Should We Be Worried About Data Centers? & Why Is Everything So Expensive? | Ep. 79

Micah Tomasella: [00:00:05] Hi, I'm Micah Tomasella.

Josh Miller: [00:00:07] And I'm Josh Miller.

Micah Tomasella: [00:00:08] And this is Culture Brief, a Denison Forum podcast where we're navigating the constant stream of top stories and news, politics, sports, pop culture, and technology. And we're doing it all, and I mean all, from a Christian perspective. Hello, Josh. Want to give us a rundown of what we'll be talking about today?

Josh Miller: [00:00:25] Oh, I would love to. Well, Connor made the mistake of leaving us in charge today.

Micah Tomasella: [00:00:28] Big mistake.

Josh Miller: [00:00:29] So buckle up, everybody. It's going to be a good one. We're going to do a deep dive into two questions a lot of people are asking right now. It's just it's been in the news, in conversations. The two questions are, first, should we be should we be worried about data centers? And the second one is, why is everything so expensive? Micah, why is everything so expensive?

Micah Tomasella: [00:00:50] Well, let's jump into the brief. So, what we're going to do is we're going to talk about data centers first. Josh is going to jump into his story about inflation and why things are so expensive. We're going to take more concentrated time today to dive deeply into these two stories. So bear with us, but we do think this is going to be a great conversation. So I'm calling this segment, Josh, Data Centers with Micah. Should we be worried? Now, is that a documentary you'd watch?

Josh Miller: [00:01:18] That's a great title. I like it. Nice work.

Micah Tomasella: [00:01:20] Where did I get that? Where did I come up with that? No, I mean, uh, it's it's time for another installment, I would say, of random subject circulating in the news with Micah. You've seen us tackle tariffs over the years, rare earth minerals and a handful of other topics that seem to pop up everywhere. Today, data centers. Okay? If you've paid attention to the news over the past year, you probably noticed that data centers seem to be everywhere. One week, it's Microsoft. The next week, it's OpenAI. Then, Nvidia, then a rural town that's fighting against a billion dollar AI project, right? It really is, uh, man versus machine. It's it's people revolting against the man is what it feels like. And so here in North Texas, we've seen that a lot recently. Jensen Huang, who runs Nvidia, was just in Fort Worth celebrating the new Nvidia manufacturing facility, okay? And while at the same time, communities across the country have been debating whether these massive AI data centers should even be allowed in their own backyards, right? It's kind of like, um, the concept of, do I really want, uh, large electrical poles and electrical lines running through my backyard? Do I want that large facility right across the street from where I live, right? It's the fear of the unknown, right? But it's, uh, farmers are selling out, people are selling their lands, or their land, and then everybody's trying to build these data centers right now. And I'll admit something, Josh. I realized recently that while I kept hearing little bits and pieces about this, I didn't know very much about the inner workings of this issue because I was in a conversation last week, talking to a buddy, and he kind of asked me what I thought about these data centers. And I, I started to talk and then 30 seconds in, I was like, I don't really know enough about this. I knew the headlines, but I hadn't stepped back and said, what's really going on here? So I did what I always do. It's time for a deep dive. Should we be excited about this? Should we be worried about this? Or is the answer somewhat in the middle? So, Josh, what are your, what are your initial thoughts about data centers as all of the sudden here in the last year, it's all anyone's talking about.

Josh Miller: [00:03:34] Yeah, I've seen the same thing here where just people it's all over the place. Uh, and it seems like everything has been, uh, villainized pretty quickly. And I haven't known whether or not that sort of criticism towards the data centers are fair or just people afraid because they don't know about how it's working or what's happening there. But so much noise, so much conversation. So I've seen all of that happen. But the other thing I've seen is this is actually showing up in my, uh, neighborhoods, in my area of town. Actually, on the way here, I drove by a pretty new, uh, data center that's, uh, a quarter mile from my house now. And when it popped up, I'm like, what is this thing? High security around it, like strong gated fences around it with like. Barbed wire. Yeah, it's not barbed wire, but heavy like curved metal bars over the top to keep people from climbing in there. I'm like, what is this thing? No signage. I'm like, had to go do some digging to find out that is a data center. A new one went up just a half mile down the street from that one that just opened up in the past six months. So I've seen it online and then I also had this sort of late realization that, oh, this is actually in my backyard as well. Uh, but I don't, I don't know whether I should be concerned about it or not. But I did do some, uh, digging as well just to see is what I'm seeing actually real in terms of this popping up as much as it is and found out in Texas, there are 335 data centers right now in Texas, which seems like a lot, but there are 248 planned to be built in the state moving forward. So it's we're going to almost double. Uh, 86 of the 248, 86 of the 248 are planned in North Texas. So in our area of the state, not just Texas is a big place, but in our North Texas region, 86 are planned to be built. So this is, a third of them. Yeah, there are a lot being built, but I don't know, should we be concerned? Uh, are the the fears real? I think that's a worthwhile conversation.

Micah Tomasella: [00:05:35] Well, let's jump into it. So I'm, I'm going to describe what is a data center. We're going to get on the same page about that. And I'm going to give a few pros and cons of what are the arguments for it, what are the arguments against it, and then what can we learn through this? How can we trust God through this process of trying to figure out, should we be fearful of this or not? So what exactly is a data center? Let's start with the basics because I think this helps explain, um, why the conversation matters. The data center is essentially a giant warehouse filled with computers. Every Google search, every Netflix movie, every photo you stored in the cloud, every chat GPT prompt, and increasingly every AI tool runs through these facilities. This data has to be somewhere. This cloud that we talk about. Well, it has to be stored somewhere. The difference today is AI, right? So before I mentioned, um, because we had seen some data centers specifically for meta pop up a couple years ago. Like I'm thinking about that, right? Like meta was, you know, building these large facilities, but now with AI and how it's rapidly progressing, it feels like data centers is also progressing along with it. So, uh, we've talked about before in the podcast, just the general sentiment here in America on AI, it's all happening so quickly. People are either saying it's it's it's going to be the best thing ever or it's going to take all the jobs, it's going to ruin everything. Just alongside that, you might look out your window and see a data center. It seems to be growing with the problem.

Josh Miller: [00:06:59] It's also as an adjacent conversation is why you're seeing issues around chip shortages, you know, shortages of RAM, computers getting more expensive. It's because of these data centers going up that are full of servers, computers, uh, that are consuming all of these chips and things that would normally be used for consumer use.

Micah Tomasella: [00:07:18] It's true. It's true. And so training and running AI models requires exponentially more computing power than the traditional internet services that we're used to. That means companies like Microsoft, OpenAI, um, Claude, Meta, Amazon, Google, they're racing to build, well, Anthropic technically, sorry, are racing to build bigger and more powerful data centers than we've ever seen before. So, um, the Nvidia CEO, Jensen Huang, when he was here in Fort Worth, has compared the AI infrastructure to electricity and the internet itself, arguing that every industry will eventually depend on it. His message is straightforward. AI is going to transform healthcare, manufacturing, education, transportation, and national defense. And America needs to build this infrastructure now in order to be able to support it. If every industry is going to eventually be connected to it, like think about the year 2000 and just internet in general. If every industry eventually is going to be built on AI or touching AI, then that argument does make sense to a certain extent. So that's why you're seeing billions of dollars flowing into these projects all across the country. So now, Josh, let's dive into the strongest arguments on each side and talk about it for a minute. So I'm going to give a few pros, the case for data centers. Again, I'm just going to put this down the middle and there are, uh, there there is strong credence to all of these arguments as we try to formulate how we should feel about data centers now that we actually understand what a data center is, why it's needed, why it's a big deal. Pro one, if AI is the future, we need somewhere to run it, which I kind of just touched on. This is probably the strongest argument that I see supporters consistently make. It's maybe not the one that I see the most, but it's the one that I see, it's it's a strong argument that's consistently made. Every prompt in whatever your go-to AI model is, whether if we're talking about Grok, Claude, Chat GPT, every AI image, every breakthrough in medical research, every autonomous vehicle, and potentially the countless future technologies we're talking about. Like there's things that are in the works that I don't think our minds can even fathom yet that AI has allowed, you know, to happen. All require an um, unfathomable amount of computing power.

Josh Miller: [00:09:31] Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like the to the electricity analogy you just used. If you want electricity in your home, you need a power plant somewhere to be generating the power to get the electricity. And so this is sort of a similar situation. If you want to use AI and use it at scale, you need a certain amount of data centers to supply the compute power for it to be effective.

Micah Tomasella: [00:09:48] And if you want to keep sending photos of your pantry to chat GPT because you don't want to go to the grocery store and say, what can I whip up with this? If you want to keep asking those questions.

Josh Miller: [00:09:59] Landscaping ideas for your yard.

Micah Tomasella: [01:00:02] Chat, what do you think of my outfit today? Like, whatever, right? It's like, if you want to keep asking those questions, well, it's got to get stored somewhere. Uh, you know, so that's, that's a part of it, right? So that's why Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang has repeatedly compared AI infrastructure to electricity, the internet. His argument is that AI will become foundational to every industry, like I've talked about. And if America wants to remain the global leader in technology, right now there's a big race and you know, we've talked about this, China versus the US on who's going to be the global leader in AI. And every major technological advance in recent history, America has led the way. Well, um, a lot of the leading AI voices are saying, if we try to restrict all these data centers, um, then how is America going to, uh, rule the world in this or be first in this, right? They want to be, America wants to be a global leader in this technology. So the basic argument's simple. If AI is the future, um, I think to a certain extent, that's not a crazy argument. Yep. If it's the future, data centers are the roads and the power plants that make that future possible. So that's the first pro. Second pro, they can bring significant economic benefits, right? So supporters also point to just the economic impact. Many of these projects represent hundreds of millions, even billions of dollars in private investment. They create construction jobs, expand the local tax base, and often lead to improvements in things like roads, utilities, and other infrastructure. Some communities have even, so, you know, this is the thing about some of these data centers, they're kind of sneaky popping up. So I do think that there's a positive to people actually, like, uh, people in a county, in a town wanting to take control over this and actually negotiate the terms, right? So there was an example recently that I was reading, um, Meta's project in Richland Parish, Louisiana, where the company agreed to major infrastructure investments that generated substantial new revenue for local schools, right? So it's like, okay, if this is going to come in, you got to kick something back to us to help the community that you're putting this data center in. So supporters would say that if these projects are negotiated well, they don't just benefit the tech companies, they can benefit entire communities.

Josh Miller: [01:02:12] And I think that's the important distinction. Yeah, if if they are done well, they can be beneficial to the local community. I think I'm assuming you'll get to this in the cons. If not done well, all of the benefits could go elsewhere and the local community doesn't benefit. And so there is not all of these are the same, which I think is an important thing to note in all of this. These are being done and negotiated and built a lot of different ways in a lot of different types of places with a lot of different types of impacts. But I think that's a great point to say that when done well and when transparently done and all of the things associated with that, the that can have, has the possibility to have an a positive impact on the community, but that that's not always the case.

Micah Tomasella: [01:02:53] It's a big if. What I would say is is, you know, you gave the stat earlier, which I didn't even know, the 335 already operating data centers in Texas. I would say a lot of those just kind of popped up. Because they weren't as big of a deal. And I think that that was probably the goal of these companies. The more people you involve, the more log jams, the more bureaucracy you experience, right?

Josh Miller: [01:03:13] And maybe done in a big city like DFW, maybe the impact is not as noticeable as opposed to when this is done in a rural small town.

Micah Tomasella: [01:03:18] But in that small town in West Texas, that changes everything for them. All right. My third pro as I'm breezing through this. The industry says it's learning from its mistakes. I keep talking about, um, you know, Jensen Huang, but I saw this example too. One thing I found interesting is that even more supporters acknowledge some of the earlier criticism, some of this criticism so far was fair, it is fair, but they also argue the industry is changing with it, right? So if these if these data centers need to happen, then these companies, these people need to listen to the people in these communities that are complaining about what their problems are. Many newer facilities are using closed loop cooling technologies and systems that recycle much of the water. We've been talking about, where's all this water going to come from in a place like Texas where there's frequent droughts. We've already had some concerns about water in Texas even before data centers. Invest in quieter operations and in some cases build dedicated power generation rather than placing all the demand on the local grid. So, you know, what is the solution there? So in other words, supporters could argue and would argue are that the goal isn't simply to build more data centers, but it's to build better ones. And so I do believe if we start seeing improvements in that area of, okay, we're recycling water, we're not just going to suck from the local power grid. We're actually going to create something sustainable within the data center that's not going to drive everyone's electricity bills up, talking about what your subject is going to be on how things are seeming to be less affordable day after day. So that's that's the last con there.

Josh Miller: [01:04:46] All right. Yeah, I think the again going back to the power uh power plant analogy, electricity analogy, it's very similar. Our first power generation, power plants were incredibly inefficient, incredibly polluting, terrible. Over time, the technology does improve, get more efficient, get less destructive, but that also doesn't necessarily happen without some pressure on these companies to get better because there's not always profit associated with being less destructive to the environment or, you know, being selfish in in power usage or whatever else. And so I think appropriate accountability on these is is typically effective in helping bring change.

Micah Tomasella: [01:05:24] Oh my goodness. Yes, absolutely. And hopefully that's what we see. All right, so let me give three quick cons, the case against data centers. There's some strong cons here too. Con number one, many communities feel like these projects are happening to them instead of with them, which I kind of touched on earlier. Interestingly, this may be the biggest criticism I saw as I was doing research on this. Most opponents aren't saying, we hate AI, we don't use AI. That's not really what they're saying. They're saying, we deserve a seat at the table if you're going to stick this monstrosity of a of a facility right next to our doorsteps where we can see from our windows, well, we deserve a seat at the table. So Joe Nocera's recent article in the Free Press was really interesting because he highlights examples where developers quietly purchased land, negotiations happened then behind closed doors. Local official, uh, officials in those areas in these small towns would sign NDAs, they would sign the non-disclosure agreements, and residents didn't fully understand what was happening until the major decisions had already been made. There already have been examples of this, like we were trying to touch on earlier. Whether every example is fair or not, it's easy, it's easy to understand why that type of thing definitely creates distrust. And I know for a fact that's why there's already 340 up and running because they were able to skip past some of the more difficult parts of actually having to deal with the people that live in the communities that these data centers are going in. That is a very fair con in my opinion.

Josh Miller: [01:06:52] Yeah, I it's, uh, I think it's, uh, fair to say you wouldn't love that showing up in your backyard without you knowing it. Uh, I don't think that's the way all of these are happening either. And so I think we could go to the other extreme and say that everything is under the table or everything is secretive. Yeah, and that's not true either. Some of this is probably common. But that's where it can be hard to distinguish sometimes between what is what is the right way, what's the wrong way, what type of visibility, transparency, notification should be happening in this process, uh, and are are even the concerns valid? Yeah, I can notify you, but if they're sort of fearmongering around it, that may not be all true as well. There's some some give and take there.

Micah Tomasella: [01:07:28] Well, and that's why I named this section, should we be worried at the end, right? Is, okay, we're going to talk through all these pros and cons. I don't have a perfect answer for you today. Neither does Josh. But should we be worried as followers of Christ? Okay, we're about to get that. Get to that. All right. Con number two, these facilities use a lot of electricity and water. This is probably the concern you've heard the most in terms of where's the water going to come from? My electricity bills are already high. It's the end of July. I just, I just saw my bill for this past month. It's very high, okay? Modern data centers require enormous amounts of electricity. While some companies are building their own power generation, others are still heavily relying on the current infrastructure, right? And these grids have to be built to handle all of the electricity needs in that area. Then there's the water part, okay? The industry points out that newer cooling systems are recycling much of the water, like we talked about, and that's true. But critics respond that in drought prone regions, which Texas has a lot of, every large industrial projects does deserve that careful scrutiny of, okay, do we have enough water for the next five years? Okay, yeah, maybe. What about 10, 20, 30 years from now? I actually think both sides have a point here. The technology is improving, but there's still massive facilities that require significant resources.

Josh Miller: [01:08:47] Yeah, I think that's true. I'm really hopeful for innovation here to help solve some of these problems, but the question is how fast and how many, what I don't know is of of the ones I listed, you know, for example in Texas about to be built, I couldn't tell you how many are of the super efficient, uh, you know, type that aren't using a lot of water or not. And I'm not sure how much of that is publicized.

Micah Tomasella: [01:09:07] They should ask AI how they can build these more efficiently and maybe AI would give them a good answer.

Josh Miller: [01:09:13] Perfect.

Micah Tomasella: [01:09:15] All right, con number three, do communities get enough in return? That's a really big con and question right now. This is another question that comes up I've seen a lot. One construction, like, so, sorry, once construction is finished, many data centers employ relatively few permanent workers compared to a traditional manufacturing plant, right? So once it's built, the long-term jobs right now in these data centers are not as many as people would think or as many as some of them on the pro side would say. Critics ask whether the long-term economic benefits truly do justify the land use, like, okay, we have a lot of short-term labor in this area right now.

Josh Miller: [01:09:53] Yeah, because you're saying it takes a lot of labor to actually build the facility itself.

Micah Tomasella: [01:09:56] To build it itself, but long-term staffing the facility is less. The long-term jobs of, oh, can somebody in this community have a long-term career that they can feed their family with and provide for their family with? That's a different question, right? So we have to figure out are the long-term benefits truly justifying the land use, the infrastructure demands, and the environmental footprint. So supporters are pushing back by saying that's the wrong comparison. They're arguing data centers are infrastructure, not factories. We don't, we don't often judge like highways or power plants by how many people they employ, okay, like now, because they're so normal to us, but we judge them by, uh, you know, are there potholes? What value do they create? Like, does this make my life easier for, you know? So again, I, I, I think it's a fair discussion to have. So those are the three pros and cons that I see most used. But let me get into the spiritual application here. The more I read about this issue, Josh, the less I think it's really about a debate over whether America should build data centers. I think it's going to happen. I don't think there's any way to get in the way of that. I think, uh, the government and the richest, most powerful people in the world, all of the investments, they're going towards building these data centers right now. And the more we as Americans use AI, the more need there is for data centers to be built. It it's it's almost inevitable in that point. So it seems to me, the debate hinges more on how we build them. So most people I read, whether they're supportive or skeptical, agreed that AI is not going away. The disagreement's over whether companies are being transparent with local communities, all that stuff. So as Christians, I really do think that it's a healthy way to approach almost any new technology. There's, there's a healthier way to to do it. So let's apply this to data centers or any new technology. We've been talking a lot about AI, its rapid rise, what we should use it for, what we shouldn't use it for. As a ministry, we're a digital content ministry here at Denison Ministries. We have a very specific framework on how AI gets used because at the end of the day, AI cannot be human. It cannot have a soul. It cannot have a relationship with God. There is a genuineness that we refuse to ever lose as a ministry as we create our content, right? It's something, it's questions that every company, every person is having to answer. What line am I going to draw in the sand? So the Bible doesn't tell us to fear innovation. Throughout history, people have developed new tools, new industries, new ways of improving life. Those things can be and are tremendous gifts from God. He created each of us uniquely, gifted us, placed us sovereignly exactly where we are to make an impact, to make a difference, to make the world a better place. But scripture does consistently remind us that how we pursue progress does matter. Proverbs 13, uh, sorry, Proverbs 11:3 says, the integrity of the upright guides them, but the crookedness of the treacherous destroys them. Let me read it again. The integrity of the upright guides them, but the crookedness of the treacherous destroys them. Whether we're talking AI, data centers, whatever comes next, more will come. Integrity and honesty and wisdom should never be sacrificed in the name of efficiency or in the name of profit. I do think it gets sacrificed a lot. I don't think I'm saying something we don't all know. But as far as from our perspective as believers, innovation, I believe is a good thing. Stewardship is also a good thing. It's a great thing. And those two ideas don't have to compete with each other. They will, but as a believer, I think we can hold both with a good amount of weight and say, how do we see both here take place? Maybe that's the takeaway, right? Rather than asking, are data centers good or bad? Perhaps the better question is, are we developing this technology in a way that reflects wisdom, that reflects integrity, and genuine care for our neighbors, rather than just trying to see how it affects the bottom line. I think that's a question Christians should continue asking long after this particular debate fades from the headlines and it becomes another debate. So those are just some important things to take note of.

Josh Miller: [02:04:10] That's a great word, Micah. And I think it's important for us to realize as well that everything that we consume and every tool we use has a cost. And so on one end, we we what we can't do is say, man, I want to use AI and all the things, let's advance, advance, advance and not also address the cost of achieving that. And so, uh, there is a, I think this is an important conversation for us to understand that, hey, we want to see all the pros, we also have to be really good stewards of understanding the cons and what that takes and making sure we're taking care of people well in that.

Micah Tomasella: [02:04:40] Totally. Yep. Thanks.

Josh Miller: [02:04:41] Good stuff. Uh, well, let me turn us to our next question that we're seeing people ask right now. I don't know for you, this has come up in a lot of conversations or a lot of kind of side comments with friends over the past couple years. You see it on the news, but that question is, why is everything so expensive? And so I want to dive into that a little bit today. I thought it would be kind of fun to, uh, kind of set the the stakes for, is that even true? Is that are we just feeling that? Is that accurate? And so I did did a little bit of research and and looked at the cost difference between when Culture Brief launched, which was January 2025. So it's been a little over a year and a half. Uh, how what what the cost was then at the launch of Culture Brief a year and a half ago and the cost today and how much that has increased. So let me walk you through a few of these to see what you think. So, uh, so so gas, for example, uh, back when Culture Brief launched was, uh, $3.21. Today, about $4.10. 28% increase. This is national average, right? That's national average, and that has gone up and down dramatically. So it's kind of, you know, that's, uh, we'll we'll talk about the why here in a little bit, but as it stands right now, up almost 30%. Ground beef, $5.55 a pound back in January 2025. Now averaging 683. We got to get beef down. We do. We got to get the cost of beef down. 23% up in that time period. Electricity is up 11%. The average home price, the median home price is up 11%. Uh, the only thing going in the positive direction, I don't know if you remember when eggs were the big story. I don't know if we talked about this on Culture Brief. I remember it was like 10, 12 bucks at one point. Uh, like 2023. Yeah. So some good news, some good news for you, Micah. Eggs are down 57%. Amen. Eat your eggs. Amen. Yeah. Good source of protein. Have at it. Down from from 4.95 down to 2.14. So that's the only positive one I have here. The last one and probably and by far the most, uh, worrisome stat I have here to share today is that coffee up from $7.2 a pound up to 9.46 a pound, 35% increase. It's just too far. It's too much. I can handle all the others, but that one, how are we supposed to live? How are we supposed to live, Micah? It's just coffee is up. Yeah. Uh, so anyway, are you seeing this? Are you feeling this? Uh, are you feeling this price? Where are you kind of seeing this play out in your life?

Micah Tomasella: [02:07:09] I mean, again, you know, I I mentioned earlier, you know, I literally saw my electricity bill pop up yesterday. And I was like, I mean, look, I like to keep it 71, 72 year round in the house, okay? I know I was having a conversation with a neighbor and she was like, I keep it 78. I was like, my wife would love that. My goodness. Absolutely not. So this is the little luxuries in life we let ourselves have of I want to be comfortable temperature wise when I'm in my own home, right? But I don't have a brand new home and so, you know, are my windows brand new? Do I have spray foam throughout the house to keep the heat out, right? So, I mean, I just saw my electricity bill for July and I was like, my goodness, gracious, what happened? I mean, it was just as hot last summer. Like I I don't remember it being this expensive. Well, the cost went up. And then the second thing, I love steak. I love beef. Why is it so expensive? What's the beef with the beef? So I would say electricity and beef are really getting to me right now. You like that craft coffee, right? The roast.

Josh Miller: [02:08:10] I'm a little snobby. Yeah, a little snobby.

Micah Tomasella: [02:08:12] And I'm and I'm not not snobby, but I'm not all the way over there either. But I mean, of course, the coffee thing I've noticed that too. Yeah, absolutely.

Josh Miller: [02:08:19] I know. I'm being a little, I'm obviously exaggerating a little bit, but I'm passionate about coffee. I would like to exaggerate away, brother. More the better. And, you know, it's it's a little ridiculous when the costs are getting up that high. But all right, but here's the the strange part. On paper, even things actually appear okay, which seems to have there's this disconnect from what we feel like we're experiencing, our friends are experiencing, and what it says on paper. So inflation is at about 3.5% right now. It's above what the Fed targets at around 2%, but you actually take out kind of food and energy, which we've talked about, and that's a big takeout, but, uh, you remove food and energy and it's about 2.6. So we're getting close. Unemployment is pretty low at 4.2% as of June. The economy is growing around 2.2%. The odds of a recession, according to US Bank, have actually declined quite a bit down to 25%. That used to over the past few years has actually, uh, been pretty high. The odds of recession being fairly high. So on paper, things look okay. Reports also say that wages are up or at least flat. Um, you know, that which should kind of combat inflation a little bit. But but I'm not sure everyone's experiencing that. There's, you know, some debate over where the increase is actually happening. You know, is this happening to just, uh, uh, the the ultra rich are getting richer and yet for kind of lower income, it's stable or declining. It's there's a lot of debate over where that increase or stability is at. And so, uh, but here's, here's kind of that's a lot of data. Here's the kicker here. Uh, I thought this was fascinating. Gallup, uh, has been asking, uh, Americans a question for 25 years. They've been polling Americans asking, is your financial situation getting better or worse? This spring, 55% of the people who were asked here said their financial situation is getting worse. Now, 55%, you can kind of, uh, take with that what you will, but that's the highest in 25 years. That's the that's the highest since since the in the history of them asking that question, it's the highest it's ever been. That means it's higher than the recession in 2008. That's higher than in 2020, the pandemic. More people now feel like they are sliding backwards financially than during the financial crisis or the pandemic, which is pretty wild. So even at minimum from a perception standpoint, people aren't feeling great even if on paper, we're like, it doesn't look that bad. And so it's really it's it's kind of an interesting dichotomy we have here. Well, one other study I just wanted to mention, uh, and I would love to get your thoughts here, but, uh, I was reading a Pew research, uh, study as well. Here's what people are concerned about. So there's this feeling generally of people sliding backwards financially. Specifically, the things that are they're most concerned about are health care costs, uh, food and consumer good prices. So like kind of just the stuff you buy for your home or just kind of regular purchases, housing costs, gas prices, electricity prices. So we've covered a lot of these, uh, over this already. What I think is fascinating that's really low on this list of concerns, the stock market. Uh, which if you would look at, uh, sort of what politicians are touting, even Trump himself have touted around why the economy is good right now, points to the stock market where it looks on in terms of general Americans, uh, vast majority of Americans are going, that's not as concerning to us as can I pay for health care? Uh, can I afford a house? Can I pay for electricity? And so I I wonder as well at times if there's a disconnect between what, uh, from a level of the government, and this I think happens across administrations and parties, if there's a disconnect between what the government views as important or a measure of success versus what regular Americans are experiencing or the pressure they're feeling on a day-to-day basis.

Micah Tomasella: [03:02:09] Yeah, I, Josh, it's a good point. I mean, the only thing that I would say, not like, uh, in in order to argue, but I would say if the stock market was really crashing and you asked this question, the stock market would be higher on the concerns list. So it's always going to be, we're always going to be kind of held hostage or maybe arrested in the moment to the issues that we're all experiencing. In this day and time, it's just more expensive to live. I think that that's what's difficult to wrap our mind. Yeah, what's kind of in your face right now is because like, yeah, it's, I mean, I got to pay my mortgage, I got to pay the electricity bill, I got to pay for gas because I got to drive my kids around, I got to drive to school, you know, to work, all these different things, right? I I need to buy groceries for my family. Those things, those everyday household items and goods continue to go up in price. And so it's just in your face a lot, right? Putting numbers to it is really helpful though, like what you did earlier of this feels more expensive, but unless you go and really read about it, it's like, okay, maybe it's always kind of been expensive. You kind of forget. Right. Right. But it but, um, yeah, I I'm hoping we can find a way to reverse this and, you know, let's dive into why that is because I think that there is a myriad of reasons. Decisions that were made many, many years ago and decisions that are being made right now are why we're seeing prices go up.

Josh Miller: [03:03:25] Yeah, because you'd want to go, how do we, well, how do we fix it? Which we'll get, I'll I'll just it's complicated. And we want it to be simple. We want to just lower inflation. Come on. Just do it. Figure it out. It's not quite that simple. But to your point on the stock market, it's a great one. I think the the thing people are worried about is the stuff that's in your face right now. So it's kind of the what's flashing red as this isn't working right now or this is so expensive. The stock market because it's been stable, not flashing red for people. But we do know that if the stock market was crashing, to your point, there'd be all sorts of negative effects. That unemployment rate would likely go up. Uh, there'd be all sorts of other issues in the economy and market that we would see if so we're grateful stock market has been good. Uh, but because of that, these more pressing prices at the grocery store type items are more pressing. But you and I who are farther away from retirement, for example, so we're investing in our retirement for the future. I, you know, to a certain extent, even when the the stock market is really high or really low, is that affecting me every day? It might be something that I'm worried about, but unless I'm about to retire, I'm about to start drawing from my retirement income, from my investments, that's not really an issue that's in your face as much. Like this every day, what we need to live, that's what's in our face. And, you know, we're not going to talk about this today, but that's going to be on the minds of voters heading into polls for midterms in November is why it just continues to be so expensive.

Josh Miller: [03:04:48] And that's why a lot of this new polling is coming out because the midterms coming up. People are wanting to know what are Americans concerned about because they that sets strategy for these political parties going into the midterms on how they're going to promise to fix it, right? Uh, and so it's interesting how all this stuff always lines up for that. So, okay, let me let me move on to why this is happening. And again, it's not one villain. It'd be easy to just to go, hey, this is a, uh, this is a Trump problem, this is a Biden problem, this is a singular policy problem. It's just not quite that simple. Um, because you do look at, uh, gas in particular, and that is way less an inflation issue as much as an Iran war issue. And we've seen that, you know, instability when it comes to, uh, oil availability around the world affects gas prices in in what feels like almost real time. I know there's some delay there. No doubt. Uh, but that that's a real deal. So that that was actually gas was actually cheaper this January than it was when the show launched in 2025, but then has now skyrocketed again, actually went up higher in May, has come back down a bit. Just a roller coaster. But as long as there's instability in the oil market and things around the world and the straight of moves and other places, it's going to create instability and price, uh, issues when it comes to gas. Now, beef, I think is a fascinating one. I didn't know a lot of this, but I thought I'd, uh, share a little bit here. Uh, the US herd of cattle is the smallest since it's been in since 1951. 70 years. Because of the drought. Because of the drought conditions, which we touched on earlier about drought areas that are prone to drought with these AI data centers. Like that plays into it, too. Yeah, drought leading to fires on grazing land, ranchers have sold off cattle. This is not, uh, to contrast, uh, oil prices. Cattle is slow. Uh, this stuff takes a long time to rebuild a herd because you actually, and it actually increases the problem in the short term. So if you want to build up your herd of cattle, you can't sell the cattle that you normally would because you actually need to hold them back to increase your overall, uh, stock size. And so it actually hurts on the short end to try and rebuild your the amount of cattle you have. Uh, it's it's complex, the whole whole world here and ecosystem around, uh, cattle. And if you want to learn more about cattle, I'm not going to tell you to watch a Taylor Sheridan directed show because it's not always filled with the best stuff. But if you do want to learn a little bit more about that world of cattle and ranching, turn on the majority of his of his shows and he'll give you a deep dive. Yeah, yeah. And then you can add, uh, tariffs into this, which we've touched on on the show a bunch. Uh, there's tariffs on imported beef. So even though US stocks are down, imports are now being tariffed. There's been a screwworm outbreak that stopped, uh, Mexican cattle shipments. Make it stop. Uh, a lot there. So there's a lot, again, not simple. That's kind of the point I want to make. Now, on the electricity rates, so why is that higher? It does point back to data centers when I was looking through this. Now, it's not all data centers, but there is an impact here that it's important for us to understand. Now, again, being in Texas, uh, we have a very different sort of system in the way our electricity grid works. It's independent from a lot of other states. And so you may not be familiar with something called, uh, PJM, but it's a grid that covers 13 states and 67 million people in the country. The way that it works in this grid in particular, they actually do auctions around, uh, they call it a capacity auction where essentially you have power plants almost on a retainer. They get paid to promise that they'll be available years from now. And whether or not they end up being run or used, it's that's crazy. It's a baked in cost. I had no idea. So they just had, uh, some recent auctions on this. In the most recent auction, data centers accounted for 40% of the grid usage estimated of the coming years. Probably makes sense. 6.3 billion out of 16.4 billion going to data centers. So it's it's hit the legal maximum of the auctions three years in a row, uh, or the last three auctions in a row. And so, uh, this does get passed on to the consumer because there's more demand for the electricity, prices go up. Even in Texas, which works differently, uh, the increased demand requires more construction, more transmission lines, and it's just it at least is murky in terms of if and what is getting passed on to consumers, but we've seen rates go up as well over the past couple years. Last one on just the what's happening here, tariffs are a real thing. Uh, and again, there's been a lot of volatility there. Supreme Court, uh, called, uh, one round of tariffs illegal. The administration right now is rebuilding them using other legal authorities. Temporary ones expired, new ones coming in soon. Uh, but there's an estimate right now from the Tax Foundation that says the average household this year will will have an increase in cost around $700. Now that gets debated as well. And so finding really accurate data here is actually difficult, but it's it's I think a pretty strong argument to say that there is some sort of cost effect on consumer goods, uh, due to tariffs that's a little hard to quantify at times. So any thoughts on any of that?

Micah Tomasella: [03:20:04] I mean, what I would say is is like I, I think there is a multiplicity of factors and that's why we haven't really been able to nail it down because I mean, we have to remember, um, this is a Republican and a Democrat problem. Like just to be fair, a lot of these prices has have risen under the Trump administration. I mean, and if you're in charge, you got to be held accountable for it. But I mean, we remember post COVID, 2021, 2022, 2023, we were seeing 20% inflation numbers month over month, right? I mean, it was stock market was crash, you know, crashing. I mean, it was it was a rough go of it. There haven't, there hasn't seemed to be an administration or a policy from a Republican or Democratic platform that has been able to solve this issue of it just seems like prices keep creeping up with no real relief in sight.

Josh Miller: [03:20:56] Yeah, and that's what the polling shows as well. If you look at, uh, Pew had, uh, again, a midterm report, like kind of what I was talking about that they just released. Uh, this reflects kind of Americans' thoughts on all of this. 37% say that Democrats handle the economy better. 36% say Republicans handle the economy better. So pretty split there. And then 25% say neither. Uh, so a quarter of the country just goes, none of you have this, neither of you have this figured out. Fair enough. Uh, which I think feels pretty accurate. You know. Yeah, I'm I'd probably I'd probably fall in that category. It doesn't feel like anybody's really got it together here. So, let me get, I want to kind of wrap us up here on this one. Uh, hopefully that was just some helpful information. The one thing I wanted to get across here, first of all, is just if you're feeling like you're falling behind right now, you're you're you're normal. Like there a lot of Americans are feeling this financial pressure and there is a lot of, when it comes to money, there's a lot of fear and shame that can get wrapped up into money into money. Yeah. And so I just would love to diffuse that today that go that and say that if if you're struggling financially, if you're feeling the pinch here, if you are, uh, maybe even feeling some, uh, even some shame around, I wish I should be doing better. I wish I was doing better financially. Yeah. Uh, it's okay that you don't have it all together right now. Uh, a lot of people feel like they don't have it all together right now. A lot of people feel behind right now. And so don't shame yourself for feeling like money is tight. Uh, if don't shame yourself for feeling like you're struggling a little bit right now, it's it there's a lot of people in that boat today. Everybody is feeling the pinch in in one way or the other. Now, secondly, we need to give ourselves grace. However, secondly, the Bible also gives us clear instructions not to worry about some of this stuff. Uh, you know, Matthew 6, do not be anxious about your life. Your heavenly Father knows, you know, knows your needs, know that you need them all, but seek first the kingdom of God. So what I love about that verse, first of all, is that he doesn't say that the needs aren't real. Yeah. Don't worry about anything. You're just kind of being overdramatic. You know, why would you worry about that? He's not saying he's not debasing the needs. He's saying, in the need, in the struggle, you don't have to worry that that God's there for you. He's going to provide for you and put your trust in the Lord rather than those things. And I think that's an important reminder at least for me when I'm facing struggle or finances are tight or whatever else is going on in life that to go, okay, that is real. The stress is real, maybe the anxiety is real. How do I take that and put my trust in the Lord in that moment? Any thoughts?

Micah Tomasella: [03:23:38] It's a good point, Josh. I, I also would say this, and I'm not sure if you were going to say this, so I don't, I don't want to, um, step on your toes here, but I, I also believe Connor and I on this podcast for the better part of a year and a half, more than that, have also really pushed against a victim mentality mindset. I would argue that a lot of the people, a decent amount of the people struggling right now in this economic environment would be struggling in any economic environment. I quote Dave Ramsey frequently. What happens in your house is more important than what happens in the White House. There are a certain amount of variables that we can take in our own lives to have a budget, to manage our finances well, to be good stewards of what God has given us, and to continue to be generous even when it does not make sense. When you submit everything to your heavenly Father, it is everything. That includes your pocketbook. Every dollar in your wallet, every amount of money invested in the stock market, Bitcoin, crypto, whatever, whatever you're invested in, right? Every dollar, every amount, every cent is God. It all belongs to him, right? So there is this concept of we're being called to be faithful despite these circumstances. And there are so many steps that can be taken in our own lives to say, okay, yeah, this is partially the economy, but maybe I could scale back XYZ, or maybe I could look at that job or do this thing or help in this way, right? Like there are ways that we can trust God and take action as well, even in a different or a difficult economic environment.

Josh Miller: [03:25:14] Yeah, I think what I hear you saying is some have little and some have a lot, but all are called to be good stewards of what we've been given. And that can look different depending on your your situation, but how do we be a good steward of what God has given us? What am I doing is more important today than what Trump is doing. Right? You know, like that's that has more bearing on my own life and my family's life. We have to be able to take some of that accountability too.

Josh Miller: [03:25:37] I think that's great. Yeah, the second thing I want to say to kind of wrap this up here is that you look at the history of the early church, they were never talking about a great economy. The history of the early church, there it was a bad economy almost across the board. So there's no point in the New Testament that we see where the church just enjoys fantastic economy. So prosperous, right? Yeah, yeah. So that means it's not unfamiliar. It means the Bible speaks to this for us. And again, our we live for a different kingdom with a with a different currency, with a different goal. And so we have to be reminded that yeah, even if financial stuff is unstable, that doesn't usurp our our ultimate purpose as a follower of Jesus. And so, you know, in Acts 11, the church in Antioch took a collection for believers in Judea they had never met and sent it before a famine fully hits. Acts 2 and 4, believers sell property as any had need. And they say that's where they get the line, there was not a needy person among them. Not because the economy was great, because the church stepped up. Acts 6, uh, their food program was kind of missing the Greek speaking widows, so they actually built a structure to fix that. So you see the church going out again, serving, uh, those in need. Second Corinthians 8 talks about, uh, the people in Macedonia being in a severe test of affliction and gave out of their extreme poverty. Uh, that's where the the line, God loves a cheerful giver comes from. Again, not he doesn't love a cheerful giver out of a great economic season. He loves a cheerful giver even in hard times to your point earlier. Galatians 6 talks about bearing another's burdens. Uh, 1 John 3, uh, you see your brother in need and don't do anything. How does God's love abide in you? And so my my my call here is just to say, there is an opportunity for us as the church right now that when things aren't great, what an opportunity for the church to step up and be a light and give hope and and take care of those in need right now. So, man, for just to clear to kind of clean this up, if you're struggling and you're in good company right now and there's no shame in it, uh, man, also be vulnerable about that. There may be some people that can help you. And then if if you're not struggling, if you're doing great right now, there's some people who are doing great right now. Look for those who aren't. Uh, there are a lot of people around you who aren't doing well. So if you have an opportunity, help someone with groceries, help someone with groceries, cover a tank of gas, give to give something to that neighbor in need. Let's step up right now. If and maybe the step up is small. Maybe you've got 10 bucks that you can be generous with. Use the 10 bucks to be generous. Let's take let's take advantage of this opportunity to show people the love of Christ and that our hope and our future is not, uh, you know, tied not tied to this economy.

Micah Tomasella: [03:28:26] I love it, Josh. You know, and and God does call us to be Jesus. In fact, tells us to be to be shrewd and to be wise and to understand the circumstance and situation in which we're helping someone. But I do think that like culture, this American culture sometimes, like you you know, you really did a good job bringing us back to center here of what scripture teaches, what Jesus teaches us because I I feel that we often times as believers can sometimes add caveats. Like, I'll help them if they are XYZ. You know, well, Jesus didn't have that mindset towards us, did he? Yeah. Unearned favor. He didn't wait for us to figure it out. He said, you know what? I'm not just going to tell you that I love you. I'm going to show you how much I love you. Grace, right? I'm not going to tell you to sacrifice. I'm going to show you what it actually looks like to sacrifice everything for those that I love, right? So in the same way, let's be radical in the way that we're generous with those around us. Let's try to remove some of these, well, the caveats. Well, if they were doing XYZ, well, if if if if my church was doing this, then I would give. Well, I I don't know. I I don't think that that, um, reflects the unmerited favor that we've been given by Christ. So if he's the author, the perfector of our faith, if he's our forerunner, if he's the one that we're looking at and looking towards, I think we should be radical in the way that we're generous with those around us. I think it's a great call out, Josh.

Josh Miller: [03:29:56] I love that. It's a great call out.

Micah Tomasella: [03:29:57] Well, guys, we were able to deep dive into two different stories today. We got to talk about data centers and about affordability. Connor's going to be back with us next week and we're excited to have him back as he's going to maybe add some more structure and let maybe a little bit more fun back into the episodes. Thanks for dealing with us this week. Uh, this was a wonderful episode. We appreciate you guys listening and we'll see you next time.

Speaker 1: [03:30:20] Thank you for joining us on this week's episode of Culture Brief, a Denison Forum podcast. All articles and videos mentioned in this episode will be linked in the show notes. If you want to help us reach more believers with truth in today's chaotic culture, please share this podcast around and leave a five-star rating and review. All episodes are produced by Sound of a Rose. For more information, you can visit soundofarose.com. See you next Thursday.