrote this in my head for 10 years. And I had a title for it and uh when uh when my editor read the book uh cover to cover for the first time, she made her suggestions and so forth. And at the end she said, you know what? I want to propose a different title. And I said, you're crazy. I've got the title of this book. I know what I'm doing. I'm the author. And uh and she said, no, how about bury me in a dirty suit? And it just I was like, oh yeah, that's good. And I had already written it because that's the promise, it's part of the promise that I uh that I made to the Lord. So you want me to tell you how the the back story of how that came?

Mark Turman: [00:45:25] Yeah, please do. Yeah.

Darin Kinder: [00:45:26] Yeah. So at the end of my day, um myself and the three other secret service agents, we we finally left the scene about 4 o'clock or so and we drove 30 blocks north in Manhattan. We finally found out where all the other secret service agents had rendezvoused. And uh so as I write in the book, I just we entered this huge room um on right on Chelsea Piers on the on the Hudson River. And to my right was a large group of agents and they they looked just like we did, man. They were beaten and bloodied and haggard and I mean, my shoes were melted and malformed, my pants were three or four inches shorter because they kept catching fire. They we were beaten and bloodied and and so were they. And uh remember we're all wearing suits because we had these boring meetings that day. And then on the other side of the room was a smaller group of people uh that I worked with. And I don't say this disparagingly to to beat anyone over the head, but um they were in clean suits. You know, they they were spotless, their shoes were shiny, their hair was perfect, whatever. And as I as I write in the book, courage is a choice. And I I just couldn't I couldn't get that dichotomy out of my mind. There was there was a large group over here, dirty suits and there was a smaller group over here, clean suits. And um the next day, I'm I'm on the couch in Hoboken, New Jersey with my wife and we're praying and we're lamenting and we're trying to figure out what does all this mean? And I couldn't get that that image was just emblazoned in my mind. And I said to the Lord, I said, Lord, um you know, I'm going to spend the rest of my days. I I should have died three times. I'm going to spend the rest of my days getting my suit dirty metaphorically for you. Uh and as I and as uh the the title of the book is from the end of that prayer. It just rolled off my tongue. I said, Lord, when you call me home, when I punch out of this world and into the next, bury me in a dirty suit. And um and so that becomes the the steady drum beat uh of my life. And so now, uh I use that to uh equip and encourage especially uh believers, non-believers, uh but especially men as well, to to get in the fight, you know, I I like to say that this world is full of problems. You and I were created to be the solution for at least one. Yeah. Um you know, each one of us is a masterpiece. Ephesians 2:10 makes it very clear, created uniquely by God, by our creator, and our creator assigns our purpose. We don't choose our purpose from a drop-down menu. The create that's assigned by the creator. And um and so I just I just feel like there's there's we build healthy healthy homes, we protect our family, we we serve, we protect our our our family, we cultivate, we build relationships and and so forth. We provide for our family. Uh that's number one, but outside of that, man, this world is is full of problems, drug addiction, homelessness, um child sex trafficking, domestic violence, whatever it may be. I could go on and on. Hey, men, especially, what if you were designed and equipped, you were purposefully equipped to be part of the solution for that problem. What is it? And then, you know, the book gets into how do you discern that and how do you just spend the rest of your days getting after it?

Mark Turman: [00:48:27] Yeah, yeah, such a good word. Darren, thank you. Uh the book is called Bury Me in a Dirty Suit. Looks just like this. You can find it at all the major book providers. Uh Darren, tell us where people can follow your ministry. Uh if they want to invite you to speak or connect with you in other ways, where can they do that?

Darin Kinder: [00:48:46] Sure, you can you can find me on on social media, Facebook and Instagram. I'm at Darren Kinder. I I spell it correctly with one R and an I. So D A R I N Kinder. And um but my website's is uh fierce-faith.com. So that's fierce-faith.com. That's my kind of my faith-based side on the corporate world and uh for associations and and things like that. Uh you can find me at darrenkinder.com. Uh either one of those there will will bring you straight to me and we'll uh we'll have a conversation and get in the fight together.

Mark Turman: [00:49:18] All right, sounds good. We'll put all of that in our show notes as well. Uh I want to thank you again for sharing your story. Thank you for uh being uh Christ's servant in that moment and in the ways that you've continued and will continue to do that uh as you fight the good fight. I want to also thank our listeners for joining us today. And uh if you want more resources, you can find that at Denison Forum.org. And uh thank you again for your prayers as well as your financial support. Your donations help our ministry uh to provide biblical truth and biblical clarity uh with no paywall, with no cost, just as free biblical digital resources to others. And again, you can find that at Denison Forum.org. I want to thank our producers, uh Aubrey Kerr, Connor Jones and our friends at Sound of a Rose Studio. They help us with post-production and we're grateful for them. And again, you can find details about all those things in the show notes. We'll see you next time on Faith and Clarity. God bless you.